Elvira,

Thanks so much for sharing your interesting experiences.

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "elviraz" <elviraz@e...> wrote:
>
> 
> Arturo, Emilie, 
> 
>  See my comments below.
> 
> Elvira
> 
> 

You know that's right Elvira.  I talk to the Nordic people at my 
family history center and they cannot believe that there are even 
records for Mexico in the 1700s let alone records that list maternal 
and paternal names up to the grandparents... along with race/caste, 
etc.  As wrong as the motives may have been for maintaining all of 
this information... knowledge=control and the maintainance of 
information like this was obviously meant to categorize and keep 
people in their place.  Nevertheless this information gives us a 
beautiful window into the lives of our ancestors.

Emilie: Neither my father nor I have been able to locate my 
grandfather's birth certificate... either at the civil registry in 
the town where he was born nor in Gudadalajara.  I think there were a 
lot of records lost just before the revolution. The government in 
Mexico was very weak and then a lot of records were destroyed.  We 
are lucky we have been able to find his baptismal records.

I have a similar issue in my father's lineage much further back.  I 
have a gggg grandfather who was an "expuesto" and whose background I 
cannot confirm.  Even if his adoptive father is his illegitimate 
father, two generations futher back there is an illegimate child's 
birth whose baptismal records do not appear in Mazapil, where he 
claims to have been born.  Somewhat frustrating.

There is a book by Thomas Calvo called la Nueva Galicia en los siglos 
XVI y XVII.  It is a pretty rigorous ethnologic study based on census 
and baptismal registry data that shows that nearly 40% of children 
born in Nueva Galicia at the end of the XVI century were illegitimate 
and that family name transmittal was not very common in the area at 
the time.  I think all of this is indicative of our families being in 
such a challenging frontier that was suffering a massive demographic 
collapse.  Families were being torn apart and survival often required 
people being transient and adaptive.

Have people gotten to this point in time where their genealogies are 
still in the Ranchos area of Nueva Galicia?  I have definitely seen 
more and more illegitimate births as I have gotten closer to this 
time period.



--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "elviraz" <elviraz@e...> wrote:
>
> Victor,
> 
> Yes, you got it right. The state has always made a second copy of 
the records. The originals (when the book closes) get sent to the 
state capital and the second copy is supposed to stay in the 
municipio it came from.
> 
> The registro civil  in Zacatecas City should have the copy of the 
tome in question (let's hope that it survived la Toma de Zactecas).  
I had this problem with records from Durango.  The documents were 
found in the registro civil in the city of Durango. 
> 
> Like someone said before ' thank God the Spanish were compulsive 
record keepers".  They taught the  Mexicans well!
> 
> Elvira
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: v.h.villarreal 
>   To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 8:36 PM
>   Subject: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos
> 
> 
>   I'm not sure if it has always been the same but I understand that
>   civil registry records are always made in duplicate; one for the 
local
>   office and a copy for the State archives of the civil registry.  
So
>   even if the local copy was burnt there's a chance that the State's
>   copy survived.  As I said, that is how it is done today but I'm 
not
>   sure if the same rule applied back in 1903.
> 
>   The other question is where were the microfilms made, at the local
>   office or at the state office?
> 
>   Victor
> 
>   --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia" 
<auntyemfaustus@h...>
>   wrote:
>   >
>   > Victor, I was just going over the civil registry records I have
>   checked and I haven't found any trace of my father, aunt or
>   grandmother, nor of a marriage record for my grandfather Francisco
>   Olague and grandmother Gorgonia Garcia.  I checked the civil 
registry
>   for Guadalupe, a town not far from Jerez, where my aunt Soledad's 
(my
>   father's only sibling) death certificate says she was born.  
Also, the
>   priest didn't say the records were burned in 1903, but later when 
the
>   Revolucion war came to Jerez.  It seems whoever wanted to destroy
>   records set fire to the church and the civil registry office 
since the
>   list of LDS films has gaps for 1903 in the bautismos of hijos
>   naturales and all other records in the civil registry.  Maybe 
someone
>   there that wanted to hide something took advantage and destroyed 
the
>   "evidence".  I know Hitler destroyed his home town in Austria to
>   prevent people finding proof he had Jewish blood, and a lady at 
the
>   FHC says that some politico in Montreal wanted to do the same 
thing
>   because he was illegitimate.  Why else would only a portion of 
records
>   go missing in both places, the church and the civil registrar?
>   > 
>   > One thing I now know for sure, probably, is that since my 
father was
>   not listed in the book for hijos legitimos for 1903, that he must 
have
>   been listed as an hijo natural.  Since I don't find a marriage 
record
>   for my grandparents, I think they were not married.  My 
grandfather
>   was known to be a very large, tall and intimidating man---"a very 
hard
>   man" someone said.  He mistreated the women in his family, even 
his
>   own mother, and my mother left Colorado when she couldn't stand 
his
>   bullying and interference, and she didn't return to my father 
until
>   after his father had died.  My father just would not stand up to 
his
>   father. (My father was only five feet tall and maybe he knew his
>   father would kill him or something. She said that when she used to
>   spank his other grandchildren (my aunt's boys), my grandfather 
used to
>   come and pinch me and make me cry.  He was mean and dangerous.  I
>   heard from a cousin that someone was out to get him in Mexico, so 
he
>   came to the US during the Revolucion. 
>   > 
>   > I'll keep hacking away and maybe the forces will feel sorry for 
me
>   and give me a clue.
>   > 
>   > Emilie Garcia
>   > Port Orchard, WA --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
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> 
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>

I'm not sure if it has always been the same but I understand that
civil registry records are always made in duplicate; one for the local
office and a copy for the State archives of the civil registry.  So
even if the local copy was burnt there's a chance that the State's
copy survived.  As I said, that is how it is done today but I'm not
sure if the same rule applied back in 1903.

The other question is where were the microfilms made, at the local
office or at the state office?

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia" <auntyemfaustus@h...>
wrote:
>
> Victor, I was just going over the civil registry records I have
checked and I haven't found any trace of my father, aunt or
grandmother, nor of a marriage record for my grandfather Francisco
Olague and grandmother Gorgonia Garcia.  I checked the civil registry
for Guadalupe, a town not far from Jerez, where my aunt Soledad's (my
father's only sibling) death certificate says she was born.  Also, the
priest didn't say the records were burned in 1903, but later when the
Revolucion war came to Jerez.  It seems whoever wanted to destroy
records set fire to the church and the civil registry office since the
list of LDS films has gaps for 1903 in the bautismos of hijos
naturales and all other records in the civil registry.  Maybe someone
there that wanted to hide something took advantage and destroyed the
"evidence".  I know Hitler destroyed his home town in Austria to
prevent people finding proof he had Jewish blood, and a lady at the
FHC says that some politico in Montreal wanted to do the same thing
because he was illegitimate.  Why else would only a portion of records
go missing in both places, the church and the civil registrar?
> 
> One thing I now know for sure, probably, is that since my father was
not listed in the book for hijos legitimos for 1903, that he must have
been listed as an hijo natural.  Since I don't find a marriage record
for my grandparents, I think they were not married.  My grandfather
was known to be a very large, tall and intimidating man---"a very hard
man" someone said.  He mistreated the women in his family, even his
own mother, and my mother left Colorado when she couldn't stand his
bullying and interference, and she didn't return to my father until
after his father had died.  My father just would not stand up to his
father. (My father was only five feet tall and maybe he knew his
father would kill him or something. She said that when she used to
spank his other grandchildren (my aunt's boys), my grandfather used to
come and pinch me and make me cry.  He was mean and dangerous.  I
heard from a cousin that someone was out to get him in Mexico, so he
came to the US during the Revolucion. 
> 
> I'll keep hacking away and maybe the forces will feel sorry for me
and give me a clue.
> 
> Emilie Garcia
> Port Orchard, WA --

Emilie,

Don't despair.  Do what Angie suggests and check the Civil Registry
records.  What I find strange is that the dates don't quite check
because the Mexican Revolution started in 1910 not 1903.  Maybe it was
some other disaster or maybe they made a typo when they captured that
record.  I've seen microfilms whose contents don't exactly agree with
the index at the Library Catalog.  So maybe you can take a look at
those microfilms anyway just to be sure.  After all that, if you still
haven't found anything, then you can cry, but just a little!

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia" <auntyemfaustus@h...>
wrote:
>
> Oh, Angie, Victor,
> 
> I guess the priest my father talked to was correct.  The records for
1903 when my father was born were burned during the Revolucion.  The
films skip from 1902 to 1906.  I want to cry. 
> 
> Emilie
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Emilie Garcia<mailto:auntyemfaustus@h...> 
>   To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com> 
>   Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 2:07 PM
>   Subject: Re: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos
> 
> 
>   Thaks, Angie ---- I guess I never looked at the whole list for
Jerez and only saw the Bautismos on the top.
> 
>   Emilie Garcia 
>   Port Orchard, WA --
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
>     From: aajay1073<mailto:aajay1073@y...> 
>     To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com> 
>     Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 1:36 PM
>     Subject: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos
> 
> 
>     Emilie,
> 
>     Here is this list:
>     Bautismos de hijos naturales 1867-1891 -  FHL INTL Film [ 439889 ]
>     Bautismos de hijos naturales 1891-1902 -  FHL INTL Film [ 439890 ]
>     Bautismos de hijos naturales 1906-1919 -  FHL INTL Film [ 439891 ]
>     Bautismos de hijos naturales 1953-1961 -  VAULT INTL Film [
439892 ] 
> 
>     Taken from this page:
>    
http://www.familysearch.com/Eng/Library/fhlcatalog/printing/titledetai<http://www.familysearch.com/Eng/Library/fhlcatalog/printing/titledetai>
>     lsprint.asp?titleno=354158
> 
>     Good luck on your search,
>     Angie Godina
> 
> 
>     --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia"
<auntyemfaustus@h...> 
>     wrote:
>     >
>     > Yesterday I was at the local FHC again poring over the microfilm 
>     for baptisms from Jerez around the time my father Guadalupe Olague 
>     was born (January 28, 1903).  I have never been able to locate my 
>     father's birth record in it, even though I have found his father in 
>     Tepetongo (Rancho Salitrillo) and others there back to the early 
>     1700's. While I was loading the film yesterday, I noticed that the 
>     title of the book filmed was "Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos", and
sure 
>     enough, I did not find one "hijo natural" or "hijo de padre no 
>     conocido" in it.  It seems all other films I have searched included 
>     all baptisms, hijos naturales, adoptivos, etc. even if they made 
>     reference to other books where the actual names of the parents were 
>     written.  So, hmmm, was Daddy illegitimate?  If so, is there a book 
>     for "hijos naturales" that was not microfilmed?  What would such a 
>     book be called?  Where would one obtain info from such a book, and 
>     would it take an act of congress to get it?
>     > 
>     > My father at one time (in the early 1960's) needed a birth record 
>     for work and for Social Security and we went from California to
Jerez 
>     to the church there only to have the priest tell him that all
records 
>     for that time period had been burned during the Revolucion. 
Sometime 
>     later, my father must have contacted a lawyer there because
after my 
>     mother died and I was going through all their records, I found an 
>     affadavit to prove his previously unrecorded birth.  As testigos
and 
>     witnesses that my father was born in Jerez were listed some men 
>     (maybe they are deceased by now) that bore the surnames of his 
>     parent's and grandparent's lines (Munos, Soriano. Escobedo,
Garcia).  
>     His mother was Gorgonia Garcia.  Where and how did this lawyer find 
>     them?  One place name mentioned was "La Gavia", but it is not
one of 
>     the places mentioned in the film I have been looking at (0439867).  
>     In the list of Communidades (Rancherias) de Jerez that I have, La 
>     Gavia is mentioned as being founded by the Garcia-Cadena, Diaz, and 
>     Escobedo families at the end of the 16th century.  The list
names 142 
>     communidades y rancherias for Jerez alone.  Some of my father's 
>     ancestors were Felix, and there is a community or rancho called Los 
>     Felix on the list.  That was founded by Jose and Doroteo Felix. The 
>     community of Tepetongo where my father's ancestors were from was 
>     called Salitrillo, and is not listed in the list for Jerez even 
>     though Tepetongo was in the Jurisdiccion de Jerez.
>     > 
>     > Does anyone know about books for "hijos naturales", etc?
>     > 
>     > Emilie Garcia
>     > Port Orchard, WA.
>     >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
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>

Emilie,

Have you tried Civil Registration?  I don't know if I have the right 
city, but here is this list:

Nacimientos 1902 -  FHL INTL Film [ 1081920 ]
Nacimientos 1903-1904 -  FHL INTL Film [ 1081921 ]
Nacimientos 1905-1906 -  FHL INTL Film [ 1089629 ]

This was taken from:
http://www.familysearch.com/Eng/Library/fhlcatalog/printing/titledetai
lsprint.asp?titleno=310581

Good Luck on your search,
Angie Godina

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia" <auntyemfaustus@h...> 
wrote:
>
> Oh, Angie, Victor,
> 
> I guess the priest my father talked to was correct.  The records 
for 1903 when my father was born were burned during the Revolucion.  
The films skip from 1902 to 1906.  I want to cry. 
> 
> Emilie

Emilie,

Here is this list:
Bautismos de hijos naturales 1867-1891 -  FHL INTL Film [ 439889 ]
Bautismos de hijos naturales 1891-1902 -  FHL INTL Film [ 439890 ]
Bautismos de hijos naturales 1906-1919 -  FHL INTL Film [ 439891 ]
Bautismos de hijos naturales 1953-1961 -  VAULT INTL Film [ 439892 ] 

Taken from this page:
http://www.familysearch.com/Eng/Library/fhlcatalog/printing/titledetai
lsprint.asp?titleno=354158

Good luck on your search,
Angie Godina


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia" <auntyemfaustus@h...> 
wrote:
>
> Yesterday I was at the local FHC again poring over the microfilm 
for baptisms from Jerez around the time my father Guadalupe Olague 
was born (January 28, 1903).  I have never been able to locate my 
father's birth record in it, even though I have found his father in 
Tepetongo (Rancho Salitrillo) and others there back to the early 
1700's. While I was loading the film yesterday, I noticed that the 
title of the book filmed was "Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos", and sure 
enough, I did not find one "hijo natural" or "hijo de padre no 
conocido" in it.  It seems all other films I have searched included 
all baptisms, hijos naturales, adoptivos, etc. even if they made 
reference to other books where the actual names of the parents were 
written.  So, hmmm, was Daddy illegitimate?  If so, is there a book 
for "hijos naturales" that was not microfilmed?  What would such a 
book be called?  Where would one obtain info from such a book, and 
would it take an act of congress to get it?
> 
> My father at one time (in the early 1960's) needed a birth record 
for work and for Social Security and we went from California to Jerez 
to the church there only to have the priest tell him that all records 
for that time period had been burned during the Revolucion.  Sometime 
later, my father must have contacted a lawyer there because after my 
mother died and I was going through all their records, I found an 
affadavit to prove his previously unrecorded birth.  As testigos and 
witnesses that my father was born in Jerez were listed some men 
(maybe they are deceased by now) that bore the surnames of his 
parent's and grandparent's lines (Munos, Soriano. Escobedo, Garcia).  
His mother was Gorgonia Garcia.  Where and how did this lawyer find 
them?  One place name mentioned was "La Gavia", but it is not one of 
the places mentioned in the film I have been looking at (0439867).  
In the list of Communidades (Rancherias) de Jerez that I have, La 
Gavia is mentioned as being founded by the Garcia-Cadena, Diaz, and 
Escobedo families at the end of the 16th century.  The list names 142 
communidades y rancherias for Jerez alone.  Some of my father's 
ancestors were Felix, and there is a community or rancho called Los 
Felix on the list.  That was founded by Jose and Doroteo Felix. The 
community of Tepetongo where my father's ancestors were from was 
called Salitrillo, and is not listed in the list for Jerez even 
though Tepetongo was in the Jurisdiccion de Jerez.
> 
> Does anyone know about books for "hijos naturales", etc?
> 
> Emilie Garcia
> Port Orchard, WA.
>