I have found the grant of the dispensation for Nicolas Macias de Esparza and Gertruis Macias de Esparza for 3rd and 4th degree consanguinity, in February 1730, in Aguascalientes (matrimonial investigations, volume for 1730, beginning at image 84).
Nicolas's grandfathers are Thomas Macias and Salbador Ruis de Esparza. I have been unable to trace them further.
Getrudis's grandfathers are Nicolas Macias and Augustin Ruis de Esparza. I have been unable to trace Nicolas further; Augustin Ruis de Esaprza is traced into the Ruis de Esparza family.
From this dispensation I suspect Nicolas Macias and Thomas Macias must be related; but I do not know how.
Salbador must be part of the Ruis de Esparza family, but who are his parents?
Can anyone help?
George Fulton
George and Armando,
Nicolas Macias and Thomas Macias were brothers, were the sons of Thomas Macias Valades and unknown. This relationship is supported by the following document (dispensa) given to Salvador Macias Esparza and Maria Macias Esparza, respectively brother and sister of Nicolas Macias Esparza and Gertrudis Macias Esparza. whose license of February 1730 (image 84) George made mention, and who are my direct ancestors.
[Nicolas Macias y Thomas Macias fueron hermanos,hijos de Thomas Macias Valades y desconocida. Esta informacion fue obtenida de la siguiente dispensa otorgada en Guadalajara a Salvador Macias Esparza y a Maria Macias Esparza, respectivamente hermano y hermana de Nicolas Macias y Gertrudis Macias, a cuya licencia de febrero de 1730 George hizo mencion, y quienes son mis ancestros directos]
Dispensa otorgada por Diócesis de Guadalajara, Matrimonios 1733-34, Imagenes 29-35
From image 30 (Declaracion de Salvador Masias)
"Salvador Masias originario de esta
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Jaime and George,
According to a previous email by George there was a 3rd degree consanguinity
through Luis de Alvarado and Beatriz Lopes de Elisalde. Do you also have
that Jaime?
In the dispensa below of Salvador Macias Esparza and Maria Macias Esparza it
does not state the father of Tomas Masias y Nicolas Masias. From what you
have given us, in image 30, it states that Tomas Masias y Nicolas Masias
were brothers, Tomas had Pedro Masias who was the father of Salvador Macias
and the said Nicolas Masias had Onofre Masias who had Maria Masias. In image
32 the name Tomas is changed to Bernardo. So there we see there was an
error, either in image 30 or 32. Both you and George have him as Tomas so
image 32 where it says Bernardo is probably where the error exists.
Since Salvador de Esparza was the brother of Bernardo de Esparza means
Salvador was the son of Lope Ruiz de Esparza and Francisca de Gabay.
Saludos
Armando
2011/10/20 Jaime R. Alvarado
> George and Armando,
> Nicolas Macias
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Armando,
Yes, Josepha Alvarado (Lopez de Elizalde) and Maria Lopez de Elizalde were sisters, both grandmothers of Nicolas Macias and Gertrudis Macias.
Jaime
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Hola Amigos:
Leo que platican de los Ruíz Esparza, yo estoy ayudando a mi mamá a realizar
su árbol, tenemos relación con los Ruíz de Esparza, les proporciono la
información que tengo y si tienen información que me pueda ayudar a terminar
nuestro árbol les agradezco mucho
Matrimonio de Manuel Ruiz de Esparza con María Romo de Vivar y Peguero
(Rangel) nacida en 1651, Hijo Antonio Ruíz de Esparza y Romo de Vivar nacido
en Aguascalientes en 1675.
Matrimonio de Antonio Ruíz de Esparza y Romo de Vivar con María de la Rosa y
Ortíz
*Primer Matrimonio de Trinidad Ruíz de Esparza y Romo de Vivar* con Luisa
Esparza en 5 junio de 1804, primer matrimonio hijos
Froylán
Ciriaco
José Plácido
José Anacleto Ramón n. 21 julio 1814 Cieneguillas, Aguascalientes
José Sinecio n. 19 junio 1819 Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes
*Primer Matrimonio de Froylán Ruíz de Esparza Esparza* con Anastácia Delgado
Salazar, hijos:
Francisco
Francisca
Luis
María Perfecta
Matrimonio Francisca Ruíz de
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Estimado Julio,
Tenemos que comunicarnos lo mas pronto posible. He estudiado tu genealogia muy bien. La familia Ruiz de la Pena era muy vinculado con mi familia por varias generaciones mediante las familias Gomez de Portugal, Guinchard, Garcia de Rojas, Ruiz de Esparza y Camino-Trasgallo. Si desciendes de los Ruiz de la Pena, eres descendiente del Solar de Camino. Asi es lo siguiente.
Da. Virginia Ruiz de la Pena
Lic. Isaac Ruiz de la Pena, Jefe Politico de Aguascalientes
D. Florencio o Francisco Ruiz de la Pena
D. Agustin Ruiz de la Pena quien caso a Da. Micaela de Camino Trasgallo
D. Micaela era hija de Capt. Joseph de Camino y Trasgallo, Alcalde Mayor de Sierra de Pinos, Sub-Delegado de la Intendencia de Zacatecas. etc, etc.
Estas familias, Gomez de Portugal (Politico y Medicos), Diaz de Leon (Medicos), Flores Alatorre (Abogados), Rincon Gallardo (Comerciantes), Garcia de Rojas (Politicos), Guinchard (Banqueros), Ruiz de Esparza (Politicos) y Camino-Trasgallo
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Estimado Armando,
Interesantemente ya que mencionan que Nicolas Macias Valades y Tomas Macias Valades eran hermanos. Hijos de Tomas Macias Valades. Ahora, no tenia que eran hijos de Tomas Macias Valades, ni supe la identidad de su padre ni que eran hermanos carnales. Ahora, si tenia que Tomas Macias Valades, hijo era hijo de Luisa de Villegas, no tenia su padre, lo que me sugiere que tome este dato de una dispensa. Por mal suerte hace varios meses que empece a segurarme que cada dato de mi archivo y en mi base de datos es probado con un documento y dato.
Esta conclusion sugiere que eran hijos de Tomas Macias Valades y Luisa de Villegas, la hija de Francisco Solano de Villegas y Calderon; Francisca Jimenez Altamirano.
Daniel
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Estimado Daniel,
Has confundido lo que he escrito. En la dispensa no dice quien era el padre
de Nicolás y Tomás Macias, solo que eran hermanos. Es exactamente lo que yo
había dicho y traté de aclarar. Entonces hace falta encontrar algún
documento que menciona a los padres de Nicolás y Tomás.
La dispensa dice "Tomas Masias y Nicolas Masias hermanos, procedierion de
Thomas Masias, Pedro Masias mi padre, y del dicho Nicolas Masias, Onofre
Masias y de este Maria Masias mi pretensa'
La forma que esta escrito la dispensa puede hacer creer a uno que dice otra
cosa pero los que dice en otras palabras es que Tomas Masias y Nicolas
Masias fueron hermanos. Thomas tuvo a Pedro Masias padre de Salvador Masias.
Nicolas tuvo a Onofre Masias quien tuvo a Maria Masias la pretensa de
Salvador Masias.
Yo tengo que el esposo de Luisa de Villegas era Pedro Macias Valadez y no
Tomás. Se me hace que apuntaste mal. No creo que tienes ese error en tu base
de datos.
Saludos
Armando
2011/10/27 Daniel
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Esta bien, mas bien no entendi muy claramente. Sin embargo tenia Luisa de Villegas como madre de Tomas Macias Valades. Ahora si Tomas y Pedro eran hermanos, mi conclusion seria que eran hijos de Pedro Macias Valades y Luisa de Villegas. No tenia Luisa casado con Pedro, ya que estoy seguro una dispensa existio consanguinidad por la linea Villegas o por ahi. Pero tenemos que encontrar mas datos para establecer esto. Cual Pedro tenias casado con Luisa de Villegas? Gracias
Saludos,
Daniel
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Especificamente, en la dispensa otorgada por Diócesis de Guadalajara, Matrimonios 1733-34, Imagenes 29-35
En la declaracion de Salvador Masias, imagen 30
"Salvador Masias originario de esta Villa hijo legitimo de Pedro Masias difunto y Juana de Esparsa...con Maria Macias asimismo española originaria y vecina de esta Villa hija legitima de Onofre Macias y Catalina Ruis de Esparsa ya que nos allamos ligados por ambas partes... T omas Masias y Nicolas Masias hermanos, procedierion de Thomas Masias..."
Como lo habia indicado antes, no se menciona la madre, esposa de dicho Thomas Macias Valades, la que fue una de mis preguntas originales, incluyendo su relacion con Pedro Macias Valades.
Jaime Alvarado
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Jaime,
La dispensa dice "Tomas Masias y Nicolas Masias hermanos, procedierion de
Thomas Masias, Pedro Masias mi padre, y del dicho Nicolas Masias, Onofre
Masias y de este Maria Masias mi pretensa'
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18414-20957-98?cc=1874591&wc…
La forma que esta escrito la dispensa puede hacer creer a uno que dice otra
cosa pero lo que REALMENTE dice en otras palabras es que Tomas Masias y
Nicolas Masias fueron hermanos. Thomas tuvo a Pedro Masias padre de Salvador
Masias. Nicolas tuvo a Onofre Masias quien tuvo a Maria Masias la pretensa
de Salvador Masias.
Saludos
Armando
2011/10/27 Jaime R. Alvarado
> Especificamente, en la dispensa otorgada por Diócesis de Guadalajara,
> Matrimonios 1733-34, Imagenes 29-35
>
>
> En la declaracion de Salvador Masias, imagen 30
> "Salvador Masias originario de esta Villa hijo legitimo de Pedro Masias
> difunto y Juana de Esparsa...con Maria Macias asimismo española originaria y
> vecina de esta Villa hija
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Armando,
Me parece que tienes la razon. Al leer el documento con cuidado me di cuenta de el error que cometi al mal interpretar el orden de las generaciones. Se que Pedro Macias Valades casado con Luisa Villegas tuvo un hijo Nicolas. No he encontrado registro de un hijo Tomas, pero es probable que, como sugirio Daniel, se trate de la misma familia. Creo que necesitamos algun otro documento que soporte esta hipotesis.
Saludos
Jaime Alvarado
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Estimado Daniel,
No tengo nada que prueba de quien fue hijo Pedro Macias Valadez. En el
registro de defunción y entierro de Pedro Macias el 22 de septiembre de 1649
dice que fue marido de Luisa de Villegas. Ellos tuvieron a los siguientes
hijos:
Catarina Macías Valadez y Villegas nacida ca 1615 cc Tomás de Villalobos y
Pérez de Nava
Juana Macías Valadez y Villegas 1617
Beatriz Macías Valadez y Villegas 1619 cc Hernando Martel
Nicolás Macías Valadez y Villegas 1621
Pedro Macías Valadez y Villegas 1625
No tengo a ese Tomás que mencionas como hijo de Pedro y Luisa. ¿Me pasas los
datos de él?
Saludos,
Armando
2011/10/27 Daniel Mendez de Torres
>
> Esta bien, mas bien no entendi muy claramente. Sin embargo tenia Luisa de
> Villegas como madre de Tomas Macias Valades. Ahora si Tomas y Pedro eran
> hermanos, mi conclusion seria que eran hijos de Pedro Macias Valades y Luisa
> de Villegas. No tenia Luisa casado con Pedro, ya que estoy seguro una
> dispensa existio consanguinidad por la
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En la dispensa indica que Tomas y Nicolas son hermanos, hijos de Tomas Macias Valades.
Jaime
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Jaime,
No, no indica que son hijos de Tomas Macias. Con mucho respeto tengo que
decirte que estas equivocado y estas mal interpretando lo que dice en la
dispensa.
Saludos
Armando
On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Jaime R. Alvarado wrote:
> En la dispensa indica que Tomas y Nicolas son hermanos, hijos de Tomas
> Macias Valades.
>
> Jaime
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Hello George,
I don't have a direct answer but we might be able to figure out a few
things. I might be repeating some thing you may already know so I apologize
ahead of time if that is the case. The document states that there were two
impediments. One for a third degree of consanguinity, which means a
grandparent of the groom was the sibling of a grandparent of the bride. The
other impediment was for a fourth degree of consanguinity which means a
greatgrandparent of the groom was a sibling of a greatgrandparent of the
bride. In many cases this is all we are able to find without having
definitive proof of who they were. Sometimes using other records we can
deduce who those ancestors were. Since you have already traced the lineage
of one person we only need to trace the lineages of two more and we will
have the answer for the fourth based on the previous facts. Salvador Ruiz de
Esparza is going to be either a brother or a first cousin of Agustin Ruiz de
Esparza. If Salvador and Agustin
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Armando had asked that I give some more detail ... in doing so, I noticed I completely missed something! (I feel a bit silly missing something so obvious; I was too focused on the Macias and Ruis de Esparza families.) This couple has two descents from Luis de Alvarado and Beatris Lopes de Elizalde, which I think explains the 4th degree consanguinity.
Of the possible Macias or Ruis de Esparza connections, probably Ruis de Esparza is more likely.
The details (references 2, 3, and 4 are related to Maria Getrudis del Carmen's marriage, which is not included in this printout; also, I did not include all the other children of these families as that would make this much too long):
First Generation
1. Maria Gertrudis del Carmen Macias was christened (1) on 29 Sep 1735 in El Sagrario, Aguascalientes, AGS, México.
Second Generation
2. Nicolas Macias de Esparza was born about 1693 in Nueva España (México). He married (5,6) Gertrudis Ephigenia Macias de Esparza on 26 Feb 1730 in El Sagrario
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George,
According to what you have given us the 3rd degree consanguinity exists with
Luis de Alvarado and Beatriz Lopes de Elisalde. Their children María López
de Elizalde and Josepha de Alvarado are the 1st degree. Pedro Macias and
Onofre Macias are the 2nd degree. Nicolás Macias de Esparza and Gertrudis
Efigenia Macias de Esparza are the 3rd degree making them second cousins in
that regard.
Now with what Jaime Alvarado has given us we know that a 3rd degree
consanguinity is on the Macias side and the 4th degree is on the Ruiz de
Esparza side. That dispensa birngs into question the parents of Juana Ruiz
de Esparza which states the mother was Francisca de Esparza and not
Francisca de Vallin. That discrepancy should be investigated. Some records,
even dispensas, have errors at times and it is hard to tell which record has
the error. Even being closer the original date of the parties in question
doesn't always help.
Regards,
Armando
On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:01 AM, wrote:
>
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Jaime and Armando
Thank you very much for all this information; this is quite a lot to sort through!! While this clears up a lot, I need to back and look at all the sources.
The question of Francisca Ballin (or Vallin) does indeed need some thorough review.
Salvador Ruis de Esparza had a daughter Francisca who married Diego Vallin as her second husband. I wonder if the Francisca Ballin that I have as a spouse of Salvador Ruis de Esparza (and mother of Juana Ruis de Esparza) was somehow confused as a daughter; right now I am not sure where the name came from.
I'll check out my sources, and post my findings.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
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George and Jaime,
It does sound like some people were misplaced on your report.
This is what I came up with as for that part of the family. Juana de Esparza
seems to de the daughter of Domingo Iriarte and Francisca Ruiz de Esparza
married 8 March 1649 Aguascalientes. Francisca was baptized 16 February 1625
in Aguascalientes whose parents were Salvador Ruiz de Esparza and María de
Vielma. As stated before Salvador Ruiz de Esparza was the son of Lope Ruiz
de Esparza and Francisca de Gabay.
Let me know if I have an error.
Saludos
Armando
On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 11:04 PM, wrote:
> Jaime and Armando
>
> Thank you very much for all this information; this is quite a lot to sort
> through!! While this clears up a lot, I need to back and look at all the
> sources.
>
> The question of Francisca Ballin (or Vallin) does indeed need some thorough
> review.
>
> Salvador Ruis de Esparza had a daughter Francisca who married Diego Vallin
> as her second husband. I wonder if the Francisca Ballin
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Armando,
I agree with your reconstruction. Not long ago Bill Figueroa, Daniel Mendes del Camino and I attempted to figure out whether Domingo de Iriarte was the father of Juana de Esparza. Since the name of Juana's parents are omitted both in the 'informacion matrimonial' and the marriage record to Pedro Macias Valades (but his were included), as well as the statement in Juana's burial identifying her as daughter of Salvador Ruiz Esparza and Francisca Ballin, I personnally suspected that perhaps Juana was an illegitimate child of Francisca. However, in absence of evidence, I have included her as child of Domingo de Iriarte and Francisca Ruiz de Esparza.
Sincerely
Jaime Alvarado
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Armando and Jaime
Thank you both for all that you have done to attempt to sort out this lineage.
There is both incomplete and conflicting information here.
It "seems" that the information most suspect is the information in Juana de Esparza's burial records. It does name her as the widow of Pedro Macias, but the parents named are not supported by any other information.
I think a possible explanation is that the informant had partial or incomplete knowledge and confused names. Her mother, Francisca Ruis de Esparza apparently had two husbands. We have the two marriage records, but the second marriage, to Diego Vallin, does not call her "viuda," which would be customary. We do not have a death or burial record for Domingo de Yriarte. There are no matrimonial investigations in the Aguascalientes records for her marriages.
If Juana were illegitimate, one of the missing documents would (or should) name her as "hija natural."
So, considering what we do have, and possible interpretations
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George Fulton,
I noticed in the previous discussion of a dispensation you questioned the relation of Francisca Ballin as daughter or wife of Salvador Ruis de Esparsa. In the baptism of the daughter of Salvador and Maria Veilma it mentions the Madrina as Ana Thomasina de Esparsa, sister of widower Salvador de Esparsa. Could it be possible there are two Franciscas, one his deceased wife; and one his daughter?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-52491-98?cc=1410092&…
I also wish to clarify if Lope R. de Esparsa and Francisca Gabay had two sons named Bernardo (Married to Catalina Losano) and Bernabe (married to Ana Ortis)?I located the Baptism for Bernabe and had assumed they were the same.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-51657-98?cc=1410092&…
Thank you for you patience,
Deedra Corona
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Deedra
Of the Macias de Esparza and Ballin documents that we have (especially the dispensation), the evidence supports the fact that Francisca is the daughter of Salvador Ruis de Esparza; we also have documents for her marriages. The death/burial record for Francisca is likely in error, and the information is not supported by other data; it is possible to offer an explanation for what is there.
On the Barnardo/Bernave question, while I have not explored this in great detail, I think the data supports that these are two distinct persons. We have the baptism record for Bernave (but not Bernardo). We have marriage records for both Bernardo (1634) and Bernave (1643, which says he was 24 years old, if I read it correctly; and does not call him "viudo"). This suggests Bernave was born in 1619 (1643 - 24 = 1619) which is consistent with his known baptismal date. If Bernardo and Bernave are the same, Bernardo would be 15 or 16 when he was married in 1634, which I think is quite unlikely
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I also agree with George,
We know for a fact Bernardo was commonly known as Bernardo Salado and Bernabe was Ruiz de Esparza. Both children of Lope Ruiz de Esparza.
Daniel Mendez Camino
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Bernabe Ruiz Esparza was chirstened in Aguascalientes on June 17th 1618
(Al margen) Bernabe +
en 17 de junio de 1618 años bauptize y pusse oleos a Bernabe hijo de Lope Ruíz de Esparza y de Francisca Gabadi fueron Padrinos doña Elvira de Pareds y Ju(an) Bauptista Ponse(?) vencinos desta Villa.
(Rubrica) Lorenzo Rodriguez
Es posible que su hermano Bernardo haya nacido antes de 1616, fecha de los primeros bautizos registrados en Aguascalientes.
Jaime Alvarado
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George,
I found an error in this genealogy based on the dispensa provided to us by
Jaime Alvarado. Juana Ruiz de Esparza married 29 Sep 1678 was not the
daughter of Salbador Ruis de Esparza and Francisca Ballin. She was the
daughter of Francisca de Esparza who was the daughter of Salvador de Esparza
brother of Bernardo de Esparza.
Regards
Armando
On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:01 AM, wrote:
> Armando had asked that I give some more detail ... in doing so, I noticed I
> completely missed something! (I feel a bit silly missing something so
> obvious; I was too focused on the Macias and Ruis de Esparza families.) This
> couple has two descents from Luis de Alvarado and Beatris Lopes de Elizalde,
> which I think explains the 4th degree consanguinity.
>
> Of the possible Macias or Ruis de Esparza connections, probably Ruis de
> Esparza is more likely.
>
> The details (references 2, 3, and 4 are related to Maria Getrudis del
> Carmen's marriage, which is not included in this printout; also
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Nicolas Macias de Esparza and Getrudis Macias de Esparza