Published by GARY –
Genealogy Research

hola
un cordial saludos
tengo algunas preguntas:

tengo entendido que ana franca gabay de moctezuma esposa de lope ruiz de esparza
es hija de martin de navarro y de petronila de moctezuma,ya que existe documento
que lo comprueba esa relacion hasta petronila de moctezuma tengo documentado.
El detalle es que he visto varios comentarios de varios investigadores y historiadores en la red donde se menciona que petronila de moctezuma es hija de diego arias de sotelo y leonor de balderrama de moctezuma.

Existe algun documento donde se menciona esta relacion?

solo necesitaria ese documento para poder comprobar que petronila de moctezuma es hija de diego arias de sotelo y leonor de valderrama de moctezuma?

las lineas de diego arias de sotelo y leonor valderrama de moctezuma por lo que veo ya estan comprobadas ya existe un arbol desde leonor valderrama hasta el emperador moctezuma ll.

necesitos solo ese enlace
alguin me puede ayudar?
se los agradeceria mucho

que tengan un buen dia
saludos

Comment

Dear Enrique,

You are correct that it is the burial record of Ana Fancisca De Gabai, but you are incorrect as to what it says about her husband. This is the burial record of Ana Francisca de Gabai, wife of Lope Ruiz de Esparza.

Thanks for the image,
Rick A. Ricci

Published by GARY – Thu, 2015-01-15 07:19 | Permalink

Comment

Edgar Olguin Diaz
buenos dias miembros NR
en alguna ocacion me encontrer que un miembro de NR
PUBLICO UNA TRANSCRIPCION DE UN DOCUMENTO DONDE MENCIONAN
LAS CARACTERISTICAS DE DON LOPE RUIZ DE ESPARZA COMO ERA EN SU FISICO Y LUGAR DE ORIGEN Y RESIDENCIA
COMO PUEDO ENCONTAR ESTE DOCUMENTO ?
SE LO AGRADEZCERIA MUCHO MIEMBROS NR
SALUDOS

Comment

El documento esta en la bibliotheca se la Iglesia de los Mormones en West Los Angeles, Santa Monica Blvd. yo vi el documento hace UNOs Anos. El documento dice que ya tenia dos Anos en lo que ahora nombramos Mexico. El documento tambien decia que estaba casasdo con la nieta (bisnieta?) de Moctezuma.

R.A.Ricci

Comment

Edgar Olguin Diaz

R.A. Ricci por casualidad no tienes en archivo el documento ?

o la pagina donde se encuentre digitalizado ese documento ?

o si me podrias orientar como encontrarla

Comment

Yo vi el documento el ultimo dia antes de que cerraron la bibliotheca por dos anos. Cuando abrieron la bibliotheca de nuevo lo pusieron en otro lugar y ya no he podido encontrarlo.

R.A.Ricci

Published by R.A.Ricci (not verified) – Fri, 2014-01-03 15:29 | Permalink

Comment

El senor Guillermo Teresa de Tovar tenia una copia de este documento y el escribio palabra por palabra la informacion del documento. Este documento quita toda la duda sobre su ascendencia.

Comment

¿Pero de cual documento hablas? Cual es la fuente del documento? En donde
escribió el senor Guillermo Teresa de Tovar palabra por palabra la
informacion del documento?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Petronila sotelo mendoza y Martin de
Gabai
Enviado por R.A.Ricci el Vie, 2014-01-03 17:29.

El senor Guillermo Teresa de Tovar tenia una copia de este documento y el
escribio palabra por palabra la informacion del documento. Este documento
quita toda la duda sobre su ascendencia.

Comment

Carlos Peredo

Wishing you all a very happy New Year I proceed to repeat the question that all of the descendants of Petronila are wondering : What type of document is that one that Rick saw and that our admired Guillermo had? I mean It would be wonderful to know where it is or any copy of it, but at least what kind of document it is, was it a legal document or a religious one? , perhaps a will or a received grant or encomienda ?

Maybe as it has not been published yet there is an understandable secrecy about the source or location of THE DOCUMENT, but could some one tell us at least what was the subject of it ?.

I´ve seen in PARES that in 1574 Don Fernado Sotelo receives permission to return to New Spain and I´m supposing that he went to Spain with his father Don Diego Arias Sotelo when the latter was ousted as acused in the "conspiración de los encomenderos"

About him the afore mentioned bokk "Familias y Casas de la Vieja Valladolid" says :

"Fue Don Fernando Arias Sotelo y

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Comment

Carlos Peredo

It has been researched that Don Fernando Arias Sotelo Moctezuma had ten children but the book I mention in the last post has the names of only 8:

Diego - canónigo
Juan - married twice
Fernando -unknown marital status
Leonor - nun
Ana - nun
Catalina - nun
Gerónima - nun
Antonio - Priest and Caballero de Santiago in 1637 (PARES)

But, as has been established in this forum, the ninth children of Don Fernando was:

Francisca Sotelo who died in Morelia in 1632

And I think there´s a strong chance that the tenth children was :

Francisco Sotelo the one that marries Clara de Jaén around 1632 probably in Aguascalientes.

One fact -besides the last name and the chronology that fits well - is that of their known six children, two married into descendants of Petronila de Moctezuma; and two more were baptized by descendants of the same Petronila de Moctezuma.

Its imposible to deny that there was a close relationship betwen this Francisco Sotelo and the children of Lope Ruíz de

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Comment

Thanks Carlos, there is some new information for me in your post!

By the way, Lorenzo Sotelo and Maria Montesuma (as she is named in the marriage records) had a brother named Diego:

"México, bautismos, 1560-1950," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N5LJ-X2D : accessed 07 Jan 2014), Diego Sotelo, 31 Aug 1624.

I have seen the actual record, but now I cannot find the link, it's on my other computer...will post it as soon as I can...

Here is the link to the image for Maria Montesuma's marriage to Bernave Bocanegra y Orozco, for those who might be interested:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18746-47471-56?cc=1883388&wc…

Its image 35 of Matrimonios, 1623-42, Sagragrio Metropolitano, Morelia, Michoacan, Mexico, registros parroquiales y diocesanos 1555-1996.

Regards
Denise

Comment

Hi Carlos
Here are the links to the images for both Diego and Lorenzo, and the citations:

Baptism record of Diego Sotelo, son of don Juan Sotelo Motecsuma and dona Maria Hurtado de Mendoza:

"México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1555-1996," images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18746-48085-54?cc=1883388&wc… : accessed 07 Jan 2014), Morelia > Sagrario Metropolitano > Matrimonios 1623-1642 > image 298 of 442

LINK TO IMAGE 298:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18746-48085-54?cc=1883388&wc…
__________________

Baptism record of Lorenzo Sotelo, son of don Juan Sotelo Motecsuma and dona Maria Hurtado de Mendoza:

"México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1555-1996," images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18746-47739-49?cc=1883388&wc… : accessed 07 Jan 2014), Morelia > Sagrario Metropolitano > Matrimonios 1623-1642 > image 373 of 442

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Comment

Carlos Peredo

Hi Denise,

You are right, Juan Sotelo and María Hurtado had three children......I found that record some time ago, but I foolishly didn´t mention because it doesn´t fit with previous info ...You know, in his last will Don Juan states that he had two children from his first marriage and five from his second.

Now I wonder : Did he mean that from his first marriage only two survived? Now I just recalled that El Padre Ibarrola, talking about the Haciendas of the Sotelos in Tarimbaro near Morelia, he says that when Lorenzo Arias Sotelo died with no children, the Hacienda Santa María went to his cousins the Ruíz de Chávez descendants of the last King of Michoacán (The last "Cazonci"); logically the heir of the Hacienda should have been Diego who was born before Lorenzo, the only reason that Diego didn´t inherit should be because he died young.

Regarding his second marriage to Juana Ruíz, I´m guessing that she can be a Ruíz de Esparza or a Ruíz de Chávez, maybe that will

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Comment

Carlos

Who are the children of Juan Sotelo and Juana Ruiz?

In the Aguascalientes baptismal record you are referring to, the record reads "Joan mestizo" and "hijo de Joan Sotelo y Jua de Sotelo"; with the padrinos Francisco Sotelo and his wife, as you noted.

I wonder if this is a different family than the Sotelo's we are interest in? Or, is there evidence to suggest that Juana Ruiz and Juana de Sotelo are the same person?

This is the url for the image https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-52628-11?cc=1502404&…

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Comment

Another problem...this time about Cristobal Valderrama Sotelo

Found in PARES:

Expediente de concesión de licencia para pasar a México a favor de Cristóbal de Valderrama Sotelo, natural de México, hijo de Francisco Arias Sotelo (residente en México) con un criado.

Título de la unidad: "Cristóbal de Valderrama Sotelo"
Archivo: Archivo General de Indias
Signatura: INDIFERENTE,2060,N.88

The document is dated 1582. Can this be a mistake that Francisco is named as his father???

Regards
Denise

Comment

Carlos Peredo

Hello Denise

I´ve tried to read the document you mention and so far I have not seen the name Francisco as the father of Cristóbal de Valderrama.

What I understand so far is that Cristóbal is requesting permission to return to Indias, he declares that he was born in Indias and that he´s been living in Spain for 11 or 12 years more or less and that as he requested the permission he was asked to show the original permission with which he went to Spain; he declares that he lost it and his lawyer proposes to present witnesses which is accepted.

All three witnesses declare that they know him for 11-12 years and that they know he arrived with a "Licencia" of the Virrey Enríquez; permission is granted.....then in page 9 he complains that the "Secretary" doesn´t want to extend the permission and he then insists that it is urgent for him to get it (here comes an important fact)because hi is in material necesity : "...por no tener de que poderme sustentarme (sic) en estos reynos

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Comment

Carlos Peredo

Very interesting document, page 11 is the actual letter that the Father of Cristóbal and Fernando writes responding on march 4th 1582 to one from Cristóbal dated feb 24th 1582.

the father (whose signature reads Arias Sotelo but the letters of the name are difficult to figure) is suprised to know that the secretary Ledesma refuses to give the laready granted permission and he writes : " ...certifico os de mi parte no se os haia contradición ni escrito sobre tal, después que ahora benistes de Ytalia y si antes la hice que pasasedes a Ytalia ya sabeis vos la razón que tuve. Y ahora os digo como os tengo escrito, que vistos mis trabajos y necesidades y no poderos dar la mano como padre, holgaría que pasasedes y pidiesedes a vuestro hermano lo que es vuestro y no os dé cuidado el venirme a ver, que yo estoy tal que recibiré pena de veros y hogaré de que no vengais y Dios nuestro señor os tenga de su mano para que le sirvais...de avisarme si os despachais de ahí y recorre

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Comment

Carlos Peredo

In PARES they list a document where there´s a "...Real Provisión] a Don Francisco de las Casas, dándole título de regidor de México, en lugar y por renuncia de Diego Arias Sotelo. (Extracto)"

So probably finally Don Diego was "forgiven" and allowed to return to Mexico where it seems had the title of regidor.

Mysteries abound regarding these Sotelos because also in PARES in 1573 twon men are sent to Indias to take charge of the "Hacienda" (The Business) of Don Diego Arias Sotelo, but in the same year there´s a permission to a Diego Arias Sotelo to return to Mexico. This last one I guess was stoped; and then in 1574 Diego´s son Fernando is allowed to go to Mexico.

Regards

Carlos

Comment

Oh...en lugar y por renuncia...i thought it meant that diego finally lost his position, that it was handed over to this don francisco de las casas?but my spanish is limited....
I saw these documents last night, and wondered how they could have been overlooked. They were easy enough to find with a buscada sencilla.

Comment

Carlos Peredo

I´m trying to read the file when the title of Regidor de la Cd. de México is given to Don Diego in 1559 and in page 4 his parents are mentioned : Capitán Antonio de Sotelo y Uzenda Núñez

Comment

Carlos Peredo

In the same file the first witness declares that "..que conoció a Diego Arias ..hace unos veinte años y que el dicho Diego tenía más de 10 años ...que recuerda que se fué a Nueva España con el Virrey Luis de Velasco porque este testigo le vió aparejar su hida...que después allá ha vivido y vive en la Cd. de México e allí es casado e tiene su mujer e hijos...porque a sus hermanos en persona que han venido de aquellas partes les ha oído decir como dicho Diego Arias es casado en la Cd. de Mexico e reside ahí con su mujer ....QUE ENVIUDÓ UNA VEZ E SE VOLVIÓ A CASAR E QUE ESTO ES COSA MUY PÚBLICA..."

Comment

Hi Carlos
What you found is very interesting because I had read in Andariegos y Pobladores (Jose Miguel Romero de Solis, 2001) in the entry for Fernando Sotelo Montezuma that his mother Leonor died in 1562. But since the text you cite about the regidor-ship (?) of Diego Arias Sotelo is from earlier than that, where his second marriage is mentioned, I am a Little confused...
If Leonor died before 1559, then Petronila was born before 1559...until now, all I knew was that she could have been born as late as 1662, like if her mother died in connection with her birth. Yet another mystery!

The other issue I am trying to resolve is the name of the second wife. I have seen it as Maria Tramuel in print (Moctezuma's Children, by Donald Chipman) and as Maria Manuela in a post here in NR...Maybe someone in this forum has the answer (a primary source) to this one?

Regards
Denise

Comment

Carlos Peredo

Hello Denise

Precisely in the book about the "conspiracy of the encomenderos" in google books, Diego Arias Sotelo declares that he married twice and about his second wife he says that her name is Maria Manuel and that she is the sister of the "Tesorero" Don Fernando de Portugal; that explains the record you found in PARES about María Manuel´s son returning to Mexico

Comment

Hi Carlos

It gets couriouser og courioser...

Below is a copy of the post I made the thread I started about Diego de Portugal:

I have seen the image of the original document, and even though I did not understand much of it, I did see the name Diego Arias de Sotelo, and the name Maria Manuel (not Manuela) in the document.

Also, I found a book scanned in about the noble families of Spain, from 1622, with details of the Torres y Portugal Family. It names Maria a sister of Ferdinand de Portugal, tesorero, who went to Mexico, and it also names Maria Manuel de Portugal as his daughter.

So I am still confused...

Here is the link to the book
Nobiliario genealogico de los reyes y titulos de España ...
By Alonso López de Haro

http://books.google.dk/books?id=AKr0u4RvQr0C&pg=PA215&dq=tesorero+ferna…

p. 215 (of the book, not the number of the Google images) has the info on Maria

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Comment

Hola a todos...

En mis investigaciones personales sobres los varios linajes que se cruzan y los personajes individuales, descubrí que nuestro antepasado Diego Arias Sotelo tenía un hermano mayor llamado Baltasar de Sotelo, tema que Denise Fastrup había tratado hace un año, y quien fue degollado por su participación en la Conspiración Cortés-Ávila, mientras que su hermano Diego Arias Sotelo fue desterrado desde la Ciudad de México hasta Orán, Argelia, en el norte de África. Parece que Denise Fastrup y Carlos Peredo ya estaban discutiendo este tema recientemente aquí, porque ya han hablado sobre sus datos básicos.

La narración sobre los últimos procesos de Baltasar de Sotelo se encuentra en “Noticias históricas de la Nueva España: Pub. con la protección del ministerio de fomento”, por Juan Suárez de Peralta (M.G. Hernández, 1878 - México - 392 páginas) - [http://books.google.com/books?id=b9E-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=%22…

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Comment

No sé por qué, pero no se transmitieron unas citaciones que puse entre "comillas" << ... >> < ... > Bueno la primera es:

"Dióse al capitán Baltasar de Sotelo, un perdón, ó treslado de los que á todos se daban."

Y la segunda es:

"Texto de búsqueda ARIAS SOTELO , del Archivo Archivo General de Indias , dentro de la unidad Casa de la Contratación

RESUMEN:
Título de la unidad: "DIEGO DE PORTUGAL MANUEL"
Archivo: Archivo General de Indias
Signatura: CONTRATACION,5229,N.5,R.1
Soporte:
Expediente de información y licencia de pasajero a indias de Diego de Portugal Manuel, natural de México, sobrino del conde del Villar [Fernando de Torres y Portugal], virrey de Perú, hijo de Arias Sotelo y María Manuel, a Perú. Fecha final 1584-Sep-19"

Bueno es todo por el momento...

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Published by Denise_Hernand… – Mon, 2014-01-13 07:55 | Permalink

Comment

Dear Steven

Thank you very much for your contributions in the threads regarding the sotelo moctezuma family! I hope you can find the time and interest to continue. I have myself gone through parts of the oldest records from Morelia, but as I am not so good at colonial spanish, i have surely missed some things. However, the little bits i could read were fun to discover (i am interested in that time period anyway).

Fernando sotelo is a padrino in a marriage record in the mid 1580's, that's the earliest primaty reference to him i have seen, i found it recently in the records from Morelia. I will post the citation and link when i get home from work. It is his son Juan who appears to be the Juan Sotelo who married Juana Ruiz and died in Aguascalientes, discussed earlier in a post in this thread.

Regards
Denise

Comment

Hi
I can see I may have made a mistake regarding Fernando Sotelo, or at least I cannot find that link for a reference to him in the 1580's. I may have remembered wrong, or else the link in on my old laptop which I do not have access to right now. Sorry for the confusion!

What I do have on Fernando Sotelo, I have noted below. Actually I do not know if this is the same person (the son of Diego Arias Sotelo and Leonor Valderrama Montesuma, in which case he lived to be a very old man!) or father and son:

_________________

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18746-47703-55?cc=1883388&wc…

"México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1555-1996," images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18746-47703-55?cc=1883388&wc… : accessed 13 Jan 2014), Morelia > Sagrario Metropolitano > Matrimonios 1623-1642 > image 21 of 442.

22 January 1637, marriage of
Juan Arias mulato libre and Catalina Tristan aka Catalina

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Comment

Así me gusta…que bueno que todos tomemos cartas en el asunto, discutamos y contribuyamos a esta discusión importante para poner en enfoque esta imagen borrosa que tenemos sobre el linaje de los Sotelo, los Valderrama, los Moctezuma y sus familias colaterales. ¡Qué bueno que estamos reuniendo los hilos sueltos presentado a cada paso datos nuevos que nos abran paso a nuevos descubrimientos!
Y como anillo al dedo y justo que estamos hablando sobre el tema de Petronila de Moctezuma y de Martin Navarro sale algo justamente de ellos.

El pasado 8 de enero del 2014, el señor John P. Schmal publicó “Moctezuma's Descendants in Aguascalientes: Tracking the offspring of the last Aztec monarch” en http://latinola.com/story.php?story=12449. Allí él elabora a largo sobre varios datos que todos los que estudiamos la genealogía de Los Altos de Jalisco ya más o menos conocemos. Conozco a John Schmal personalmente y estoy seguro que ha investigado bien las fuentes documentales.

De nuevo, este es

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Comment

Steven, Denise y Carlos:
¡Que maravilla! Gracias por la dedicación hacia al tema de los Arias Sotelo. Ya tenía varios datos y algunos documentos, mas nunca conseguí el tiempo para estudiarlo más a fondo. Especialmente, los documentos que prueban el linaje de los Arias Sotelo en Castilla. Es bien probable que con los que reunimos ahora, puedemos buscar una ejecutoría de hidalguía en la Chancellería de Valladolid que nos dará datos adicionales sobre los Arias de Sotelo.
De hecho, he estudado bastante sobre los Núñez Vela cuya familia desciendo varias veces. Lo interesante de esta ilustre familia es que entre sus descendientes se encuentran los Muñoz de Xérez. Más una vez, les agradezco por la gentileza y amor hacia la genealogía en ayudarnos mutuamente.
Daniel Méndez de Torres y CaminoSan José, Calif

Comment

Un dato mas... Existen dos descendientes de Cuitlahuac, hermano de
Moctezuma Xocoyotzin, llamadas Petronila, parece ser que este nombre fue
comunmente usado por los dscendientes de Moctezuma, esta informacion se
puede consultar del codice de Ixhuatepec.
La anterior informacion me la proporciono Maria Teresa Dorantes.

ATTE
Mario Gonzalez

El 13 de enero de 2014, 9:40, Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino
mendezdetorres@hotmail.com> escribió:

> Steven, Denise y Carlos:
> ¡Que maravilla! Gracias por la dedicación hacia al tema de los Arias
> Sotelo. Ya tenía varios datos y algunos documentos, mas nunca conseguí el
> tiempo para estudiarlo más a fondo. Especialmente, los documentos que
> prueban el linaje de los Arias Sotelo en Castilla. Es bien probable que con
> los que reunimos ahora, puedemos buscar una ejecutoría de hidalguía en la
> Chancellería de Valladolid que nos dará datos adicionales sobre los Arias
> de Sotelo.
> De hecho, he estudado bastante sobre los Núñez Vela cuya

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Comment

Carlos Peredo

Estimado (casi seguro) primo

Gracias por enriquecer el contexto de la saga de los Arias Sotelo en América y las viscicitudes que afrontaron.

Hay algunos datos que ya he referido en otros "nodes" y que permiten ir formando una historia más correcta del tema.

Por ejemplo: Diego Arias Sotelo llegó a Nueva España en 1550 y no antes, ya que vino junto al Virrey Luis de Velasco, el cual inició su periódo en 1550. La prueba está en un documento que hay en PARES sobre el trámite para obtener el cargo de regidor de la Ciudad de México que hizo Diego Arias Sotelo en 1559 a través de un representante en España ya que él estaba en México; en dicho documento se presentan varios testigos a declarar y todos coinciden en que Diego debe de tener más de treinta años (uno es más correcto y dice la edad real 34), que es HIJO DEL CAPITÁN ANTONIO SOTELO Y SU MUJER UZENDA NÚÑEZ, que es de la aldea de Palo a un lado de Zamora, que uno de ellos lo vió empacar para irse a Nva España en

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Comment

Mr. Ricci, I'm in Santa Monica right now. I would like to go down to the
Family History Library in West L.A. tomorrow to have a look around. Could
you describe the document? What does it look like? Is it a chart? A piece
of paper? What exactly should I be looking for?

Paige

Comment

It was not a chart. It was written out and focused on Lpoe Ruiz de Esparza. It explained that he had been In the new world for two years. He was already married. It identified his wife and that she descended from Moctezuma. I did not find the document. The library was closing for what turned out to be two years for remodeling. I was trying to squeeze in as much reach as I could before they closed. They were trying to kick me out but let me stay a few more minutes because I had found some great stuff. As I was explaining what I had found, the guy next to made the find on Lope Ruiz de Esparza. We were the last ones there and he also asked for more time because of what he had found. When I heard his explanation to the staff I immediately asked to read the document. As he was trying to convince the staff that it was an important find, I read the document repeatedly. They told us that they were sorry but that they were already closed and that we had to leave. They said that they

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Comment

Dear Paige,

I wish you a lot of luck looking for this document on Lope Ruiz de Esparza. Besides stating that Petronila is a descendant of Moctezuma, this document clearly states when he arrived and that he had gotten married in the two years from when he arrived to the date that the document had been written. With more time to thoroughly study this document there is a possibility to come up with more information. I was such in shock when I was reading the document that I just gave it back when they demanded that we leave.

R.A.Ricci

Comment

It just came to me that we can look at the sign-in sheet to the film room that is dated the last day before they closed the library for remodeling to find all the people that checked out films. If the discoverer of the document signed in, then we can track him down. It comes down to whether or not the library will let us access the sign-in sheet for that day. Ill admit that sometimes I was in a hurry to get to work and didn't sign in like I was supposed to. Let's hope that he signed in.

R A Ricci

Comment

Hi Carlos

First I would like to thank you for taking a look at the document - you got much more out of it than I did, although I had seen "don Fernando mi ermano" (another reason I think the name Francisco as Cristobal's father must be a mistake). I think it's very exciting reading because it tells me that Diego Arias Sotelo survived many years after he was banished to Oran, and this means its quite possible he had a hand in deciding who his daughter Petronila married.
Regarding the name Francisco, I saw it on the description and ID of the document. Here is a copy-paste from the page in PARES:
_____________________________________
RESUMEN:
Título de la unidad: "Cristóbal de Valderrama Sotelo"
Archivo: Archivo General de Indias
Signatura: INDIFERENTE,2060,N.88
Soporte: contiene imágenes digitalizadas

Imprimir

indicador de lista abierta ÁREA DE IDENTIFICACIÓN

Código de Referencia:

ES.41091.AGI/22.15.2130//INDIFERENTE,2060,N.88

Titulo Nombre atribuido:

Cristóbal de

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Comment

Hello Denise, hello cousins!

I just confirmed that the file in PARES that contains the request of Don Cristóbal Arias de Sotelo y Valderrama to be given permission to return to Nueva España is wrongfully abstracted because it says that Cristóbal´s father was Francisco Arias de Sotelo and in fact Cristobal´s father was Diego Arias de Sotelo.

The mistake is understandable because in the mentioned file there are two pages where there are two samples of the signature of Cristóbal´s father and the signature is misguiding as it seems to say something like : F´o arias d sotelo.

Fortunately a recently re-read one document in familysearch where Don Diego Arias de Sotelo and several other encomenderos give full power to some lawyers of Mexico City to oversee some businesses of the mentioned encomenderos, that document was made in 1555 in Michoacan and in the end of teh document we can see the signatures of the encomenderos and EUREKA! the signature of Diego Arias the sotelo in 1555 is THE

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Hi Carlos

This is very interesting! And it is clear evidence that Diego did not die as an oarsman in the bowels of a ship fighting the infidels off the coast of Oran (which I think I remember was his sentence after being found guilty of taking part in the Cortes rebellion).

From what I saw in Pares, he acted as a kind of a lawyer in Spain after he returned there. He was after all married to a lady of high status, close to the court, so it's possible to explain how he got out of his punishment. It's a story I am still fascinated by....but I never did manage to establish a clear and definite link to the Sotelos of Zamora - those Sotelos named in the book The Men of Cajamarca, by James Lockhart.

https://books.google.dk/books?id=E1hfAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT314&lpg=PT314&dq=gre…

Because it looked like Diego did not die in

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Hello Carlos

Found an interesting bit of information on Lorenzo Sotelo Montezuma here:

https://books.google.dk/books?id=MxDRaJKhA6wC&pg=PA319&lpg=PA319&dq=lor…

The Presidio and Militia on the Northern Frontier of New Spain: 1570-1700
edited by Thomas H. Naylor, Charles W. Polzer

On pages 305 - 306 it states that Lorenzo was killed by Indians in Nueva Vizcaya in 1645.

I came across a wikitree entry with a marriage between a Margarita Ruiz de Esparza and a Diego Sotelo in the late 1600's and decided to try to find documentation that the Sotelos of Chihuahua are descended fra Fernando Sotelo, son of Diego Arias Sotelo and Leonor Valderrama Moctezuma. Haven't found documentation yet, but ....the original record (image) of the marriage shows the parents of Diego are Don Lorenzo Sotelo and Ana de Rivera. Via

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Hello Denise, so nice to hear from you

Interesting piece this one about this Lorenzo de Sotelo Moctezuma. My opinion on this is that there were apparently two men called Lorenzo Sotelo Moctezuma in this region of the Conchos river, one of them was the son of the Indian Governor Joseph Juan, who was probably baptized with the name of the "spaniard" Juan Sotelo Moctezuma (we know that was a common practice)

I´m thinking that Juan Sotelo moved from Tarímbaro to the northern regions of New Spain either by will or due to a comission to go help settling those lands. We know that living in those regions at that time was very dangerous, but at the same time it was atractive because the minerals being discovered in Zacatecas, San Luis Potosí and other places had made some men real tycoons. So I think Juan Sotelo moved to aguascalientes some time around 1635 with his second wife María Ruíz, and his son (from his first marriage) Lorenzo; leaving in Michoacán his daughter María (also from his

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Hi Carlos

In the Spanish transcription (the book provides the English translation and the original Spanish) he is identified on page 119 as don Lorenzo Sotelo Montezuma and on page 120 as the spaniard Don Lorenzo Montezuma. So I am still confused. Also, if he was the son of Juan, he would only have been 14 years old when he was killed. Would he have been called "Don"? Why do you think his parents would sell the hacienda in Michoacan, after Lorenzo's death? I would think they would pack and return to where they came from. Hopefully this can be cleared up.

I am wondering if Lorenzo who was a religioso left the priesthood and went north seeking his fortune...

I have never seen Juan Sotelo’s (married to Maria Ruiz) testamento. Have you? Is there an image of it somewhere accessible or a transcription? I tried a few years back to look it up, but the website with testamentos always came back with an error message.

Regards
Denise

Published by Jaime_Alvarado – Thu, 2013-11-21 10:15 | Permalink

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Edgar,
Hasta donde yo se, no existe documento alguno que soporte la relación de Petronila Moctezuma con los Sotelo. Evidencia a favor esta basada en una linea de tiempo, pero nada mas. Sin embargo, existe evidencia contraria en base a linajes comprobados y documentos (solicitud de beneficios a la Corona) que nunca mencionan a Petronila (busca en los foros de NR información al respecto). Uno de los miembros de NR en algún momento mencionó haber visto la imagen de un documento (me parece referente a la pureza de sangre de la familia de Lope Ruiz de Esparza) donde se mencionaba que Petronila, la madre de su esposa Ana Francisca de Gabay, era nieta del Emperador Moctezuma. La existencia de este documento jamas ha sido demostrada (yo solicite la fuente, pero nunca fue otorgada). En lo particular, yo he eliminado de mi árbol dicha conexión con Moctezuma I por carecer de documentación. Cabe señalar que existieron otras lineas Moctezuma que se aliaron con Cortes para luchar contra su primo

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Hay dos documentos
Perdona Jaime por que nunca pude encontrar los documentos por que Cerraron la bibliotheca para remodelar por dos Anos y cuando abrieron de Nuevo ya no estaba el documento en el mismo lugar.
Yo vi el documento personalmente por diez minutos antes de cerrar la bibliotheca. Lo estudie hasta que me correaron El documento da la information que a segura que Ella Es bisnieta de Moctezuma.

el segundo documento da hasta mas informacion. este documento nombra a Martin Gabai de Navarro, explicando que Gabai Es el apellido y que el era de Navarro/a este documento nombra Los padres y abuelos de Petronila y dos bisabuelos.
No tengas dudes sober este asunto

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buenas tardes R.A.Ricci
un cordial saludo
una pregunta compañero
has tenido nuevamente la oportunidad de aver encontrado nuevamente este documento donde se mencionan que Petronila es descediente de Moctezuma?
o donde se mención los padres de martin gabay navarro ?
y los bisabuelos de ambos?

o me podrias orientar como puedo empezar a buscarlo o si existe alguna pagina donde los tengan digitalizado?
si tan solo tuviéramos este ultimo documento donde se los padres abuelos y bisabuelos de Petronila con ese tenemos para demostrar el linaje

esperemos y pronto podamos encontrar la evidencia

saludos

Published by Denise_Hernand… – Tue, 2013-11-12 15:10 | Permalink

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Hi Gary

I have the clear impression a number of researchers in this forum are looking for a record that documents the relationship between Petronila de Moctezuma, and Diego Arias Sotelo and Leonor Valderrama Moctezuma.

In the recent thread on Francisco Sotelo, it was made clear that Juan Sotelo who died in Aguascalientes in the 1640s, (husband of Joana Ruiz, father of five children with her and two with a first wife,) is the same Juan Sotelo of Michoacan who was the son of Fernando Sotelo who was the son of Diego Arias Sotelo and Leonor Valderrama.

If Petronila de Moctezuma is the daughter of Diego and Leonor, that would make her Juan Sotelos aunt.

What we dont seem to know yet, is how Francisco Sotelo is related to Juan.
Nor do we have Petronila de Moctezuma's name on a document other than a dispensa (someone correct me if I am wrong here!). The dispensa does not specify through whom she is descended from Moctezuma, but the fact that her name is on a document was a major find

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Four documents exist that I know of
One State's that she is the great granddaughter of Moctezumaand gives some other information of ruis de Esparza and who are his parents in Spain it states focuses more on ruiz de Esparza, his ancestry and his wife and inlaws and gives a partial line and then jumps and says that she is the great granddaughter of moctezuma

The other document gives the whole arias de sotelo valderrama Leonor line all the way to Moctezuma

A third document that I found explains that leonor de moctezumas mother is the daughter to moctezumas cousin and advisor. His cousin was a very powerful authority in the Aztec empire. this one names leonor, Isabella and a third daughter of Moctezuma

The fourth document is one with the least information is the one showing that Bartolomeu Rodriguez Bajo and his wife are third cousins descendents of petronila Moctezuma. I descend from this couple. this one does not give info on petronilas parents or show any connection to the arias

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What people want are copies of the original documents and where the
originals are located. Otherwise it is hearsay. We can't just use
"somebody said so on a forum"

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This is very true Armando, genealogy is an art and a very dedicated work. I have been spending quite a bit of time correcting errors that others have made in the past. It is okay to have hipothesis based on documents and various pieces of the puzzles, but we must state this. It is not concrete nor should be published till we have found primary sources to establish such connections.
Daniel Méndez de Torres CaminoBrasília - DF - Brasil

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Hello Daniel
A few years ago a member of nuestros ranches gave me some false information that sent me researching for almost a year and a half all of the ancestors of a Luisa Velasquez that I had been led to believe was my ancestor. I asked for documentation but he stated that his computer had crashed and lost the source details. I believed him because the same week that I had my flash drive back up stolen, my computer crashed and I lost a lot of information. I did have an older backup but lost important information that to this day I have not fully recovered. I believed that it was just a coincidence that it had happened to the both of us at about the same time.
I was very embarrassed when Guillermo Teresa de Tovar told me that this connection to my family did not exist and that Luisa Velasquez family did not have any connection at all to the families in Jalisco and Zacatecas. I waited for the nuestros ranches member to speak up and say that he had provided that info but he never

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Dear Armando,

You wrote that this is just heresay because it is just written on a forum. It maybe heresay to you but since I saw it with my own eyes I can take it as the truth. I have tried over and over to find the document but have not had success.

A marriage dispensation between Margarita Ruiz de Esparza (Died: 27/Sep/ 1724) m. Diego Sotelo on November 15, 1693 may provide the document we are looking for.

R. A. Ricci

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Hello RA Ricci, After hearing that you had found so many wonderful things at the LAFSC I decided to make the effort to go. I went to the "big one" on Santa Monica Blvd. I was expecting to see more materials. They did have rooms of computers available and the women who helped me was extremely nice. However, I saw only one room of books, few for Mexico; about 1 shelf. Was I at the correct place? Is there another section of books that I missed? Is there a section only for films? Are there more films there besides the ones we have available on familysearch.com?

Thank you, D. Corona

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Some comments on these documents ...

(1) This is apparently the reference in the Jaime Holcomb family group sheet for Lope Ruiz de Esparza: "Documentos proporcionados por el Licenciado Luis Lopez Martinez: Prueba de nobleza y limpieza de sangre hecha por el esposa en Aguascalientes con su ascendcia en Espana varias generacions, Historia familiar y muy escueta genealogia de la esposa - dice que la madre de la esposa fue nieta del ultimo Emperador Azteca, Moctezuma." My attempts to find this have not been successful.

(2) This is apparently well documented. For example, see, AGI, Patronato, 245, R.5." This is a chart made in about 1574 that shows the descent of Fernando de Sotelo Moctezuma and [if I read it correctly} "otros hijos de Diego Arias Sotelo," but does not name them. There are other genealogical charts in the AGI, as well. These call all be downloaded from PARES. I posted the details on how to search PARES a couple of years ago here at NR,

(3) Her mother is Acatlan

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Published by R.A.Ricci (not verified) – Fri, 2014-01-03 13:49 | Permalink

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Hello George
The first document is in the family history library in West Los Angeles. I did not get this information off of Jaime Holcomb's work though I have copied and stored all of his work that I can find. I do not have that family group sheet in my collection. I actually saw the document in question. I took the afternoon off from work to run to the library for one last feeding to my addiction to genealogy before they closed for remodeling. I did not find the document. I was working on other lines and I had been extremely lucky that day and was trying to squeeze every minute of work in when the gentleman next to me almost had a heart attack because of what he had found. i reluctantly stopped what I was doing and asked him if he was ok he said he was fine and showed me the document. I read it over and over as we ignored the pleas from the staff to get up and leave. they would not allow me to make a copy since they said that it was past closing time And that it would be only a

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Rick

Thanks for the reply. The info about the first document is tantalizing! Hopefully, it will be found one day soon.

What is the second document you refer to? Is it available electronically? The only things I've seen that connects Petronila to the Arias Sotelo family are unsourced internet genealogies. She is not named in the Codex Chimalpahin, but there is reference to five unnamed children of Fernando Sotelo de Moctezuma. There is a recent NR post that quotes "Familias y Casas de la Vieja Valladolid" that gives some of their names, but still leaves out two. I have located a copy in the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley, but haven't been able to make it there yet.

The three named wives of Moctezuma that I know are Teotlaco (son Axayacatl and daughter Tecuichpochtzin/Isabel), Acatlan (daughters Leonor [aka Mariana/Marina] and Maria), Maria Miahuaxochitl [son Pedro [Tlacahueantzin]). There are number of children by unnamed wives/concubines, some of whom apparently survived the

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George
The second document clearly stated and removed all doubt as to the ancestry. It was a transcription of the original document and clearly stated what everyone is asking for . It was a literal transcription, word for word, and It was Guillermo Tovar de Teresa that provided it. he stated that he had a copy of the original document.

he also stated that he had new information on the Romos in Spain that was in his words a major find. he said that he was writing a book and that all documentation would be included.

He said that I would have to wait for the book.

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The second document was a transcription of what original document?

Since don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa is no longer with us and we have no way
to know if the book he was writing will be published we are still left with
the original question. Which document proves the ancestry of Petronila de
Moctezuma?

In *Retoños De España* *En La Nueva Galicia* Tomo VII Ruiz de Esparza pages
214-215 don Mariano González Leal mentions the genealogy of Petronila de
Moctezuma given to him by don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa. Don Mariano also
mentions that the book by don Guillermo was in the process of being
printed. However it has been over two years since Retoños was published and
we still have no word on the book by the late don Guillermo.

He has Moctezuma II as the father of Leonor de Moctezuma whose second
marriage was to the conquistador Cristóbal de Valderrama. They had a
daughter named Leonor de Valderrama y Moctezuma who married Diego Arias de
Sotelo. They were the parents of our ancestor

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Hi Armando

I have also read the appendix in "Retonos" and have looked forward to seeing Don Guillermo's next publication. Since he has unfortunately passed away, i am thinking that surely the administrator of his estate will name someone to archive his materials and make sure his latest work gets published, if he was close to finishing it. He would surely not have provided the new information on Petronila de Moctesuma in the appendix of Retonos unless he already had the documentation in order. That documentation - the citation for the relevant document, which i understant from RA Ricci's comment he had a copy of - must be somewhere among his research notes and materials. I would imagine its in the draft of what he was planning to publish. Could there be someone in this forum who knew Don Guillermo and who would know who to ask about the work he left unfinished? Someone who could find out if it will be published posthumously?

Regards
Denise

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Rafael Tovar y de Teresa es hermano de Guillermo, actualmente en el gobierno de Mexico desempeña el papel de presidente del consejo nacional para la cultura y las artes, a el podriamos hacerle llegar la peticion que hace Denise Fastrup de preguntarle si efectivamente Guillermo estaba por publicar un libro que citara la ascendencia de Petronila Moctezuma. Para darle mas formalidad, me gustaria que dicha peticion la hiciera el admistrador de este foro de genealogia o un miembro que ya haya tratado anteriormente a la familia de Guillermo.

Saludos

ATTE
Mario Gonzalez.

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Dear Mario Gonzalez

Thank you for responding to my post. I fully agree with your proposal on how to go about it- a formal inquiry from a forum represented by the administrator and someone who has already met his family, would be the best way to go about it. ( I rephrase your words here in English for those in the forum whose Spanish may be limited, please correct me if i get it wrong). Don Guillermo was a member of Nuestros Ranchos, after all, and with the appendix in Retonos he showed his clear intent to make the information accessible to the public.

Regards,
Denise Hernandez Fastrup

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Hello Denise,

I see there was some confusion. I had never questioned if don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa had the documentation in order. I don't doubt at all that he did. What many of us are looking for is information about the document. What kind of document is it, where is the original located, what does it say, is there a way to obtain a copy of the original? That is what we want to know and that is what I questioned to a person who seems to more know than is willing to write. Since many projects are left in limbo, or even abandoned completely, when a person passes away we are left to wonder about the status of the printing of the book. Mario brought up a very valid point about contacting don Rafael Tovar de Teresa to inquire if they are going to proceed with the printing of the book and when the expected date of publication is. Hopefully someone here is willing to do that.

Saludos,
Armando

---------------------------------------------------------------

Don Guillermo Tovar de

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Hace unos años, Don Mariano González-Leal me mandó su capítulo completo de Ruiz de Esparza donde se encuentra el Apéndice dedicado al linaje de Moctezuma. En dicho apéndice, le da crédito a don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa por estos datos. Lamentablemente, ya no disponemos de la sabiduría que guardaba la mente del recientemente fallecido genealogista para aclararnos las cosas e indicarnos cuales fueron sus fuentes documentales para esclaracer el linaje entre Petronila de Moctezuma y el Tlatoani Mexica. En la página 28 del capítulo “Ruiz de Esparza” de RETOÑOS DE ESPAÑA EN LA NUEVA GALICIA, don Mariano escribe lo siguiente:

“
APÉNDICE

MOCTEZUMA

Una vez estando en prensa la presente obra, don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa ha tenido la gentileza de proporcionarme información sumamente valiosa, producto de su personal investigación, que complemente esta monografía y también la correspondiente a la familia Fernández de Vaulus. En virtud de que esta obra ha sido concluida y se encuentra ya

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Published by gpf13 – Sat, 2014-01-11 21:40 | Permalink

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Steven

Thank you very much for posting this appendix.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

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Where are those documents located? That is what people want to know. They
don't just want to know that there is a document somewhere. They want a
reference.

The genealogy of Petronila de Moctezuma is the most requested genealogy by
people that I have corresponded with outside of Nuestros Ranchos.

(1) The first is a copy of the the Prueba de nobleza y limpieza de sangre
de Ana de Gabai wife of Lope Ruiz de Esparza? If not what was it? What kind
of document? What kind of book or collection is the document located in?

(2) What kind of document has named Petronila as Arias Moctezuma or Sotelo
Moctezuma and named her as a daughter and named her husband as Martin Gabai
from Navarre/a ?

(3) Where is this document located? What kind of book or collection?

(4) I did already have the dispensa and I'll post the pertinent info here
so people don't have to search elsewhere.

At the bottom left of image 319 of the dispensa that starts on 316 at
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18377

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