I just finished reading an article some of you may find of interest: "The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula" by Susan M. Adams, et al, in the Dec. 12, 2008 issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics, Vol. 83, pp 725-736. I don't pretend to understand all of it, but grasped enough to feel the reading worthwhile. I had to get the assistance of someone with access to a medical library to get it, but you all may have your own resources.
Rachel,
I found many articles on the family tree DNA web page, however because I am not one with a high degree of medical and scientific language, it's difficult for me to understand what I'm reading in language for the common man. I will keep reading and trying to wade my way through it, and if I manage to gleen just a tidbit, well it's better than not trying at all.
Thanks again,
Alicia
________________________________
From: RaquelRuiz
To: announce@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:28:08 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] DNA Article
I just finished reading an article some of you may find of interest: "The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula" by Susan M. Adams, et al, in the Dec. 12, 2008 issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics, Vol. 83, pp 725-736. I don't pretend to understand all of it, but grasped enough to feel the reading worthwhile. I had to
- Log in to post comments
I read through the article, most of it was over my head , I've been into the history of Spain for quite some time and have a good grasp on the peoples that settled in Spain, a flimsy grasp on the science of genetics though ! What I could understand I found very interesting, especially since I have a feeling that my Y DNA will come back J2 or E, again I could be totally wrong. The only problem I have is with the perceprtion of J and E being exclusivley Berber or Sephardic Jew. First I must say that I have no problem with either of these ethnic groups and would be proud to have them as my ancestors. The orgins of the aboriginal "Iberian" has never been solved and to me there is the very distinct possibility that either one of these could be their DNA. Speculation is that they came from either North Africa or the East, corresponding to the J and E Y DNA haplotype. According to the article, there is a large amout of the population that has these two types in Spain . Another puzzle, why
- Log in to post comments
I am not certain, but since I have been researching my own Northern Irish, I thought that I would put a couple cents in to this discussion. The DNA of Spanish origin may well be mixed with Celtic blood. To understand this, you must follow the O'Neill story on the "Wild Geese". Many of the Irish clans members were taken in by Spain when their boat was virtually politically stranded there after losing to the British. They intermixed with the population in Madrid. Spain was sympathetic to the Irish Catholics in their fight against the British, but then one King failed them in their time of need. Also, many a Spanish ship was lost on the Northern Coasts of Ireland. A short way away from my ancestral home of Rosbeg, Donegal, Ireland, many shipwrecked Spainards were hidden by the Northern Irish and smuggled back to Spain. It took them a long time to get back, possibility of some of those sailors took Irish wives back with them??? There is a long history between the countries. I
- Log in to post comments
Good stuff Maureen, the Irish \ Iberian connection goes back even farther than that. Have you ever heard of the "Irish Book of Invasions" ? In it , the decendants of a mythical figure named "Mil Espanie" ( the Spanish Soldier) conquer and settle Ireland by way of Spain, they were the Gaels. Even the ancient names of the countries are similar "Iberia" and "Hibernia" . The Scots also have a similar myth in which their ancestors "dwelt among savage tribes in Spain" before coming to Scotland. Genetic evidence bears some of this out as the western Irish and some Spaniards \ Basques are identical in DNA. The connections have been going on for eons, as well as the connection between Wales and Cornwall and Spain. The Roman historian Tacitus said that the Silures, a tribe in what is now Wales, had " swarthy skin and dark curly hair" like the native Spaniards. Funny thing is that the ancient Irish, British and Welsh never referred to them selves as "Celts" in antiquity, not did the Romans call
- Log in to post comments
Great information! I am going to check out the Invasion book and Facing the Ocean. Thanks for all the book plugging. Love a new read and had not realized that Spain was such a melting pot. Maybe even more than Mexico and the US!
- Log in to post comments
You are most welcome Maureen! I hope I didn't sound like a "know it all"...I get really excited about all this stuff, history, mythology and ancient connections. Spain was not only a mosaic of different peoples, but they ALL intermingled, granted it was less in ancient times due to the mountains that criss cross all of Spain, cutting some peoples off from others, but it still happened eventually. That is why the whole idea of "purity of blood" the Medieval Spaniards pushed was so ridiculous, the more noble the family the more mixed the blood due to dynastic marriages between Moorish grandees and Christian rulers, not to mention the Jews. So many notable Spaniards are said to have Sephardic backgrounds, from Saint Teresa of Avila to Miguel De Cervantes. Don't get me wrong; I'm very proud of my Spanish blood, whatever the vintage may be. I've traveled through Spain, what a warm, generous people, beautiful and kind. It's just that, as historians and genealogists, we are searching for the
- Log in to post comments
Robert--
You mention the Welsh. They too have a mysterious origin, and a language like no other. The singer Tom Jones once spoke about songs his father taught him, and I believe he said they may have had a Jewish origin. Some Welsh have a certain look and very curly hair, so I wonder if they had a Semitic origin.
Also, have you heard about that group of people that some Spanish explorers found on an island off the coast of Spain centuries ago? They were described as being very strange, very blonde and were trying to tell the officers about their myths of their origins, but the Spaniards weren't archeologists or geneticists, they were plundering conquerors, and they just killed these people and took their treasures. I wonder who those people were.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: El Peregrino
To: announce@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] DNA Celtic and Spain
Good stuff
- Log in to post comments
Robert---
No, you didn't bore with your thoughts about the people who settled Spain, and you are not the only educated person here that can't quite grasp the science of genetics. When I get my results, I will need lots of help with the interpretation. I plan to go through the Gary Felix site, to support his genetic studies of "Mexicans".
I think the groups you mentioned that were first in a region then disappeared just died out or migrated elsewhere, or were captured or dispersed after wars.
My father was descended from Basques (Olague), and I even went to a town in the Navarre region by that name. My father thought his Basque ancestors came from France, since his great-grandfather was known as "El Frances" but my research shows no French, only Espanol, as far back as the late 1600s in Zacatecas. I also had a good friend from Pamplona who said her ancestry was very mysterious, that the Basque language has no other similar roots elsewhere, and that some there said that perhaps
- Log in to post comments
DNA Article