I have been researching Victoriano Ramirez off and on and only had success indirectly. I have his fathers' name and the father's three brothers and a sister. I have his mom's brother's name and her parents, grandparents, and so on, but not her name. I have tracked the Lopez family in san miguel el alto and his father in the vicinity of San Julian. I have where victoriano was born but not a date. Is any one researching him?
I do not descend from him that I know of though I do descend from Juan Jose Ramirez and Maria de Jesus Aseves from San Miguel el alto.
Yo soy pariente de Victoriano Ramírez López “El Catorce”. El Catorce fue hijo de Carlos Ramírez y de Viviana López. He investigado muy a fondo su genealogía ya que estamos emparentados por el apellido López de los Reyes. La madre de El Catorce, Viviana López Zavala (nac. 04 de diciembre de 1864, San Miguel el Alto), fue hija de Francisco López Maciel y de María de Jesús Zavala Rocha (casados el 19 de febrero de 1851, San Miguel el Alto). Francisco López Maciel (nac. 24 de febrero de 1828/bap. 3 de marzo de 1828, Guadalajarita, San Miguel el Alto) fue hermano entero de mi tatarabuelo Inocencio López Maciel (nac. 3 de enero de 1838/bap. 7 de enero de 1838, El Rancho del Alto, San Miguel el Alto). Francisco e Inocencio López Maciel fueron hijos de don José Feliciano López Vásquez y de doña María Guadalupe Maciel Villalpando, quienes se casaron el 20 de agosto de 1821 en Jalostotitlán, previa una dispensa de consanguinidad en tercer grado igual.
Todas mis investigaciones de
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Hello Steven. Do you have any info on the marriage of el Catorce and any kids. My mom used to say that a son of El Catorce married her aunt. My mom is no longer with us to ask her for the name.
Miguel A Gutierrez
----- Original Message -----
From: PacoHernandez73@msn.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 9:40 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Victoriano Ramírez López “El Catorce”
Yo soy pariente de Victoriano Ramírez López “El Catorce”. El Catorce fue hijo de Carlos Ramírez y de Viviana López. He investigado muy a fondo su genealogía ya que estamos emparentados por el apellido López de los Reyes. La madre de El Catorce, Viviana López Zavala (nac. 04 de diciembre de 1864, San Miguel el Alto), fue hija de Francisco López Maciel y de María de Jesús Zavala Rocha (casados el 19 de febrero de 1851, San Miguel el Alto). Francisco López Maciel (nac. 24 de febrero de 1828/bap. 3 de marzo de 1828, Guadalajarita, San Miguel el Alto)
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Adrián Márquez Padilla
Si alguien esta interesado en ver el Acta de nacimiento de Victoriano Ramírez López, del registro civil la pueden encontrar en la siguiente dirección:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-21208-689-74?cc=1918187&w…
¿Sabe alguno de ustedes de dos medias hermanas de Victoriano de nombres Altagracia Padilla López y Elvira Padilla López..?
Saludos primos...
Adrían Márquez
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Muchas gracias Adrián Márquez por el detalle. Esa acta de Nacimiento en el Registro Civil, ya la había localizado. Nomás que por mi trabajo y el tiempo, olvidé comentar sobre dicha acta y anunciarla en Nuestros Ranchos. Pero ya que resucitaste el tema, permíteme proveerles a nuestros Primos aquí los textos literales de dos documentos referentes a mi tío abuelo en segundo grado, Victoriano Ramírez López, alias "El Catorce".
Como ya sabía la fecha de su nacimiento, no fue difícil localizar dicha Acta en el Registro Civil (Año 1892). Su acta literalmente dice lo siguiente:
"N.o 102. Nacimiento de Victoriano Placencia [sic, Ramírez]
----- En la Villa de San Miguel el Alto a 25 veinte y cinco de Marzo de 1892 mil ochocientos noventa y dos a las 10 diez de la mañana y ante el encargado del registro civil compareció Carlos Ramírez de 31 treinta y un años, casado, labrador del Rincón de Chávez de este municipio y dijo que el día 23 veinte y tres del corriente a las 9 nueve de la
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Victoriano Ramírez López y Crescencia Macías Padilla se casaron en la Parroquia de San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel el Alto, el día sábado, 17 de junio de 1916.
Su acta de matrimonio literalmente dice:
"Victoriano Ramírez con Crescencia Macías. ----- En la Yglesia parroquial de San Miguel el Alto, a diecisiete de Junio de mil novecientos dieciséis, yo el Pbro. Benito A. Retolaza cura amovible de esta parroquia, previo la información jurídica, la cual consta en el libro cuarenta y seis a fojas ciento treinta y cuatro, después de corridas las tres moniciones prescritas por el Santo Concilio de Trento, practicadas las demás diligencias de derecho, habiéndose confesado y comulgado y no resultando impedimento alguno casé y velé in faciae Ecletiae a Victoriano Ramírez, soltero, de veintitrés años de edad, originario y vecino de Buenavista, hijo legítimo de Carlos Ramírez y de Bibiana López, que viven; con Crescencia Macías, doncella, de diecisiete años de edad originaria y vecina del
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Hello Steve,
Thank you very much for your information on Victoriano Ramirez. My wife's grandfather knew and admired Victoriano Ramirez. Paolo, her grandfather, had a portrait of Victoriano standing next to his horse. I was happily surprised to see this portrait hanging in his house. He enjoyed talking about him. He gave me the portrait in front of witnesses but I did not take it down out of respect for him. He was almost a hundred years old at the time. When an uncle of my wife heard that he had given me the portrait, he took down the portrait and said that it was now his. He later felt guilty and let me borrow it for a few months. This happened over twenty years ago. This portrait is now in Northern California. My mother in law is also related to Victorianos mother.
R A Ricci
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Estimado Adrian Marquez,
Muchas gracias por compartir esta informacion sobre la acta de Victoriano Ramirez.
Yo he buscado esta acta por mucho tempo. Aunque yo si creia que su padre se llama Carlos Ramirez, me molestaba no tener la acta porque hay personas que dicen que era hijo de otra persona. Con esta acta ya no hay ninguna duda sobre su informacion.
Muchismos gracias,
R A Ricci
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Gracias por compartir esa informacion. El papa de Victoriano fue Carlos Ramirez Ramirez bautizado el siete de Noviembre 1861 hijo de Mariano Ramirez y Candelaria Ramirez. Abuelos Paternos: Pablo Ramires y Ynes Escoto, Abuelos Maternos: Eduwige Ramirez y Anita Ortega. La mayoria de los Ramirez nacieron en un pueblito llamado Sarteneja pegado a Ricon de Chavez y Buenavista en San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco.
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Adrián Márquez Padilla
Continuando con el tema,gracias a Ismael Márquez que nos informa acerca de los padres de Carlos Ramirez Ramirez que fueron Mariano Ramirez y Candelaria Ramirez, los abuelos paternos: Pablo Ramires y Ynes Escoto
Pablo Ramires (José Pablo de San Román Ramírez Rueda, Bautizado el 2 de abril 1797 - San Miguel El Alto, Jalisco, México, hijo de Juan Joseph Ramírez de Hermosillo y de Anda Altamirano y Juliana Fernández de Rueda. Casado el 27 de mayo 1824, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México, con Inés Escoto Flores )
Acta de matrimonio: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18573-57531-31?cc=1874591&wc…
María Ygnes Escoto Flores, Nacida el martes, 19 de abril de 1808 en Agua de Obispo, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco (México), Hija de Rafael de Escoto y Bartola Flores. Abuelos paternos: Mariano de Escoto y María Barajas... Abuelos Maternos: Jose Flores y Antonia de Alva..
Bautismo de Maria Ynes: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1
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Disculpen si aparece un poco incompleto este reporte, pero para una presentar una síntesis rápida…aquí está esto.
__________________________________________________________________________
Antepasados de Victoriano Ramírez López, "El Catorce"
Las Primeras Cinco Generaciones en resumen (Sin notas completas ni fuentes)
Ancestors of Victoriano Ramírez López, "El Catorce"
Generation No. 1
1. Victoriano Ramírez López, "El Catorce", born 23 Mar 1892 in El Rincón de Chávez, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México; died 17 Mar 1929 in Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México. He was the son of 2. Carlos Ramírez Ramírez and 3. Viviana López Zavala. He married (1) Crescencia Macías 17 Jun 1916 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México. She was born 1899 in El Rincón de Chávez, San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco, México, and died Unknown. She was the daughter of Teodoro Macías and Pomposa Padilla.
More About Victoriano Ramírez López, "El Catorce":
Note: El General Victoriano Ramírez López “El
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Congratulations
Estimado Steve,
You have done magnificent work. I thank you so much for sharing. My desire to research "Victoriano el Catorce" was because I wanted to know exactly how he was related either to me or my wife. My wife's grandfather had stated that he knew him and that not only was he a friend but a relative also. You have provided the proof that I could not find. Her grandfather descends from Francisco Madrid de la Rocha and Maria Lucrecia Vasquez. Do you have more information on this couples ancestors? I had completed a couple more generations on Maria Lucrecia Vasquez line but hit a roadblock on Francisco Madrid de la Rocha.
I descend from a branch of the Ramirez from San Miguel el Alto but I am going to have to look at more closely to see if there is any connection. I descend from a Nicolas Ramirez.
I want to reward you for this work. I am going to treat you to dinner to celebrate.
Keep up your excellent and inspirational work primo,
Rick
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Gracias por los elogios y la ayuda que estos datos les puedan brindar a los que estén interesados en Victoriano Ramírez López, “El Catorce”.
Glad they were useful to you. What I posted was an experiment…an exercise to see how it would look. It was ONLY the first FIVE generations of his ancestry. And yes!!! I have done more research. I am amplifying the basic report and “playing” with options, features, items to include, sources, notes, and images. It would look nicer as a PDF with pictures and transcribed documents and pedigree charts. Which of course gave me the idea, “¿Por qué no?” An expanded report with a table of contents indicating each of the generations, specific ancestors in bold print, all the corresponding sources, images, and documents, would not only make a great resource for Nuestros Ranchos, but also of a book. It has given me ideas as to how to share/publish what I have researched.
This gave me the idea to begin a series called “LAS GENEALOGIAS DE ALTEÑOS
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En lo que se trata a Victoriano Ramírez López, “El Catorce”…his direct paternal ancestry presents us with the correction of a widely published error which I want to bring out to the light so it can be demolished.
In Generation 5, ancestor #16, “Juan-Joseph Miguel Ramírez-Martín, born 7 May 1754 in La Cajuela, San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, México. He was the son of Miguel Ramírez-Martín and María-Teresa Márquez.” That is CORRECT, but most have INCORRECT data on him and beyond him…is a mystery!!! The direct paternal ancestry of Ramírez…viene de un “hijo de padres no conocidos”…so there it ends.
You see in the marriage record of Miguel Ramírez-Martín and María-Teresa Márquez in 1744 in San Juan de los Lagos, it clearly reads that Miguel Ramírez-Martín was “hijo de padres no conocidos”—they are not mentioned at all. Miguel was mentioned in his marriage acta as “Miguel MARTÍN” and other times as “Miguel Martín del Campo”. I believe his natural mother was a Martín del Campo. Several
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Thank you again for sharing Steve,
I have a possible correction or maybe I am in error, plus a few other facts.
First the discrepancy
I have Jose Francisco Madrid de la Rocha as the son of Josef Andres Madrid de la Rocha and his wife Antonia Teresa Rangel (you have him as the son of another Francisco Madrid de la Rocha.)
Now for the additions:
1) Jose Damacio de Guadalupe c. 17dec1803 married to Maria Viviana Hernandez on 7feb1842 in San Miguel el Alto
2) Ma.Josefa Rocha married on 27apr1811 to Marcelino Lupercio in San Miguel el Alto
3) Jose de Jesus Rocha c.1nov1801 married on 9may1821 to Estefana Reynoso in Jalostotitlan
4) Maria Francisca Rocha c.18apr1799 married on 18Jan1824 to Agustin Padilla in Jalostotitlan
5) Ma.Bacilia Rocha married Dionisio Sanchez on 27oct1807 in Jalostotitlan
6) Ma. Rafaela Rocha c. 7nov1794 in Arandas and married to Jose Marcos Zavala (Sabala) on 28jul1811 in Jalostotitlan
7) Maria de San Jose Rocha c. 29sep1805
Jose Damacio de Gpe Madrid de la
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This descendancy is not complete. The major focus in its compilation was to connect Jose Damacio Madrid de la Rocha Vasquez to my wife's maternal grandmother, Margarita Rocha Gutierrez.
Jose Damacio de Guadalupe Madrid de la Rocha Vasquez
Baptized 17/Dec/1803 in SanMiguel el Alto (hijo de Jose Francisco Madrid de la Rocha ( originalmente Rocha de la Madrid) Rangel y Maria Lucrecia Vasquez Diaz
Married twice,
First marriage on 10/Nov/1825 in San Miguel el Alto to Maria de Jesus Gonzalez y Rodriguez ( hija de Manuel Gonzalez y Maria Josefa Rodriguez)
1) Teodocia Madrid de la Rocha ( I believe she is from the first marriage)
Second marriage on 7/Feb/1812 to Maria Viviana Hernandez Ibarra (hija de Domingo Hernandez Gamino Llamas y Maria Gertrudis Elias Ibarra Plasencia)
Issue from 2nd marriage:
1) Cecilo Rocha married on 11/May/1870 in San Miguel el Alto, Jalisco to Petra (Petronila) Aldana ( hija de Jose Manuel Aldana Lopez y Maria Trinidad Ramirez y Martin) (Jose Manuel es hijo de
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I suspect that Andres de la Rocha is the son of another Francisco Madrid de la Rocha.
RA Ricci
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Hello Steve,
I believe that your explanation of the Ramirez Martin last names is correct. This same explanation is used in my records to explain a line of the Lomelin De La Cruz married also to a Marquez. This marriage actually gave a partial explanation of how they were related so the padre desconocidos grandfather is revealed. A full explanation of the relationship between bride and groom wasn't given but did state that they were 3rd cousins which leads to skipping a generation for the groom. His grandfather is listed only as Lomelin with no first name but we can deduce who this unknowns grandfather by the relationship degree given.
Another case of padres desconocido is the one of Francisco Madrid de la Rocha Rangel I remember seeing a record that said that but then I found the marriage dispensation that lists his parents.
My wife also has a Ramirez Martin ancestral line about the same time and same place but in this case the father Jose Maria Ramirez is the one with padres
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I went back and looked at my information and my roadblock is not on Francisco Madrid de la Rocha, but his father Andres Madrid de la Rocha. A few years back I had originally had Francisco as the son of another Francisco but I corrected this data when, thanks to Claudia, I found their marriage dispensation. I believe that we both originally may have been misinformed by Jaime Holcombe. I found the marriage dispensation with the same film # as Salvador Clemente De La Torre' s marriage dispensation. (1787 film # 168072), (image 237). I was sidetracked and have never printed out the dispensation or read it entirely. I forgot completely about it and had only added Andres and his wife to my family tree. Lucrecias info in my tree is only what was in their marriage record. I will print the dispensation and decipher it hopefully this week. I bet I was so happy to find Salvador Clemente de la Torre s marriage dispensation that I put francisco and Lucrecias aside and forgot to get back to it
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Mariano Gonzalez leal names the parents of Victoriano. He has a different name, carlos, for the father than other people have that claim to be his nephews and nieces. they claim the father's name is gabriel ramirez. Does anyone have anything else to add? does anyone have a marriage record of Victoriano's marriages?
R.A.Ricci
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Victoriano Ramírez López “El Catorce”