Dr.mt

hmmmm. . .Cortes and Moctezuma

Published by lunalatina1955 -





bottomMargin=7 leftMargin=7 topMargin=7 rightMargin=7>

face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>

I bet you have seen this, but just in case--personally, I had no idea this
family went to Zacatecas!

 

10. GOVERNOR J size=1>UAN4 P size=1>EREZ-DE-ONATE size=2> (CRISTOBAL3
DE N size=1>AHARRIONDO-PEREZ-DE- size=2>ONATE, J size=1>UAN2 P size=1>EREZ-DE-ONATE size=2>, CRISTOBAL P size=1>EREZ1 DE
NARRIAHONDO) was
born 1552 in Panuco, Zacatecas, Mexico, and died Abt. June 03, 1626 in
Guadalcanal, Spain. He married Dona ISABEL size=2> DE T size=1>OLOSA-CORTEZ- size=2>MOCTEZUMA Abt. 1588 in Panuco,
Zacatecas, Mexico, daughter of Conquistador J size=1>UANES DE size=2>TOLOSA and Dona L size=1>EONOR DE size=2>CORTEZ-M size=1>OCTEZUMA. She was born Abt. 1568 in Mexico City,
F.D., Mexico, and died 1620 in Panuco, Zacatecas, Mexico.


Source:  href="http://www.somosprimos.com/inclan/onate.htm">http://www.somosprimos.com/inclan/onate.htm

Thanks for pointing this out. I did find an entry for the marriage
of Isabel Tolosa to Juan Onate on the IGI in 1569 Panuco, Zacatecas.
However, no film number is given and the source appears to be a
member of the LDS Church. This conflicts with the date of 1588 below.

Maria

I think I just settled the question in my mind about the credibility of the data.  I found this bit of info on Donald Chipman on the University of North Texas website: 


 "Donald Chipman, UNT Professor Emeritus of history and noted historian, was inducted into Spain's Orden de Isabel la Católica, an exclusive society created in 1815 by Ferdinand VII. The decoration ceremony is Spain's equivalent of a knighting ceremony. Chipman was honored for his research and books on the role of Spain in Texas history. Dallas' honorary consul of Spain decorated him with a heavy pendant of pure gold in June 2003. 


In 1992, Chipman won the Presidio La Bahía Award (First Prize) from the Sons of the Republic of Texas for his book, Spanish Texas, 1519-1821, and in 1994, he became a Lifetime Fellow of the Texas State Historical Association. These are just three of Chipman's professional honors.


Chipman taught at UNT from 1964 until his retirement in 1998."


Maria

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, latina1955@... wrote:
>
> Maria:
>
> Here is another lineage documentation for Moctezuma's descendents:
> _http://hometown.aol.com/rdavidh218/azteckings.html_
> (http://hometown.aol.com/rdavidh218/azteckings.html)
>

Maria,
 
This book by Donald Chipman is available through Amazon.com, there is one used book left. I checked my local library and it is only available as a reference book for viewing at the library only.
 
Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo
San Jose, Ca

readysetgo95814 <mcortez3@gmail.com> wrote:

I think I just settled the question in my mind about the credibility of the data.  I found this bit of info on Donald Chipman on the University of North Texas website: 
 "Donald Chipman, UNT Professor Emeritus of history and noted historian, was inducted into Spain's Orden de Isabel la Católica, an exclusive society created in 1815 by Ferdinand VII. The decoration ceremony is Spain's equivalent of a knighting ceremony. Chipman was honored for his
research and books on the role of Spain in Texas history. Dallas' honorary consul of Spain decorated him with a heavy pendant of pure gold in June 2003. 
In 1992, Chipman won the Presidio La Bahía Award (First Prize) from the Sons of the Republic of Texas for his book, Spanish Texas, 1519-1821, and in 1994, he became a Lifetime Fellow of the Texas State Historical Association. These are just three of Chipman's professional honors.
Chipman taught at UNT from 1964 until his retirement in 1998."
Maria

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, latina1955@... wrote:
>
> Maria:
>
> Here is another lineage documentation for Moctezuma's descendents:
> _http://hometown.aol.com/rdavidh218/azteckings.html_
> (http://hometown.aol.com/rdavidh218/azteckings.html)
>






color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Maria,

    face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I do have the book by Chipman, and the Inclan
data.  I just have to sit down and compare... 

color=#0000ff size=2>Irma




From: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
readysetgo95814
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 7:35
AM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Re: hmmmm.
. .Cortes and Moctezuma


I came across this message on the Ancestry message forum: 

href="http://genforum.genealogy.com/mexico/messages/8185.html">http://genforum.genealogy.com/mexico/messages/8185.html

The
message lists the descendancy of Moctezuma and cites the source
as John
Inclan, who in turn lists Donald Chipman's book "Moctezuma's
Children, Aztec
Royalty Under Spanish Rule" as his source.  Does
anyone have this
book?  My ancestress Petrona Siordia m. Juan Padilla
in 1616 in
Aguascalientes, would be a descendant of one of those
lines and I would like
to know if the data is credible or why it
isn't.

Maria

--- In
ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Puentes <makas@...> wrote:
>
>

> Now I was just talking to Arturo yesterday about how tightly knit

we are
> and how since the inception of the group there had never
been a
flame
> war. I don't want this to errupt into the first one.
We have some
strong
> view points being expressed here and there is
nothing wrong with
that.
> I'm just running interference and asking
those of you that reply to
this
> thread to choose your words
carefully and lets remember how much we
love
> each other. . .es
verdad, que no?
>
>  From my brief time knowing John I don't
believe he would claim
> decendancy from just sharing a name. I myself
claim decendancy from
the
> Robledo family that was in New Mexico I
believe in 1598, but I
haven't
> actually done or confirmed the
research myself. I'm leaning on the
> integrity of a cousin/author in
California that is much better
versed in
> the genealogy of that
area. I'm sure that John has a stronger
reason to
> believe
decendancy from Moctezuma based on a genealogical
investigation
> and
not generalizations. Having said that I know for myself that I
have
>
the strong need to eventually confirm those records relating me to
the

> Robledo family so I can have complete confidence and without even

asking
> him I believe John shares these same thoughts. If there was
only
time
> for all we want to do.
>
> How about we look
into this matter over the next few months as time
> allows and examine
the reasons why certain ones claim decendancy
and
> others like
myself can't claim it to any tribe and much less to any
> individual.
Let's take a controversial subject and use it toward
the
>
advancement of our research and understanding of our heritage.
>
>
joseph
>
>
>
> Emilie Garcia wrote:
>
>
> John, you don't need lessons in anything.  I was being facetious

when
> > I said "I am sure we are all descended from -----", and I
did not
say
> > Cortes and his men married only Aztec
royalty.  Also no one
really
> > knows the real total of the
pre-columbian population, and by the
era
> > of our ancestors in
our target area most had mixed blood. We now
know
> > they married
anybody and created, what was it--32 different
racial
> >
classifications?    It's just that I am bemused when people from

our
> > target area claim ancestry from the grand-children or

> > great-grand-children of one of the many Moctezumas, who were

Aztecs
> > and not Zacatecan, Guachachile, Cazcane, Chichimeca,
Huichoil,
etc.
> > and who lived far from there and were killed so
long before the
> > settlement of that area.  Just which
Moctezumas and Corteses
ended up
> > there? 
>
> 
> > I don't have to tell you how surnames evolved in
Mexico;
sometimes we
> > can't find someone because they used
their maternal surname or an
> > adopted one for whatever
reason.  My husband laughs at those so
ready
> > to claim
ancestry from the great Moctezuma or Cortes because in
many
> >
cases the Spaniards would just hang any name on someone as a joke
> >
rather than let them keep their own native names, or people would
name

> > themselves after someone of "import".  So many people are to

ready
> > to think they are descended from an Indian Princess or

Conquistador. 
> > I just cringe.  My husband has the
names in his family tree of
people
> > who were prominent in
Spain.  Does he care if he is really
descended
> > from the
great Cervantes or the Duke of Alba? No. My husband
says, "el
> >
que no tiene nombre, Garcia se le pone".  That goes for any name
>
> in Spain or Mexico.
> > 
> > I know Moctezuma was
not the father of all Mexico, so why should
> > someone boast about a
name in their ancestry that has taken on
> > mythical proportions? He
was a cruel pagan who got his just
desserts
> > with the help of
other natives who suffered under him.  He and
Cortez
> > were
cruel and ruthless.  The great ones are the nameless ones
who
>
> persevered under such harsh conditions.  My surnames are just a

tool
> > to lead me to where I came from, the migrations, culture,
etc.  I
am
> > glad they had any surnames at all since so
many did not. As for
being
> > a descendant of an Indian Princess
or Conquistador, I am not so
ready
> > to believe it just because
of a name.
> > 
> > Emilie Garcia
> > Port
Orchard, WA ---
> >
> >     ----- Original
Message -----
> >     From: John Gonzalez
<mailto:1gnzlz@...>
> >     To:
ranchos@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com&gt;
>
>     Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:18 PM
>
>     Subject: Re: [ranchos] Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] SoCal
Meeting
> >
> >     I guess I need a
history lesson.  Emilie you say: " I am sure
we
>
>     ALL descend from Cortes and his men, their
wives,mistresses
and
> >     Aztec
royalty"  I believe at the time of the conquest the
>
>     population of Mexico was estimated at about 10
million.  I bet
> >     some of them never got
any Spanish blood.  Are you saying that
>
>     Cortes' men only married Aztec royalty?  I
don't think all of
the
> >     Aztecs descended
fron just one man, Moctezuma. Moctezuma was
not
>
>     the "Adam" of Mexico.
>
>     
> >    
1gnzlz@... <mailto:1gnzlz@...>
>
>
>








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Irma,

 

The direct descendants of Cortes and Moctezuma are listed in the IGI, down
to the most recent ones born around 1951. Because of their
proven bloodlines they were given royal titles, etc.   If
your recent ancestors aren't listed there, then you have to back-track and see
if you have the right Joses and Marias and make sure surnames were not adopted
or changed.  It might turn out that your lines will back-track to a related
or collateral line or an illegitimate line of the official direct
descendants, but you have to do the actual tedious back-tracking and not just
join what you have to what has been published elsewhere, which may or may not be
documented but only presumed when compared to other data that led them to
believe that there is most likely a valid connection.

 

Emilie Garcia

Port Orchard, WA ---

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----

From: title=mailto:igomezlucero@csus.edu href="mailto:igomezlucero@csus.edu">Irma
GomezLucero


Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 3:57
PM

Subject: RE: [ranchos] Re: hmmmm. .
.Cortes and Moctezuma



color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Maria,

   
I do have the book by Chipman, and the
Inclan data.  I just have to sit down and compare... 

color=#0000ff size=2>Irma




From: href="mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com">ranchos@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
readysetgo95814
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 7:35
AM
To: href="mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com">ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[ranchos] Re: hmmmm. . .Cortes and Moctezuma


I came across this message on the Ancestry message forum: 

href="http://genforum.genealogy.com/mexico/messages/8185.html">http://genforum.genealogy.com/mexico/messages/8185.html

The
message lists the descendancy of Moctezuma and cites the source
as John
Inclan, who in turn lists Donald Chipman's book "Moctezuma's
Children,
Aztec Royalty Under Spanish Rule" as his source.  Does
anyone have
this book?  My ancestress Petrona Siordia m. Juan Padilla
in 1616 in
Aguascalientes, would be a descendant of one of those
lines and I would
like to know if the data is credible or why it

isn't.

Maria

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Puentes
<makas@...> wrote:
>
>
> Now I was just talking to
Arturo yesterday about how tightly knit
we are
> and how since the
inception of the group there had never been a
flame
> war. I don't
want this to errupt into the first one. We have some
strong
> view
points being expressed here and there is nothing wrong with
that.
>
I'm just running interference and asking those of you that reply to
this

> thread to choose your words carefully and lets remember how much we

love
> each other. . .es verdad, que no?
>
> 
From my brief time knowing John I don't believe he would claim
>
decendancy from just sharing a name. I myself claim decendancy from
the

> Robledo family that was in New Mexico I believe in 1598, but I

haven't
> actually done or confirmed the research myself. I'm
leaning on the
> integrity of a cousin/author in California that is
much better
versed in
> the genealogy of that area. I'm sure that
John has a stronger
reason to
> believe decendancy from Moctezuma
based on a genealogical
investigation
> and not generalizations.
Having said that I know for myself that I
have
> the strong need to
eventually confirm those records relating me to
the
> Robledo
family so I can have complete confidence and without even
asking
>
him I believe John shares these same thoughts. If there was only
time

> for all we want to do.
>
> How about we look into this
matter over the next few months as time
> allows and examine the
reasons why certain ones claim decendancy
and
> others like myself
can't claim it to any tribe and much less to any
> individual. Let's
take a controversial subject and use it toward
the
> advancement of
our research and understanding of our heritage.
>
>
joseph
>
>
>
> Emilie Garcia wrote:
>

> > John, you don't need lessons in anything.  I was being
facetious
when
> > I said "I am sure we are all descended from
-----", and I did not
say
> > Cortes and his men married only
Aztec royalty.  Also no one
really
> > knows the real total
of the pre-columbian population, and by the
era
> > of our
ancestors in our target area most had mixed blood. We now
know
>
> they married anybody and created, what was it--32 different
racial

> > classifications?    It's just that I am bemused
when people from
our
> > target area claim ancestry from the
grand-children or
> > great-grand-children of one of the many
Moctezumas, who were
Aztecs
> > and not Zacatecan, Guachachile,
Cazcane, Chichimeca, Huichoil,
etc.
> > and who lived far from
there and were killed so long before the
> > settlement of that
area.  Just which Moctezumas and Corteses
ended up
> >
there? 
> > 
> > I don't have to tell you how
surnames evolved in Mexico;
sometimes we
> > can't find someone
because they used their maternal surname or an
> > adopted one for
whatever reason.  My husband laughs at those so
ready
> >
to claim ancestry from the great Moctezuma or Cortes because in
many

> > cases the Spaniards would just hang any name on someone as a
joke
> > rather than let them keep their own native names, or people
would
name
> > themselves after someone of "import".  So
many people are to
ready
> > to think they are descended from an
Indian Princess or
Conquistador. 
> > I just cringe. 
My husband has the names in his family tree of
people
> > who
were prominent in Spain.  Does he care if he is really
descended

> > from the great Cervantes or the Duke of Alba? No. My husband

says, "el
> > que no tiene nombre, Garcia se le pone". 
That goes for any name
> > in Spain or Mexico.
> > 

> > I know Moctezuma was not the father of all Mexico, so why should

> > someone boast about a name in their ancestry that has taken on

> > mythical proportions? He was a cruel pagan who got his just

desserts
> > with the help of other natives who suffered under
him.  He and
Cortez
> > were cruel and ruthless.  The
great ones are the nameless ones
who
> > persevered under such
harsh conditions.  My surnames are just a
tool
> > to lead
me to where I came from, the migrations, culture, etc.  I
am
>
> glad they had any surnames at all since so many did not. As for
being

> > a descendant of an Indian Princess or Conquistador, I am not so

ready
> > to believe it just because of a name.
>
> 
> > Emilie Garcia
> > Port Orchard, WA
---
> >
> >     ----- Original Message
-----
> >     From: John Gonzalez
<mailto:1gnzlz@...>
> >     To:
ranchos@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com&gt;
>
>     Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:18 PM
>
>     Subject: Re: [ranchos] Re: [Nuestros Ranchos]
SoCal Meeting
> >
> >     I guess I need
a history lesson.  Emilie you say: " I am sure
we
>
>     ALL descend from Cortes and his men, their
wives,mistresses
and
> >     Aztec
royalty"  I believe at the time of the conquest the
>
>     population of Mexico was estimated at about 10
million.  I bet
> >     some of them never
got any Spanish blood.  Are you saying that
>
>     Cortes' men only married Aztec royalty?  I
don't think all of
the
> >     Aztecs
descended fron just one man, Moctezuma. Moctezuma was
not
>
>     the "Adam" of Mexico.
>
>     
> >    
1gnzlz@... <mailto:1gnzlz@...>
>
>
>




Emilie,

The entries in the IGI are not always correct. If you read a prior
message I quoted on one of those descendants; you'll see that the IGI
data was submitted by a member of the LDS church, and doesn't include
a film number.

I've seen Irma's work for myself and can tell you that she has put
her time in at her local FHC doing the tedious back-tracking to put
together her family tree. She is also not one to jump to conclusions
and any claims she makes can be supported with hard facts and
documental evidence.

Joseph restricts membership to this group to only serious
genealogists and that is why I turn to this group when I have
questions.

Maria

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