Hello "My Genes",
Having descended from the Hurtado de Mendozas and the Perez, Franco families from Los Altos, I would be very interested in this documentation. These are my father's lines, and although we have always been very Catholic, I have noticed a few small things that might be Sephardic in general.
I have also read the chapter from "Retonos..." where Mariano dispels Jewish and French lines. In my research, I have never ran across French names, Altenos are a very closed society--remember: is mejor conocido que por conocer--proper Altenas would never run off and marry a French soldier, plus the French were never known to be in our area. I vaguely recall Mariano's references to these people being a very Catholic society (remember la Cristiada), and he did give examples of why this society could not be Jewish. Possibly we were Jewish, but it was too long ago to really matter in everyday life.
At any rate, I would be interested in this documentation you have run across. I do recall that the Perez came from Huelva, Espana, and the former prime minister of Israel, Shimon Perez. That's about it.
Thanks,
Irma Gomez gtz
N. Calif.
1. Re: mixture of clans (mygenes2000@yahoo.com)
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:47:51 +0000
From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] mixture of clans
Message-ID:
<942282224-1266972290-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-160926564…>
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Most of The first families from jalisco were related through the hernandez de hijar and the hurtado de mendoza and there is clear documentation showing at least 4 moor lines and other jewish (marano) lines this is not an opinion, there is clear evidence of this. The mountains where the mendoza family came from was originally a jewish area. Many of The families that the mendoza married into in Castilla also originated from this jewish area. I also believe that the perez that married into the francos to form the perez franco de paredes family were from the jewish perestrello family of portugal this family was originally the Pallestrelli family of Genoa. This last bit of info is the only info here that has not been clearly documented yet and some people disagree with my opinion of where the perez came from.
I repeat, the connection to the hernandez de hijar and mendoza lines to jewish and moorish ancestors have been documented
*************
Since this site does not feel that it is the appropriate place to discuss judeochristian and Jews that I have found to be los alto de ancestors I will refrain from posting here the findings from many, many, many years of study on the genealogy of Toribio Hernandez de Arellano. Toribio's daughters and grandchildren married into the other founding families of Los altos de Jalisco . For those that are interested in learning about his genealogy, I will post when the book I am writing is published.
R A Ricci
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Mr. Ricci,
In your studies have you determined who the parents of Toribio Hernandez de
Arellano are, or at least who the possible parents might be?
Paige
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I have determined who his parents are, his ancestry, and have stories to tell about them. There are court records of a scandal that his great uncles were involved in. Even though his father and grandfather were not found guilty, other family members were found guilty. I won't write more here. If you are interested but don't want to buy the book, I'm sure someone will post excerpts once the book is published.
Since this site does not feel that it is the appropriate place to discuss judeochristian and Jews that I have found to be Los Altos de Jalisco ancestors, I will refrain from posting here the findings from many, many, many years of study on the genealogy of Toribio Hernandez de Arellano. Toribio's daughters and grandchildren married into the other founding families of Los altos de Jalisco . When the book I am writing is published, I will post where you can buy it.
R A Ricci
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Would you be willing to share the parents of Toribio Hernandez de
Arellano with the rest of us?
Paige
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You are going to have to wait for the book.
Since this site does not feel that it is the appropriate place to discuss judeochristian and Jews that I have found to be Los Altos de Jalisco ancestors, I will refrain from posting here the findings from many, many, many years of study on the genealogy of Toribio Hernandez de Arellano. Toribio's daughters and grandchildren married into the other founding families of Los altos de Jalisco . When the book I am writing is published, I will post where you can buy it.
The last time that I participated in this discussion on this ancestry, I felt it was best that I stay away from this website. I got over it and came back a couple of years ago but don't care to continue this discussion here. I will continue to post on other subjects. Even after I publish this book, I will not discuss this research on this website since it has been found to be an inappropriate place for this information.
Ironically, some of the people who made what I feel were
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I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were mostly part of the "orden de santiago" a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly Celtic origins.
Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So, there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country. Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they too were Catholic.
Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a great
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"Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various reasons especially to gain money and position.
My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in Mexico or going back to Spain.
He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture of cultures in Spain over the centuries: "Christian families with more pedigree than cash, or with a prudent respect for ability accepted them [Jews] in marriage. ..In this way the Spanish people, especially the upper classes, received a substantial infusion of Jewish blood. Ferdinand the Catholic and Torquemada the Inquisitor had Jews in their ancestry. Pope Paul IV, at war with Phillip II, called him and the Spanish 'worthless seed of the Jews and Moors'".
I know that the rest of Europe looked askance at Spaniards and Portuguese
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Hello Emile
As of now there is an amplitude of genetic studies pro and con trying to clamp down on a "Jewish" signature in a person's dna. At first it was believed that the CMH or Cohen Modal Haplogroup repeating code was a signature that must, and I mean must, mean Jewish ancestory.
Unfortunately for those believing that the CMH was the end all say all in proving descendancy from the Priest Aaron, brother of Moses was spread throughout several
y paternal Haplogroups. Which would have made it out of the range in Torah or Old Testament Timelines.
At this point, the current idea is that haplogroup J1e, which according to one mutation rate is the y haplo marker for descendacy of the man from the Hyskos group named Aaron. Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron
But there is another camp, which believes that this marker appeared around Roman times, which could be a priestly survivor of the Jewish Diaspora. Anyone having this marker has a higher chance of being
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Actapatio---Look for my response to your post here on the General list. If you insist on continuing this debate please do not use this Research list since those who signed up for only the Research list do not appreciate seeing debates of this kind.
Emilie
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:42:18 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>
> Hello Emile
>
> As of now there is an amplitude of genetic studies pro and con trying to clamp down on a "Jewish" signature in a person's dna. At first it was believed that the CMH or Cohen Modal Haplogroup repeating code was a signature that must, and I mean must, mean Jewish ancestory.
>
> Unfortunately for those believing that the CMH was the end all say all in proving descendancy from the Priest Aaron, brother of Moses was spread throughout several
> y paternal Haplogroups. Which would have made it out of the range in Torah or Old Testament
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I don't see where he made a statement of Spaniards being "pure". You do seem
to want Spaniards to have even more Jewish and Moorish ancestry than what
could be the case. Spain is 67% European origin, mainly R1b. No one is
certain what the actual ethnic origins of of the non-R1b people are, they
only know where most of the people are today that share that DNA and
specific markers. Therefore as stated before, it could be what some people
call Y-DNA of Moors and Jews could actually be of other ethnic groups.
Why the comments about what the Pope said and whether or not the EU wanted
to accept Spain? I don't see how they matter. Calling us mongrels is pretty
low.
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Emilie Garcia
wrote:
>
> "Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples
> and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various
> reasons especially to gain money and position.
>
>
>
> My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes
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Mongrels, Mutts...she means "mixed" and every last one of us are mixed, that is the truth. Not one ethnic group in Europe is pure, German, Spanish,English,Italian ALL are mixed. I hope that this is all a misunderstanding and we're not kidding ourselves into thinking that one group is superior to another..that is for small minds and people who want to drag us back to the Middle ages. If anything DNA has proven that you can't judge a book by it's cover.
Robert~
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Mongrel and mutt are derogatory terms when speaking about people. I don't
know why you think somebody is trying to claim purity. If you had read my
other posts your response would have been different.
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 9:08 PM, wrote:
> Mongrels, Mutts...she means "mixed" and every last one of us are mixed,
> that is the truth. Not one ethnic group in Europe is pure, German,
> Spanish,English,Italian ALL are mixed. I hope that this is all a
> misunderstanding and we're not kidding ourselves into thinking that one
> group is superior to another..that is for small minds and people who want to
> drag us back to the Middle ages. If anything DNA has proven that you can't
> judge a book by it's cover.
> Robert~
>
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Armando, If you choose to be insulted that is your choice. Maybe the words could have been chosen a bit more tactfully, but anyway you slice it...WE ARE MESTIZOS.
Not only us, but Spaniards,Poles,Germans,Italians etc.
Robert~
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Look for my response to this post on the General list. This Research list is strictly for those discussing the genealogical info on their ancestors. The General list is for other types of discussions.
Emilie
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:46:49 -0600
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
> I don't see where he made a statement of Spaniards being "pure". You do seem
> to want Spaniards to have even more Jewish and Moorish ancestry than what
> could be the case. Spain is 67% European origin, mainly R1b. No one is
> certain what the actual ethnic origins of of the non-R1b people are, they
> only know where most of the people are today that share that DNA and
> specific markers. Therefore as stated before, it could be what some people
> call Y-DNA of Moors and Jews could actually be of other ethnic groups.
>
> Why the comments about what the Pope said and whether or not the EU wanted
> to accept
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Thank you, Emilie!
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:12:54
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
Look for my response to this post on the General list. This Research list is strictly for those discussing the genealogical info on their ancestors. The General list is for other types of discussions.
Emilie
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:46:49 -0600
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
> I don't see where he made a statement of Spaniards being "pure". You do seem
> to want Spaniards to have even more Jewish and Moorish ancestry than what
> could be the case. Spain is 67% European origin, mainly R1b. No one is
> certain what the actual ethnic origins of of the non-R1b people are, they
> only know where most of the people are today that share that DNA and
> specific markers. Therefore
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Spain is as European as it gets, I think many people are shocked that"white people" speak Spanish, the Spaniards and their descendants.European=Christian. I think its the English who invited Spain to becomethe next member of the EU. England and Spain have always had an interestingrelationship. The EU was also formed in an effort to unite Europe. We say WWI andWWII how nationalism and the belief of superiority led to the destructionof Europe. Not all of Europe is in the EU perhaps they still dont seecertain countries as their equal, not sure. But in reality all Europeansare related. All of our ancestors came from the Germanic, Latin, Ruso,Greeks, Celtic and Roman people.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:46:49 -0600
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
> I don't see where he made a statement
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King alfonso ix had a mistress leonor guzman that was not a mistress that was hidden in a castle. She lived her life and was treated as if she was the legitimate wife and took the place of queen as long as alfonso xI lived. Her sons from him are the ancestors of many altenos. She came from a prestigious jewish family.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:33:30
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
"Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various reasons especially to gain money and position.
My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in Mexico or going back to Spain.
He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture of cultures in Spain over the
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Wasnt only Leonor's mom Jewish? I thought her paternal side was anoble family?
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 03:04:28 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
> King alfonso ix had a mistress leonor guzman that was not a mistress that was hidden in a castle. She lived her life and was treated as if she was the legitimate wife and took the place of queen as long as alfonso xI lived. Her sons from him are the ancestors of many altenos. She came from a prestigious jewish family.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Emilie Garcia
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:33:30
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
>
> "Genetic evidence" and evidence you "have read" is like comparing apples and oranges. People used
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Group,
I am really surprised this argument has dragged on this long, It
doesn't seem to further any genealogical activity. I see a confusion
of race and relgion,and
everyone who offers DNA evidence so far has overlooked the female
MtDNA part of the equation. There are plenty of sites on the interent
where racial purity can be discussed.
Eric Robledo Edgar
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:19 AM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
wrote:
>
> Wasnt only Leonor's mom Jewish? I thought her paternal side was anoble family?
> Regards,Daniel
>
> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
>
>
>
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
>> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 03:04:28 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>>
>> King alfonso ix had a mistress leonor guzman that was not a mistress that was hidden in a castle. She lived her life and was treated as if she was the legitimate wife and took the
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
I agree. Although an important subject, is the appropriate forum?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: eric edgar
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:53:43
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
Group,
I am really surprised this argument has dragged on this long, It
doesn't seem to further any genealogical activity. I see a confusion
of race and relgion,and
everyone who offers DNA evidence so far has overlooked the female
MtDNA part of the equation. There are plenty of sites on the interent
where racial purity can be discussed.
Eric Robledo Edgar
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:19 AM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
wrote:
>
> Wasnt only Leonor's mom Jewish? I thought her paternal side was anoble family?
> Regards,Daniel
>
> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
>
>
>
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
>> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 03:04:28 +0000
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Here Here!
I think it amazing how these discussions go on and on. As long as you
all discuss things in a civil manner I try not to butt in. In this
situation I just want to jump in with both feet in agreement with Eric
and ask everyone to try really hard to bring discussions strongly in the
direction of genealogy of the estados of Jalisco, Zacatecas y/o
Aguascalientes. Yes if you want continue the discussion of this topic
but lets bring some good HARD genealogy into it. Show some documents,
show some film records to refer to, give some fact based oral history
accounts, generally work hard to edify as much as you can with EVERY
reply you make to the group.
IF you have a short comment to make to a CERTAIN individual why not
consider making that comment in a private email, then again even if it
is short but if contains info that can edify others in the group well by
all means send it out to the many.
Just my thoughts,
joseph
======================
Joseph Puentes
NoMeat
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Well the present day Jewish Community in Jalisco:
vivelacomunidad.com
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Many of us from los altos descend from king enrique II of spain and his brothers many times over. He and his bothers had descended form jews on his mothers side. I have also found that they descend from moors through at least 4 separate lines.
I also descend from an ancestor of many altenos that was put on trial for continuing to practice judaism on saturdays even though he practiced catholicism on The other 6 days of the week. The trial and conviction is a matter of public record.
Another family with converso as ancestors are the perez franco de paredes whom all oveR los altos and this is from both perez anD franco ancestors.
As to the moor lines I will be providing accurate documentaion of these lines in an essay / article that I am writing.
I have not used dna or clothing or food but plain genealogical/historical research.
------Original Message------
From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Hello Robert/Gandalf
I agree with you, especially with the markers J2 and J1 which number wise outweigh worldwide practicing jews. There are more j2 and j1 in the entire world that are non jewish.
In regards to the Southwest...
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ances…
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Hello R.A. Ricci, my family is from el Valle de Guadalupe. Is this docmented? Neither of my grandfathers r.i.p never said anything about this...please point me in the right direction...
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If I may, I want to first say that I agree with the statement that we all participate on this forum to learn and share ideas \ info. I think it is a wonderful resource and my thanks to those that allow us all to participate. I also want to say to Emilie that she is correct, we are all of us, mutts. I always enjoy your posts Emilie, you are a very wise woman.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with being proud of our ancestry, it is diverse and beautiful and DNA is a wonderful tool to help us get better aquainted (sp?) with our "ante pasados". Myself, my DNA is called the "Balkan Marker", which is E-V13, Along with men in Spain,I share exact matches with many Greeks and Bulgarians as well as some "primos" on this very forum. When I started my research I had no idea that one day I would have the same DNA as Lyndon B. Johnson, the Wright Brothers, George Stephanopoulos as well as the Hatfield clan from the famous "Hatfield \ McCoy feud, it is mind blowing.
We should be proud
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Hi Aaron, funny thing...I'm also a decendant of a Casillas clan, not sure if it's the one you are referring too though. My family, the Gonzalez-Casillas were one of the first Spanish families to settle the villa San Jose De Bazarte, which was originally calle "San Jose de Moctezuma. My great grandfather, Gregorio Gonzalez was married to Teodosia Casillas and he is buried underneath the altar of the small church \capia in the villa itself. The Gonzalez clan were known as "Los Valientes" because of their tendency to fight, not only for their own self preservation, but in the causes of others. They were known for their abilites as horsemen, something to be proud of since most Altenos learn to ride at an ealry age. My grandfather and his brothers were all large men, six foot plus, and all blond haired and blue eyed, except my granfather who had jet black hair. The reason I'm telling you this is because , one....maybe we're realted...two their DNA was not R1b...rather it is E-V13. How can
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Most of the founding alteno families were from the North in Spain so thatmight explain the strong Celtic and Germanic roots. Some did comefrom the south.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:59:51 -0800
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] General Digest \Aaron
>
> Hello
>
> Yes we are talking about the founding Altenos (non meso americans) of that region as a
> majority were Western Europeans paternally. As the main topic claims that they were
> jewish, I am proving as a descendant of one of the settlers and having taking a DNA test
> that my return was one of the R1b Celtic subclades. Yes there are many different
> subclades down from R1b, however again restating, the Casillas from Martin Casillas was
> determined by Nordvert's haplogroup predictor to be Frisian, which is also a designator
> of Celtic-p
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Well said Robert, I dont think anyone can say all altenos have a certain blood until oneunderstands the genetics of that person. To say he has to have moor or converso bloodjust because he is spaniard is a bit iffy. Im sure there are Altenos that dont even have nativeamerican blood and there are people saying he has to just because. Doesnt make sense.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/
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What part of Los Altos are you from? The name of your pueblo? Los Altos is referred to as the "The Highlands" the pueblos in the mountaineous areas of Jalisco.
Some people in our region probably have Jewish ancestry. One has to research and find out. But there are some traditional things we have in Jalisco that have Jewish origin.
"La Capirotada" http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/384/capirotada.jpg
"Semas" http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2840/comidasemas.jpg
Another thing is the style of our houses in the pueblos in the highlands of Jalisco. Stone blocked shaped houses, fences that are slabs of stone piled on top of one another. The elderly ladies that were those long black cloaks with white spots draped over the heads. Makes one wonder?
When I see movies about ancient Jerusalum, Israel.....kind of has a resemblance to the styles of our pueblos.
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Most of family is from valle de gpe. Tepa and Jalos. My great uncle, may he rest in peace, is Dr Rito Romo Franco.
Dr rito romo franco and his brother, my maternal grandfather, hermenegildo romo franco were 3rd cousins (3 times) of santo toribio romo gonzalez.
------Original Message------
From: zacatecano020@hotmail.com
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
Sent: Feb 25, 2010 6:37 PM
What part of Los Altos are you from? The name of your pueblo? Los Altos is referred to as the "The Highlands" the pueblos in the mountaineous areas of Jalisco.
People in our region probably have Jewish ancestry. One has to research and find out. But there are some traditional things we have in Jalisco that have Jewish origin.
"La Capirotada" http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/384/capirotada.jpg
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There are stone blocked shaped houses and fences made of slabs of stone all
over the world. They don't point to Jewish origins at all, unless the whole
ancient world was Jewish. Apart from that, customs can be adopted by people
that aren't related. For example, the Normans spoke French but were actually
descendants of Vikings. The Irish spoke Gaelic but are relatives of the
Basque, proven so with DNA. The rodeo is from Mexico, but practiced by the
world now. The whole world plays an English sport, football. Therefore,
without having documentation or science to prove the source means it is only
speculation at the time and doesn't prove anything. Meaning that Los Altos
may eat capirotada and semas due to influence from other areas, and not
because of a converso population. For example mole, all of Mexico eats it,
but it was invented in Puebla by a nun. Does that mean all Mexicans have
poblanos ancestry? The answer is no. Therefore, Is there proof that
capirotada and semas are eaten in
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My research has to do with tracing ancestors. I have not based it on capirotada. My research has led to my relatives intermarrying over and over again with marriage to someone from out of the family circle once in a blue moon. The thing is that my research is into all my ancestors and not just the ones taditionally looked at by genealogist. In our culture the jews, moors, indian, and black lines have sometimes been lines that people wanted to hide.
I believed, in the beginning that I would have half indian And half spanish ancestors. I wAs surprised to find ancestors that were over 80 per cent white 1 percent black less than 10 Per cent indian. It is difficult for anyone to do a mexican genealogy and claim to be 100 percent white for at least two reasons
1 espanol meant you were at least 7/8 white.
2. Most of my ancestors, the first settlers, that originally came over were not themselves 100 per cent white
The closeset mexican genealogy that comes to 100 per cent white is
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Tu si sabes !!!!!!
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El jue 25-feb-10, Armando Antuñano escribió:
De:: Armando Antuñano
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
A: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: jueves, 25 de febrero de 2010, 22:26
There are stone blocked shaped houses and fences made of slabs of stone all
over the world. They don't point to Jewish origins at all, unless the whole
ancient world was Jewish. Apart from that, customs can be adopted by people
that aren't related. For example, the Normans spoke French but were actually
descendants of Vikings. The Irish spoke Gaelic but are relatives of the
Basque, proven so with DNA. The rodeo is from Mexico, but practiced by the
world now. The whole world plays an English sport, football. Therefore,
without having documentation or science to prove the source means it is only
speculation at the time and doesn't prove anything. Meaning that Los Altos
may eat capirotada and semas due to influence from other areas, and not
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Well said Armando, very well said. My Alvarez lineage (valle de guadalupe) returned Haplogroup I1 ultra nordic. With hits in Eastern England and throughout Scandanavia. It is my current believe that this part of the family came to los Altos with the French, descendants of Normans who were descendants of Vikings...
We can be found on facebook under haplogroup I1
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Not only the French but also remember that Spaniards can also carry almost any halogroupeveryone n Europe is related. Im sure some Spaniards that arrived carried I1 ultra nordic.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:02:01 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>
> Well said Armando, very well said. My Alvarez lineage (valle de guadalupe) returned Haplogroup I1 ultra nordic. With hits in Eastern England and throughout Scandanavia. It is my current believe that this part of the family came to los Altos with the French, descendants of Normans who were descendants of Vikings...
>
> We can be found on facebook under haplogroup I1
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En todfo el mundo hay tradiciónes judias, todo el mundo es judio ?
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El jue 25-feb-10, zacatecano020@hotmail.com escribió:
De:: zacatecano020@hotmail.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
A: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: jueves, 25 de febrero de 2010, 20:37
What part of Los Altos are you from? The name of your pueblo? Los Altos is referred to as the "The Highlands" the pueblos in the mountaineous areas of Jalisco.
People in our region probably have Jewish ancestry. One has to research and find out. But there are some traditional things we have in Jalisco that have Jewish origin.
"La Capirotada" http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/384/capirotada.jpg
"Semas" http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2840/comidasemas.jpg
Another thing is the style of our houses in the pueblos in the highlands of Jalisco. Stone blocked shaped houses, fences that are slabs of stone piled on top of one another. The elderly ladies that were
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My family comes from Los Altos as well, just outside of Tepatitlan, San Jose De Bazarte. First of all,let me say that I'd be proud of my ancestors regardless of background. All of these so called Jewish traits,such as intermarriage within the family, fundemental Catholosism and ladies in " long black cloaks" seem pretty mundane and not evident of any real Jewish tradition, they could all be assigned to any almost European country, especailly in the Mediterranean. The Hapsburg (sp?) rulers of Spain were inbred to a scary degree, they were not Jewish...intermarriage is to keep a blood line "pure" and not only a Jewish trait. don't subscribe to any such notion, I think it is repulsive, and I'm not saying Altenos are descendents of any royal line,just pointing out what history has taught us.
I'm pretty active in the Genetic community and it's laughable to me that anytime a Y DNA marker other than the "Atlantic" R1b marker is mentioned it's automatically assumed to be Moorish or Jewish (
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Hello Robert and mr Ruben Casillas (pariente)
I agree 100% I know that Ruben and I have independantly through research and dna testing that the families are Celtic and European, not of jewish ancestory. Both Ruben and I have seen also read Alberto Casillas book on the Casillas, an intensive lineage of the Casillas and the related families. Ruben has also written a book recently.
The families are not jewish, the Catholic religion is based on jewish traditions, this is not the same as being from the Hebrew/Hyskos people who came out of Egypt.
To me this fantasy of wanting to be jewish stems from wanting to be something else, the other, the victim...what an irony since the families from los Altos came out of the families that were the aggressors, the victimizer, we are the conquistadores and colonists.
I'm going to repost a comment I made above:
I'd like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The
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Hello actapatio,primo, falta poco para terminar el segundo libro, llevo 160 paginas, es el libro de Jose Alberto corregido y aumentado, y alli esta tu rama genealógica , Saludos
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El sáb 27-feb-10, actapatio2007@yahoo.com escribió:
De:: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
A: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado, 27 de febrero de 2010, 12:36
Hello Robert and mr Ruben Casillas (pariente)
I agree 100% I know that Ruben and I have independantly through research and dna testing that the families are Celtic and European, not of jewish ancestory. Both Ruben and I have seen also read Alberto Casillas book on the Casillas, an intensive lineage of the Casillas and the related families. Ruben has also written a book recently.
The families are not jewish, the Catholic religion is based on jewish traditions, this is not the same as being from the Hebrew/Hyskos people who came out of Egypt.
To me this fantasy
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Que bueno primo...muchos saludos! Como la vez, la gente que no saben quien son los Casillas no conocen los origen de los Altenos!
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I can appreciate that Nuestros Ranchos members are all at different stages of research. Some are newbies, while others have been doing this for decades...so it is with an open mind and a heart full of respect that I write this post.
Is the argument we are having against the idea that we may have old Converso ancestry, or that someone out there is disseminating stories that there were Crypto Jews in Los Altos? I am reading both in the previous posts.
When we think about ALTENO settlers, yes--some may have been descendants of "Converso" Jews who converted to Christianity when the monarchs of Spain gave Jews an option to covert or leave the country. But by the time our ancestors took up the sword to conquer and pillage Nueva Galicia, they were assimilated Catholics (presumably). Besides the fact that some were knights in the various military Orders (recognized as religious by the Pope), they had to prove they were "old Christians" and present genealogical evidence and have witnesses
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Claudia, That is a great question ! I came to this whole discussion late in the game, I tried to stay out as long as I could but felt I needed some people to clarify...or at least justify what they were posting. My understanding is that it was proof of Jewish ancestry via DNA testing, but I could be wrong. People did mention building style as well as clothing, but I can't see proof of anything from those two statements. Great insight in regards to Conversos and Cryto Jews. I'm sure there are more than a few people related to Conversos and as I posted earlier, outside of a very specific Y DNA marker, you can't tell what a person's faith is by a DNA test. Plenty of European Jews have R1a,J and G haplotypes along with a variation of R1b. Thanks for bringing this up as well as the historical details you presented. Bravo.
Robert~
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When I said that some of the founding families of los altos had ancestors that were jewish I was not stating that they continued practicing judaism though I know that one family did and there was a big trial and the record of the trial still exists today.
This notion of looking at one genetic marker does not make sense to me. One of the emails someone sent states that the evidence is not existent. Let me assure everyone that the evidence does exist. Remember that we have 2 parents 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents and the number doubles every generation. By the time you go back over 1000 years you find that we altenos are descendents of moors jews english french italians vikings russians germans africans spanish and many other people. My research includes all my ancestors and digging to find as much as I can about them. The people we descend from did intermarry a tremendous amount over 70 generations but every once in a while married someone outside the family.
Another
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When I first started doing genealogy I bElieveD that true genealogist worked hard at the craft and would only publish after diligent research. I believed that they would tell the whole truth as to what their research uncovered. I was saddened by the realization that many of published genealogies contain half truths that came not from research but conjecture or a. Deliberate attempt to conceAl some data, usually to protect some family members. Protect as in to not hurt. One of the reasons I have noT rushed to publish any of my work because it would contradict the work of some well known genealogists, including cousins and my famous and wonderful uncle who was very detailed in his research but did not want to upset his wife or other family members. Genealogists have quoted my uncles work which is very impressive yet contains a few inaccuracies that protected people. He was a kind man and a wonderful doctor. He was a wonderful husband and father. Yet his genealogy hides fac
ts about
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thank you for your honesty. Like you I have left some of the records for living relatives alone since they would affect them today. Their parents are no longer living but that doesn't give me the right to force the truth of who their father really was down their throats. I wrestled with this before deciding to just leave it alone. I think they know the truth but who am I to say? I have the paper work and maybe one day down the road someone else will put the truth after they have joined the ancestors. I had to make a choice on what I hoped to accomplish with my records and hurting the living was not my choice.
Linda in Marietta
________________________________
From: "mygenes2000@yahoo.com"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 1:34:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos - Are we confusing CryptowithConverso?
When I first started doing genealogy I bElieveD that true genealogist worked hard at the craft and would only publish after
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Hi Linda,
I don't write much on this website because I can't read Spanish or understand the beautiful language. I married into a good
family but never learn the language. But do read some of the posting on this website and there are very interesting. I have
research of many things that what I do. My favorite is my husband ancestry & mine. Today I was reading all the postings today
from everyone that I receive found them very interesting. But yours is true in many families not just Spanish families I find
in my ancestor the same thing. The genealogy is history of our ancestry and what made all us even the bad and good of
our ancestor. I family both side I give them the access to the family tree they don't want to be bother or not interested but
some day they will be. And my work will be there for all too see like yours so we need too keep truth too our heritage through
the generations that have come and gone for future generations. Today world all of our work on ancestor will be the
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I have a comment to make about this post but I will do it on the General list. This Research list is strictly for genealogical research and not general discussions.
Emilie
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:53:10 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos - Are we confusing Crypto withConverso?
>
> When I said that some of the founding families of los altos had ancestors that were jewish I was not stating that they continued practicing judaism though I know that one family did and there was a big trial and the record of the trial still exists today.
> This notion of looking at one genetic marker does not make sense to me. One of the emails someone sent states that the evidence is not existent. Let me assure everyone that the evidence does exist. Remember that we have 2 parents 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents and the number doubles every generation. By the time you go back over 1000 years you find that
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MyGenes2000 (don't know your name):
Your post here is very thoughtful and thorough and you do such a good job of explaining that descendancy in one line is not static as to haplogroup, that some branches off, etc. To say that Altenos cannot possibly have some Jewish blood is to deny the admixtures that had been produced in Europe and brought to the New World due to the mixing of peoples from everywhere in the Roman Empire for centuries.
My husband descends from Altenos from Aguascalientes and Jalisco going back to the 1600s as far as I can track. He is tall, white, a typical tapatio. His great-grandfather was born in Encarnacion de Diaz in 1864, his grandfather was born there too in 1890. They immigrated to El Paso Texas in 1895, and his father was born there in 1909, and my husband was also born in El Paso in 1935. These men, all Altenos, on both paternal and maternal sides, were all circumcized! How about that? According to my husband, it was a family custom!
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I think people need to remember there is no such thing as the "pure race". Thereis no such thing. Though there is "limpieza de sangre" I might be super whitein appearacene but have a mxture of peoples that make my ancestry. I thinklots of people say there are no whites in Mexico and then some say the whiteones are not Mexican at all. Mexico is a diversed country of natives and immigrantsjust like any American country. We are all mixed. About 3/4 of the white population inthe US have some native american or african blood. Which says something, just likein Mexico the whites have at least some native or african blood. Altenos are usually regardedas "the old white aristocracy of Western Mexico" I think thats why most of us dont wantto hear the jewish, black or native blood that one might have. Of course this doesnt mean we are 100% of converso or native blood. I have one black line and two nativeamerican lines, and some jewish lines but mostly european, this shows the diverse bac
kground
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Oigan, creo que son alteños y para nada -altenos.-
¿No creen?
Saludos
Juan Ramón Alvarez
________________________________
From: "actapatio2007@yahoo.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 6:12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
Que bueno primo...muchos saludos! Como la vez, la gente que no saben quien son los Casillas no conocen los origen de los Altenos!
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When did I say we are not mestizos? Again, I don't think you have read my
posts or are confusing me with someone else.
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:09 PM, wrote:
> Bravo Juan !
>
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Let me just start by saying if I offended anyone, it was not my intention.
In my opinion we are all culturally and physically diverse...as is any group or country. When we particiapte in ideas of "purity of blood" or group superiority we are following down the path of some of the most despicable people in history.
Be proud of your ancestors, but not at the expense of others. Don't look at a group of people the way that you would like to see them. We all have ideas of who and what we are, and some don't like that to be challenged, that's fine, but respect everyones beliefs if you want yours to be respected in turn.
As in the case of Spain, it's downfall was that it began to believe mythology as fact, it expelled groups of people it deemed unworthy to call themselves Spaniards when they themselves had more than a little of that "tainted" blood. In the end all that was left was a group of lazy, corrupt hidalgos whose parchments weren't worth a loaf of bread.
I love Spain and am
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That is exactly how my Alteno husband feels.
Emilie
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:52:24 -0800
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Evidence \DNA " truths"
>
> Let me just start by saying if I offended anyone, it was not my intention.
>
> In my opinion we are all culturally and physically diverse...as is any group or country. When we particiapte in ideas of "purity of blood" or group superiority we are following down the path of some of the most despicable people in history.
>
> Be proud of your ancestors, but not at the expense of others. Don't look at a group of people the way that you would like to see them. We all have ideas of who and what we are, and some don't like that to be challenged, that's fine, but respect everyones beliefs if you want yours to be respected in turn.
>
> As in the case of Spain, it's downfall was that it began to believe mythology as fact, it expelled groups of people it deemed
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I agree with Emilie, in addition your comments are out of line and antagonistic. I do not even know who the Casillas are, sorry. We are all here to learn about family history. We're not to accuse fellow researchers of being into fantasies about capirotada and of dallying in fantasies of 'Jewish' victimization as you do in the following comments:
"To
me this fantasy of wanting to be jewish stems from wanting to be
something else, the other, the victim...what an irony since the
families from los Altos came out of the families that were the
aggressors, the victimizer, we are the conquistadores and colonists."
"There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing
mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies
to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish."
Like I said, I don't have a clue who the Casillas are but I can appreciate that you have done some great research and have come to your own truth. I'm here to learn
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Hello Yolanda
I guess I'm tired of the misdirection and misinformation being thrown around about the descendants of los Altos. Especially, the Jewish fad that is going around at this time. If at all, these markers could be mediterranean. The ironic thing is that majority of people who claim Judiac history don't know that much about the origins of that people and their history.
The blanket statement that Altenos, especially in the cases where my family members are being mentioned as being jewish (i dont care if they were buddhist)its quite inflamatory, especially with the lack of evidence both dna and documented such as birth certificates or otherwise. I recieve emails once and while from people who have been misled over and over again into believing that they are jewish. Where are they getting these ideas? They are truly missing out on their real heritage at that point.
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I agree with Emilie, in addition your comments are out of line and antagonistic. I do not even know who the Casillas are, sorry. We are all here to learn about family history. We're not to accuse fellow researchers of being into fantasies about capirotada and of dallying in fantasies of 'Jewish' victimization as you do in the following comments:
"To
me this fantasy of wanting to be jewish stems from wanting to be
something else, the other, the victim...what an irony since the
families from los Altos came out of the families that were the
aggressors, the victimizer, we are the conquistadores and colonists."
"There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing
mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn't studies
to the cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish."
Like I said, I don't have a clue who the Casillas are but I can appreciate that you have done some great research and have come to your own truth. I'm here to learn
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How exactly is the Viceroy and the Casillas related? Whats the common link?I descend from both famiilies.
Thanks,
Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:36:17 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>
> Hello Robert and mr Ruben Casillas (pariente)
>
> I agree 100% I know that Ruben and I have independantly through research and dna testing that the families are Celtic and European, not of jewish ancestory. Both Ruben and I have seen also read Alberto Casillas book on the Casillas, an intensive lineage of the Casillas and the related families. Ruben has also written a book recently.
>
> The families are not jewish, the Catholic religion is based on jewish traditions, this is not the same as being from the Hebrew/Hyskos people who came out of Egypt.
>
> To me this fantasy of wanting to be
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
One My uncles has a circulatory problem that has a much higher incident rate in the jewish population. my in laws are from san miguel el alto and they have a skin disorder by they I mean my mother in law sister in law some of my wifes cousins and her brother get these skin discolorations, small blotches. This is predominantly a jewish genetic disorder. There are other stories in los altos that point to a jewish influence in certain families. The lomeli romo perez and franco.
------Original Message------
From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
Sent: Feb 27, 2010 6:09 PM
Hello R.A. Ricci, my family is from el Valle de Guadalupe. Is this docmented? Neither of my grandfathers r.i.p never said anything about this...please point me in the right direction...
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Sounds like Psoraisis? or Ezcema?
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 02:55:06 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>
> One My uncles has a circulatory problem that has a much higher incident rate in the jewish population. my in laws are from san miguel el alto and they have a skin disorder by they I mean my mother in law sister in law some of my wifes cousins and her brother get these skin discolorations, small blotches. This is predominantly a jewish genetic disorder. There are other stories in los altos that point to a jewish influence in certain families. The lomeli romo perez and franco.
> ------Original Message------
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>
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It's called Fanconi Anemia. here' a link to info about it.
http://www.mazornet.com/genetics/fanconi_anemia.htm
Eric Robledo Edgar
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
wrote:
>
> Sounds like Psoraisis? or Ezcema?
> Regards,Daniel
>
> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
>
>
>
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
>> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 02:55:06 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>>
>> One My uncles has a circulatory problem that has a much higher incident rate in the jewish population. my in laws are from san miguel el alto and they have a skin disorder by they I mean my mother in law sister in law some of my wifes cousins and her brother get these skin discolorations, small blotches. This is predominantly a jewish genetic disorder. There are other stories in los altos that point to a jewish influence in certain families. The lomeli romo
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Que tal primo! Muchas de las tradiciones judias son evoluciones de traditiones del meditereanio o de los orignes de Iraq y Eypto.
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Que tal primo! Muchas de las tradiciones judias son evoluciones de traditiones del meditereanio o de los orignes de Iraq y Eypto.
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If you trace all humanity we all originate in the Middle East and then from Africa.
Regards,Danel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:03:47 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>
> Que tal primo! Muchas de las tradiciones judias son evoluciones de traditiones del meditereanio o de los orignes de Iraq y Eypto.
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The very catholic that you state is a clue to altenos being descendents of conversos. Our families made every attempt to not be looked upon aS falling back. This happened while some jewish traditions were kept but looked upon within the family as family traditions.
As to the french line that we have from the rodriguez de hijar line it is because we descend from Robin (Robert or Robinete) Bracamont and he was french.
I am writing on my blackberry and I do not have my data in front of me so I hope I do not lead you astray.
Robin was married to ines mendoza who was from the hurtado de mendoza family. I have worked on both of the ancestral lines and he is definitely french and her family came from an area of spain that definitely had a strong jewish influence. The names of areas have jewish origin if I remember correctly. I have documented the moorish lines.
I have been sidetracked lately but hopefully will be finished with my present projects in time to finish this article
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Jewish evidence in Los altos de Jalisco