I would like information on Petronia Moctezuma. She is my direct line ancestor. I have very little information on her. I am just starting my search to learn more on her and her family.
Kelly
----- Original Message ----
From: mormonboy74
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 7:43:03 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Petronila de Moctezuma
Ive done extensive research on the descendants of DOna Petra if anyone needs any info. -Daniel
Hello Kelly! Some info I have on here is that she wasnt born in Mexico City, she couldnt have been. The royal lineage at least about 90% had left the capital in order to be protected. Petronila de Moctezuma, Princess of Mexico had to have been born somewhere else. It couldnt bee Aguascalientes. And Morelia wasnt found until 1579. So it must of have been Guadalajara or Durango or a place in Guanjuato that I can tremember th name of ther town it was found in 1542. Now about the Belista and Leonista contravarsy. These
papers are supposed to exist in the marriage of Petronila, she lists her genealogy to some extent. People have said she is the grandaughter of Moctezuma or the grtgrandaughter. No ones knows. She married in Mexico city, but I think she married somewhere else in el Estado of Mexico. around 1594.
This is the genealogy of the Belista beliefs.
(The people who believe she is from Isabel de Moctezuma and Hernando Cortes)
DOna Petronila de Moctezum, Princesa de Mexico 1550
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Just a few clarifications.
The title or style "prince" exists in Spain only for the heir of the Crown,
being Prince of the Asturias, of Gerona and of Viana. The royal children are
titled "Infante" or "Infanta". Portugal followed a similar rule.
One thing is that people might be princes on their own because of their
belonging to a royal family (that would be the case of Isabel de Moctezuma)
and another that they have the title "Prince". Like in England, where the
royal children are princes and princesses but only the Prince of Wales and
the members of the royal family who are created a "Prince Royal" (yes, it's
confusing) actually bear that title, like princess Anne, who was made Royal
Princess by her mother the Queen.
France had "Princes of the Blood" (members of the royal family and families
connected by blood to royalty, like the Prince of Conti and the Prince of
Condé), but the heir to the crown was called "Dauphin", the royal males
"Monsieur" and the royal females "Madame"
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Just a note...
I don't believe Petronila would be marrying about 1594, because that
would be about when her daughter, Francisca, should have been marrying
Lope Ruis de Esparza. Those couple's first few children are said to
have been born in the 1590s.
Of course, I haven't found hard evidence on this...but I would tend to
agree with those dates because they fit the picture. For example,
Salvador Ruis de Esparsa and Maria Vielma would have to have been born
about then to be married circa 1618.
Thanks,
Connie
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Mendez
Date: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:43 am
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Petronila de Moctezuma
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>
> Hello Kelly! Some info I have on here is that she wasnt born in
> Mexico City, she couldnt have been. The royal lineage at least
> about 90% had left the capital in order to be protected. Petronila
> de Moctezuma, Princess of Mexico had to have been born somewhere
> else. It couldnt bee
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Youre Right! For some reason I was thinking of Francisca Gabay! or Francisca Moctezuma, some state she didnt take her fathers name? Who know we dont ave any evidence. -Daniel
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Thanks for the information. It is exciting about the indexing program. It will open up so many new avenues for us all. It wil be nice to work from home or wherever one is. I look forward to learning so much more on my ancestors.
Right now it seems that one mystery is solved and we find two more.
Kelly
----- Original Message ----
From: Daniel Mendez
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:41:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Petronila de Moctezuma
Hello Kelly! Some info I have on here is that she wasnt born in Mexico City, she couldnt have been. The royal lineage at least about 90% had left the capital in order to be protected. Petronila de Moctezuma, Princess of Mexico had to have been born somewhere else. It couldnt bee Aguascalientes. And Morelia wasnt found until 1579. So it must of have been Guadalajara or Durango or a place in Guanjuato that I can tremember th name of ther town it was found in 1542. Now about the Belista and Leonista
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I have researched her ancestry and looked at all the different arguements.
The first fact is that she is a descendent of Moctezuma.
The second fact is that she is listed as a princess, a title which only goes to daughters and granddaughters.
The third fact is that these two facts in combination were well regarded to be true at the time that she was still alive and that these facts were not disputed.
The fourth fact is that the latest attempts to connect her by many genealogists have mistakes in them. They confuse two leonores or overlook info.
The line that John Schmal has on the internet is incorrect. That is a fact not an opinion, and I informed him of it one day when I met him at the library in west los angeles. He thought it was open to debate. I wrote down his error but I do not have it in front of me right now. OneI mistake in a line throws the whole descendency line off.
I strongly believe that Ines Moctezuma, daughter of Pedro Moctezuma(son of Moctezuma II) is nicknamed
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R.A.,
As a descendant of Petronila, I would like to see any original documents that you (or any other member of the group) are aware where Petronila is identified directly or indirectly as 'princesa', or by phrases such as: 'to be of common knowledge that she is grandaughter of Moctezuma..." etc. I've read that such documentation exists, but I have never actually seen it.
Jaime
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.A.Ricci"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:49:34 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Petronila Moctezuma
I have researched her ancestry and looked at all the different arguements.
The first fact is that she is a descendent of Moctezuma.
The second fact is that she is listed as a princess, a title which only goes to daughters and granddaughters.
The third fact is that these two facts in combination were well regarded to be true at the time that she was still alive and that these facts were not
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I dont think this is possible, Ines was daughter of Moctezuma not Pedro. Ines born ca. 1509 and died on November 1520.
Pedro was a half sister of Ines. He was born ca. 1511 and also died on June 1520. Many of the Aztec royals died in 1520.
I strongly support the Leonor claim but like you said people confuse this line beause there are 3 or 4 Leonor Moctezuma in the
family. One claim, Petronila is descended from Isabel and Hernan Cortes. The second, is she comes from Leonor and Valderrama and
the third is she is daughter of Leonor and Valderrama is daughter of Isabel and Hernan Cortes who is daughter of the emperor.
I have also heard of a document that had existed in the 1700s stating how Petronila is descended from Moxtezuma. But by now it may be lost
in the Archivo General de la Nacion or some old Library or in some building. -Daniel Camino
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I am embarrassed to say that I did not even check my notes before writing such a definitive statement. I went back and looked over my notes. In my notes I have written down how the two Leonors are not likely to be the mothers of Petronila. I did not know about the other Leoners. My notes don’t have Ines as Petronila, but as the possible mother of Petronila. In my notes I have written down that taken into consideration what we do know about Petronila, the fact that she was considered a granddaughter of Moctezuma II, that she had been referred to as a princess, I have written in my notes that it was most likely that she was a daughter of Pedro Moctezuma.
I am sorry to everyone that took my erroneous statement/conviction to heart. I promise to refer to my notes before I make any strong statements. In my family tree I have her as the end of the branch, with no parents but with accompanying notes with directions to Moctezuma II’s tree in case it is ever proven that she is his
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Donald Chipman, in "Moctezuma's Children," provides some information on Pedro Moctezuma's descendants, but I do not think his treatment is complete; the subject is to broad to have been completely incorporated in his book..
His figure 4.2 shows Pedro and three of his wives, or consorts:
(1) Ines Tiacapan, the mother of Martin Moctezuma, who had no heirs
(2) Catalina Quiasichititl, the mother of Diego Luis Moctezuma (he married Francisca de la Cueva y Valenzuela: 6 children)
(3) Doña Francisca (no issue)
In the text of Ch 4 and in its note #54, Chipman refers to children of four other women: Bartolome, Lorenzo, Maria, and Magdalena. He refers to AGI, Mexico, 764, Tabla II and Reflexiones sobre la Tabla VI. Mother's names arre given in Tabla II. [AGI = Archiva General de Indias, Seville]. This may be available through PARES, but I have not looked for it.
Pedro Moctezuma left a will; and it apparently still exists, but I do not know where (perhaps in the Mexican Archives). He names
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Petronila de Moctezuma