List Members,
I would appreciate help in translating the side bar information on this marriage record...
Image 33 of 241 ... there appears a date possibly of 25 Jan 1682 on this marriage record dated 22 Apr 1680 for Machairo de Espitia and Simona de Silva...
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12446-30363-60?cc=1410092&…
I have located bapt records with his couple being noted as the parents, but only the above noted marriage record.
There is also a death/burial record for Simona De Silva buried 17 Aug 1719 ...
All records are for Aguascalientes...
Thank you,
Pat Silva Corbera
Pat,
Macario de Espitia and Simona de Silva were married 22 April 1680 in
Aguascalientes. The marginal note says they were veiled (se velaron) almost
two years later 25 Jan 1682. Macario de Espitia was buried in
Aguascalientes 1 May 1732. I have identified six children for this couple:
Isabel, Michaela, Andrés, Jacinto, Salvador and María Teresa de Espitia.
Where can I find the baptismal record of Simona de Silva?
BILL FIGUEROA
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Bill,
Thank you...what is to be "vailed" ? Would that "vailing ceremony," have a vailing/marriage record online? This term is unfamiliar to me.
I have located the following children hoping that their AP and AM would be mentioned, but they were not...
I have Michaela, Ysabel, Andres and Salvador. I will search for Jacinto and Maria Teresa. that you mentioned.
Simona's burial record date is 17 Aug 1719...I didn't have Macario's burial date, I'll look that up.
To date I have not located birth/bapt records for either Macario or Simona.
I learned of their names from their daughter Ysabel's bapt record. Ysabel is my husband's 5th greatgrandmother who is married to Diego de Aguayo/Aguallo (m.12 Jan 1699 Nochistlan).
Are you linked to this family?
Thank you,
Pat Silva Corbera
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Figueroa"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 12:38:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros
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Pat,
I hope you don't me answering for Bill. Here are a few links to get you
acquainted with the ceremony.
http://hispanic-ancestors.blogspot.com/2012/02/veiling-ceremony.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OicTTrozME
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/16074
http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=velar
Bill and Pat,
I also descend from Espitia/Aspitia. I finally understand why my ancestors
used so many surnames. Nicolás Macias Espitia and Ana Muñoz had children in
Lagos de Moreno between 1645 and 1664. Sometimes they used the surname
Torres. After looking at records in Aguascalientes I see Hernando de Torres
Espitia married Juana Vásquez Macias alias Juana Vasquez de Retamosa 11 Jan
1615 in Aguascalientes film 299421. This makes me think that my ancestor
was their son Nicolás Torres Vásquez baptized 2 May 1622 film 299421. Is
Macario de Espitia related to Hernando de Torres Espitia?
Armando
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:
>
>
> Bill
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Hi Armando,
I always value your input, your comments are always welcomed.
As for Macario de Espitia being related to Hernando de Torres Espitia it's possible, but we need to located documents that reference/associate them with the various name combinations found in each family.
Tomorrow I'm going to try and locate the marriages of Macario and Simona's offspring... I realize that even if I find their grandchildren, the reference, if any, to AP and/or AM will simply refer to Macario and Simona... it's the spouse connections that may lead to a different branch of Espitias/Munoz/Macias/Torres etc.families...possibly linking Macario and Hernando's families. I'll also check the time line...
Thank you for the links to the very informative information about "veiling. " Very interesting.
Wonder why Macario and Simona's "veiling," took place about 2 years after their 1680 marriage...
If the church didn't recognize a marriage being "completed until the
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Thanks Armando for the links, they are all very informative, I never knew the true meaning of velados.
Alicia
________________________________
From: Armando
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of 241
Pat,
I hope you don't me answering for Bill. Here are a few links to get you
acquainted with the ceremony.
http://hispanic-ancestors.blogspot.com/2012/02/veiling-ceremony.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OicTTrozME
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/16074
http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=velar
Bill and Pat,
I also descend from Espitia/Aspitia. I finally understand why my ancestors
used so many surnames. Nicolás Macias Espitia and Ana Muñoz had children in
Lagos de Moreno between 1645 and 1664. Sometimes they used the surname
Torres. After looking at records in Aguascalientes I see Hernando de Torres
Espitia married Juana Vásquez Macias
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Pat and Armando,
I think the links provided by Armando explain the veiling ceremony quite accurately. Most veilings in Aguascalientes were performed during the wedding ceremony (casados y velados) although in some instances the veiling ceremony was performed later (casados y no velados). As the marriage blessing was considered a celebration, it was not allowed during Advent and Lent (that are considered penance periods). Therefore, if the marriage was celebrated during these periods, a separate veiling ceremony (velación) was required to complete the marriage sacrament. That explains why sometimes marriage and veiling happened during the same day and sometimes on different dates. Most often the priest recorded the wedding and veiling ceremonies in the same book (Libro de Matrimonios) either as an annotation next to the wedding or as a separate record. I have not found any veilings recorded in separate parish books in Aguascalientes.
Macario de Espitia was baptized 21 Jan 1659 in
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Bill,
Your posting left me speechless... I have looked for Macario's birth/baptism info but didn't find anything and here you not only supply that information but much more.
Thank you so much for all this added information.
I certainly enjoyed the links that Armanco provided for explaining the veiling ceremony. I now will pay more attention when viewing marriage records looking for a reference to "casados y velados," or casados y no velados).
Do you think that one of the names you mentioned for Juana Gonzalez being Juana de la Cerda may be a reference to her association with the de la Cerda nobles that descend from Fernando de la Cerda, Infante d'Castile and his wife Branca de Franca?
Last evening I viewed the baptism record for Nicolas Torres Vasques (bapt 02 May 1622 Sagrario, Aguascalientes Image 18 of 324) and found it interesting that only a Godmother (Madinha) a Luisa de Avila (widow) was mentioned. I also thought that the translation of Hernando
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Bill and Armando,
Bill, In your previous posting you mentioned the following...
"Macario de Espitia was baptized 21 Jan 1659 in Aguascalientes [ Film 0299421 Baptisms 1616-1660 Aguascalientes ] and buried 1 May 1732 [ Film 299856 Defunciones 1620-1752 Aguascalientes ]. He was the son of Bartolome de Espitia and Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda, Juana de Espinosa, Juana Lopez de Elizalde, Juana Gonzalez Lisardi). The parents of Bartolome de Espitia were Francisco de Espitia and Francisca de Quiroga."
Bill, did you actually locate and view Macario's bapt record ?
I accessed the Aqauscalientes films, No Baptisms records for 1611 - 1660, but one for 1616 - 1662...so I viewed that one, it didn't have a film number so I couldn't verify it with the film # you provided...
Here's my findings...
1. I couldn't locate a bapt record for Macario for 21 Jan 1659...very difficult for me to read....
2. I did locate something rather interesting last
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Pat,
I've looked at what you have questions about.
1. This is the same as number four. The person that input the record wrote
it incorrectly because the priest had too much ink so it is hard to read
the surname. It does not say Gijondes. The L is wrote in the style of the
era and it is Lizarde. It states the parents are Bme de Aspitia (Espitia) y
Juana Lizarde (Elizalde) Padrinos Sebastian de Espinosa y Ana Garcia
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-51426-17?cc=1410092&…
2. This record states that Isabel de Aspitia is the daughter of Francisco
de Aspitia and Francisca de Quiroga.
Armando
On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Bill and Armando,
>
>
> Bill, In your previous posting you mentioned the following...
>
> "Macario de Espitia was baptized 21 Jan 1659 in Aguascalientes [ Film
> 0299421 Baptisms 1616-1660 Aguascalientes ] and buried 1 May 1732 [ Film
> 299856 Defunciones 1620-1752 Aguascalientes ]. He was the son of Bartolome
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Armando,
Thank you.
I was getting confused by seeing marriage and baptism records on the listing for Bautismos 1616 - 1662 No mention of marriages being included in this grouping of records.
Ranchos Members...
Note: If you're research Aguascalientes Batch # M604761 & Batch # C604761 Film # 299421 these records can be found at Mexico - Catholic Church Records --Sagrario -- Aguascalientes Bautismos 1616 - 1662.
Pat Silva Corbera
Tracy, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Armando"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:35:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of 241 / Macario de Espitia
Pat,
I've looked at what you have questions about.
1. This is the same as number four. The person that input the record wrote
it incorrectly because the priest had too much ink so it is hard to read
the surname. It does not say Gijondes. The L is wrote in the style of the
era and it is Lizarde. It
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Pat,
I have been researching my lines in Aguascalientes for about ten years and have been through most microfilms and online records for the 16th and 17th centuries. My database includes more than 15,000 individuals, not all of them are my ancestors but most of them linked by family ties.
The entry for the baptism of Macario de Espitia can be found in the 1st. book of Baptisms and Marriages of Aguascalientes [ Bautismos y Matrimonios, 1616-1662. Parroquia de la Asunción de Aguascalientes. Image 215 of 324 ] The record reads as follows:
Al margen: "Macario Spañol"
"En veinte y uno de enero año de mil y seiscientos y sinqta
y nueve Baptise y puse los SStos. olios a Macario hijo de Bme. de
Espitia y Juana Lisardi* fueron sus padrinos Sebastian
de Spinosa y Ana Garcia y lo firme *Lisardi
[firma] Bme. de Soto
y Carvajal"
The
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Pat,
I have not traced Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda) lineage to determine whether or not she is a descendant of the De la Cerda nobles that descend from Fernando de la Cerda, Infante d'Castile, and his wife Branca de Francia. I have found the compounded surname López de la Cerda in early records of Aguascalientes, San Luis Potosí and Jalisco. The earliest in my database is Agustín López de la Cerda, who married Lucía Rodríguez de Victoria 13 Nov 1635 in San Luis Potosí. His son Agustín López de la Cerda (el mozo) married María de Isla y Sotomayor 3 June 1667 in Aguascalientes. His daughter Josepha López de la Cerda married Isidro Martín de Sotomayor, probably in Aguascalientes, and Simona López de la Cerda married Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor in Teocaltiche. Simona and Nicolás lived in Sierra de Pinos and had children in Aguascalientes. So far I have not tried to link Juana de la Cerda to these families, but I feel that she was probably related.
My ancestor Don Luis de
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Hello Bill
I had josefa ramirez Rodriguez Lopez de la cerda
Married to jose isidro martin de sotomayor Islas I did have in my notes that her mother has Rodriguez as a surname. I do not recall or have in my notes why I also listed Ramírez as a surname. Did josefa and her siblings marry Martinez de sotomayor isla siblings.
Thanks Rick a Ricci
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 26, 2012, at 6:35 PM, "Bill Figueroa" wrote:
> Pat,
>
> I have not traced Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda) lineage to determine whether or not she is a descendant of the De la Cerda nobles that descend from Fernando de la Cerda, Infante d'Castile, and his wife Branca de Francia. I have found the compounded surname López de la Cerda in early records of Aguascalientes, San Luis Potosí and Jalisco. The earliest in my database is Agustín López de la Cerda, who married Lucía Rodríguez de Victoria 13 Nov 1635 in San Luis Potosí. His son Agustín López de la Cerda (el mozo) married María de Isla y Sotomayor 3
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Hi Rick,
The parents of Josefa López de la Cerda were Agustín López de la Cerda and Lucía Rodríguez de Victoria, married 13 Nov 1635 in San Luis Potosí, SLP. Her paternal grandparents (abuelos paternos) were Francisco López and Francisca de los Angeles, and her maternal grandparents (abuelos maternos) Antonio Rodríguez and Catalina de Victoria, married 1 Jun 1601 in Pátzcuaro, Michoacán. [Source: Genealogía de Nochistlán Antiguo Reino de la Nueva Galicia en el Siglo XVII según sus Archivos Parroquiales, by José Luis Vázquez Rodríguez de Frías]
Josefa López de la Cerda married Isidro Martín de Sotomayor, her brother Agustín López de la Cerda (el mozo) married María de Isla y Sotomayor, and her sister Simona López de la Cerda married Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor. Isidro, María and Nicolás were brothers and sisters. Both Isidro and Nicolás used their father's surname "Martín de Sotomayor" while their sister María preferred "de Isla y Sotomayor".
The answer to your question is YES
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Thank you Bill
I looked up the info that you provided in Jose Luis s book. It felt great to add a couple more generations to my tree.
Thanks again. Rick A Ricci.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 27, 2012, at 9:01 AM, "Bill Figueroa" wrote:
> Hi Rick,
>
> The parents of Josefa López de la Cerda were Agustín López de la Cerda and Lucía Rodríguez de Victoria, married 13 Nov 1635 in San Luis Potosí, SLP. Her paternal grandparents (abuelos paternos) were Francisco López and Francisca de los Angeles, and her maternal grandparents (abuelos maternos) Antonio Rodríguez and Catalina de Victoria, married 1 Jun 1601 in Pátzcuaro, Michoacán. [Source: Genealogía de Nochistlán Antiguo Reino de la Nueva Galicia en el Siglo XVII según sus Archivos Parroquiales, by José Luis Vázquez Rodríguez de Frías]
>
> Josefa López de la Cerda married Isidro Martín de Sotomayor, her brother Agustín López de la Cerda (el mozo) married María de Isla y Sotomayor, and her sister Simona López de la Cerda married
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Hi Bill,
Now that the Lopez de la Cerda have been brought into this conversation I
wanted to ask if you or anyone in the NR forum has any information on the
grandparents of Phelipe Lopez De La Serda Marin , who married Juan Perez de
Frias Flores on May 29 1749 (vecinos de Rio Chico, Teocaltiche). I have
Phelipe's parents listed as Matheo Lopez de la Serda and Jacinta Marin.
Does anyone have information on Matheo and Jacinta's lineage?
Thanks and I look forward to your response.
Regards,
Juan Aguayo
On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Bill Figueroa wrote:
> Pat,
>
> I have not traced Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda) lineage to
> determine whether or not she is a descendant of the De la Cerda nobles that
> descend from Fernando de la Cerda, Infante d'Castile, and his wife Branca
> de Francia. I have found the compounded surname López de la Cerda in early
> records of Aguascalientes, San Luis Potosí and Jalisco. The earliest in my
> database is Agustín López de la Cerda, who
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There is a Maria Magdalena Lozano Martinez aka maria martinez lozano married to a Miguel Lopez de la cerda that fits the timeframe in Aguascalientes.
R A Ricci
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 27, 2012, at 8:57 AM, Juan Aguayo wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> Now that the Lopez de la Cerda have been brought into this conversation I
> wanted to ask if you or anyone in the NR forum has any information on the
> grandparents of Phelipe Lopez De La Serda Marin , who married Juan Perez de
> Frias Flores on May 29 1749 (vecinos de Rio Chico, Teocaltiche). I have
> Phelipe's parents listed as Matheo Lopez de la Serda and Jacinta Marin.
> Does anyone have information on Matheo and Jacinta's lineage?
>
> Thanks and I look forward to your response.
>
> Regards,
> Juan Aguayo
>
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Bill Figueroa wrote:
>
>> Pat,
>>
>> I have not traced Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda) lineage to
>> determine whether or not she is a descendant of the De la Cerda nobles that
>>
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Bill,
Thank you so much for sharing all this wonderful information with me.
As I have stated before researching my husband's Mexican ancestry has been a challenge, but I am determined to give it my full attention as I have done with researching my own Portuguese roots.
Thank you for the complete translation of the various documents in this Simona De Silva exchange.
When trying to locate the baptismal record of Macario de Espitia I became lost when viewing what I thought were Baptism records when so many of the records were actually marriages.
Armando did locate the record link and from there I was able to view the document.
I have printed out the complete translation that you have provided and will use it as a training tool.
Off Topic - My maternal Portuguese line links directly with a Dom Raimundo Garcia Portocarreiro, he is my 24th GGF born about 1090... Other surnames that you mentioned Da Valos (of France) and Saavedra also appear in my
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Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of 241