Iv'e been trying to read this document for the past 2 hours and only found 10 words with help of my mom.So it would be awesome if some one can please translate this document for.
Document 363 page 322 LA Jabonera Felipe Armas Leonarda Lozano
link:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15697-37801-59?cc=1410092&wc…
TRONCO
Joseph María Pérez Sotelo y María García = They married each other.
Ignacio Pérez........1........Ma. Deseana Pérez = They are their children, so they are brother and sister. Each one married to someone else not shown here.
Ma. Refugio Pérez......2......Ma. Sebastiana Yáñez = Both female, they are cousins and their granddaughters. Each one married to someone else not shown here.
Antonio Armas........3.........Ma. Luisa Durán = They are second cousins and their great-grandchildren. Each one married to someone else not shown here.
Felipe Armas........4.........Leonarda Lozano = They are third cousins, their gg-grandchildren, and they married each other.
Joseph María and María García are the parents of Ignacio, who is the father of Refugio, who is the mother of Antonio, who is the father of Felipe (all the names in the left column)
Joseph María and María García are also the parents of Deseana, who is the mother of Sebastiana, who is the mother of Ma. Luisa, who is the mother
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En la Iglesia Parroquial de Nochistlan a trece de mayo de 1879 yo el Presbítero Don Rafael G Portugal teniente de Cura con licencia parroquial case y vele in fascie Ecletia a Felipe Armas, soltero de 21 años de edad, originario y vecino de la Jabonera, de esta feligresía, hijo legitimo de Antonio Armas finado y de Bernarda Suares que vive, con Leonarda Lozano, célibe, de 20 años de edad, originaria y vecina del mismo punto, hija legitima de ¿¿Pablo?? Lozano y de Luisa Duran que viven. Dispensados por el Ilustrísimo Señor Arzobispo por impedimento de consanguinidad de cuarto grado igual como se ve en el decreto inserto al frente de esta partida, previos los consentimientos necesarios y las diligencias que prescribe el Santo Concilio de Trento, sus amonestaciones leídas inter Misamm solemnia en tres días festivos que lo fueron el 27 de abril, 4 y 11 de mayo, de las que no resultó impedimento alguno aun pasado el término legal, así como el examen en la doctrina cristiana y las
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[Correction of prior posting.]
The brides's father is actually Serbulo Lozano.
The bride and groom are also related: 3rd cousins (4th degree consanguinity). There should be a dispensation with the matrimonial investigation.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
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I had brought up the fact that they are 3rd cousins in one of my earlier
posts. There's no need to search for the dispensation. I have found enough
records to show they are related through Manuel Lozano and María Agustina
de Aguallo
Armando
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 11:48 PM, wrote:
> The groom's father is actually Serbulo Lozano.
>
> The bride and groom are also related: 3rd cousins (4th degree
> consanguinity). There should be a dispensation with the matrimonial
> investigation.
>
> George Fulton
> Pleasanton, CA
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Even having all the information I need, I would ALWAYS search for the dispensation. Sometimes they have some interesting and previously unknown piece of the puzzle ;)
Victoriano Navarro
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Abram Flores
who is manuel lozano and maria agustina de aguallo?
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This would be the corrected transcription based on the input (with some corrections -mainly accents- according to modern Spanish):
En la Iglesia Parroquial de Nochistlan a trece de mayo de 1879 yo el Presbítero Don Rafael G. Portugal teniente de Cura con licencia parroquial casé y velé in fascie Ecletia a Felipe Armas, soltero de 21 años de edad, originario y vecino de la Jabonera, de esta feligresía, hijo legítimo de Antonio Armas finado y de Bernarda Juares que vive, con Leonarda Lozano, célibe, de 20 años de edad, originaria y vecina del mismo punto, hija legítima de Cérbulo Lozano y de Luisa Durán que viven. Dispensados por el Ilustrísimo Señor Arzobispo por impedimento de consanguinidad de cuarto grado igual como se ve en el decreto inserto al frente de esta partida, previos los consentimientos necesarios y las diligencias que prescribe el Santo Concilio de Trento, sus amonestaciones leídas inter Misamm solemnia en tres días festivos que lo fueron el 27 de abril, 4 y 11 de mayo
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Victoriano ... Thank you for this transcription; this is actually very helpful.
Abram ... This document is a challenge to read for a couple of reasons. (1) The image is blurred so enlarging the image is not too helpful, and (2) the handwriting is rather cramped, which makes is hard if you are not too familiar with the church language.
We all had a hard time at first with documetns from the later part of the 1800s; this is not untypical. What is really nice about them, and what makes Victoriano's transcription most helpful, is that the general format of both baptismal and amrriage documents changes very little. They are the same in all the essential points, evenin the 1600s. You will find that many of the older documents have less ornate handwriting, and are easier to read.
To analyze this document...
(1) The beginning is almost always the name of the church, town, and date
(2) The priest's name
(3) The term like case y vele (or sometimes case y no vele)
(4) The groom's name, state
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George,
Thanks for your comments! Indeed most of the records say pretty much the same, just changing names, dates and some details regarding that particular marriage.
Abram: "consanguinidad de cuarto grado igual" means that they share an ancestor (or a couple of them) 4 generations away form each one of them. So they share a gg-grandfather, or a gg-grandmother, or both. Maybe Armando can tell you who are these gg-grandparents and the line that connects them to the bride and groom.
Best regards,
Victoriano Navarro
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Abram Flores
thanks for this info George appreciate it alot.
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Estimados colegas y primos,
Desde un principio me interesó esta discusión sobre la familia Armas, pero ahora que analizo cuidadosamente el acta de Felipe Armas y Leonarda Lozano, puedo establecer que los dos están emparentados conmigo. Yo desciendo de Juan José de Armas y de Rosa María de Aguirre, tronco común de estos Armas aquí en discusión. También conecto con otras familias de Nochistlán, como los Durán, Armas, Aguirre, Yáñez, Juárez, Lozano, Sandoval, etc. contenidas en está genealogía.
Me puse a investigar un poco en FamilySearch y en mis archivos, y establecí que en realidad Felipe Armas y Leonarda Lozano estaban ligados por sangre, pero no por un parentesco de consanguinidad de cuarto grado igual, sino por dos. O sea que eran primos terceros por dos líneas, aunque en la investigación de la información matrimonial solo salió a luz un parentesco. Los troncos comunes de ellos eran: (1) Nicolás de Aguirre y Ma. Felipa Contreras [casados el 20 de mayo de 1744]; y (2) Joseph
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Yo ya había enviado un mensaje corrigiendo mi error de decir que Manuel
Lozano y María Agustina de Aguayo son el tronco común de Felipe Armas y
Leonarda Lozano. Tengo a Manuel Lozano y María Agustina de Aguayo como el
tronco común de Margarito Armas y Macedonia Jauregui Glz. A la vez tengo a
Nicolás de Aguirre y Felipa Contreras como otro tronco común de Felipe
Armas y Leonarda Lozano. Esto es lo que yo tengo después de haber revisado
las imágenes de los registros de matrimonio de las siguientes personas.
Tronco Nicolás de Aguirre and Felipa Contreras
María Rosa de Aguirre....1...Joaquín de Aguirre
Luciano de Armas..........2...María Remigia de Aguirre
Antonio de Armas..........3...Serbulo Lozano
Felipe Armas.................4...Leonarda Lozano
Tronco Manuel Lozano y María Agustina de Aguayo
Jose María Lozano...1...María Calista Lozano
Serbulo Lozano.......2...Jacinta Aguirre
Leonarda Lozano....3....Francisca Glz
Margarito Armas.....4....Macedonia Jauregui
Cuando di el tronco
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Acabo de encontrar otro
Tronco Joaquín de Aguirre y Lorenza Corona
María Remigia de Aguirre...1...Miguel de Aguirre
Serbulo Lozano.................2...Jacinta Aguirre
Leonarda Lozano...............3...Francisca Glz
Margarito Armas...............4...Macedonia Jauregui
Armando
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Abram Flores
can you give me the link to where you got this info please.?
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Abram Flores
sorry to ask but can you please put them like in order like this individuals father is or this individuals husband or wife is name them.
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Hi Abram,
I think that:
TRONCO
Nicolás de Aguirre y Felipa Contreras
Rosa Ma. Aguirre........1.......Joaquín Aguirre
Luciano Armas...........2......Ma. Remigia Aguirre
Antonio Armas........3...........Cérbulo Lozano
Felipe Armas........4..........Leonarda Lozano
Means:
4 Groom: Felipe Armas
3 His father: Antonio Armas
2 His Grandfather: Luciano Armas
1 His G-grandmother: Rosa Ma. Aguirre
His GG-grandparents: Nicolás de Aguirre y Felipa Contreras
4 Bride: Leonarda Lozano
3 Her father: Cérbulo Lozano
2 Her grandmother: Ma. Remigia Aguirre
1 Her G-grandfather: Joaquín Aguirre
Her GG-grandparents: Nicolás de Aguirre y Felipa Contreras
Doing the same for the second chart should give you the other branch with Joseph María Pérez Sotelo y María García as gg-grandparents of bride and groom:
Joseph María Pérez Sotelo y María García
Ignacio Pérez........1........Ma. Deseana Pérez
Ma. Refugio Pérez.....2......Ma. Sebastiana Yáñez
Antonio Armas........3.........Ma. Luisa Durán
Felipe Armas
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Abram Flores
okay so it goes like this right felipe armas marries leonarda lozano antonio armas marrie ma. luisa duran ma. refugio perez married sebastiana yanez ignacio perez married ma. deseana perez joseph maria perez sotelo married maria garcia.and i still didnt get the first tronco
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Nope.
TRONCO
Joseph María Pérez Sotelo y María García = They married
Ignacio Pérez........1........Ma. Deseana Pérez = They are their children, so they are brother and sister.
Ma. Refugio Pérez......2......Ma. Sebastiana Yáñez = Both female, they are cousins and their granddaughters.
Antonio Armas........3.........Ma. Luisa Durán = They are second cousins and their great-grandchildren
Felipe Armas........4.........Leonarda Lozano = They are third cousins, their gg-grandchildren, and they married.
Victoriano Navarro
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Abram Flores
wait so who marry who and and whose the father and the mother of the children.im pretty sure i can figure all of this out my but i have been very busy with school homework and that is the reason why i ask so many questions.So thanks to every one who has helped so far
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Abram,
If you don't have genealogy software, you need to get it because that's the best method of placing every family member in their respective place, otherwise they are just names.
You can download free PAF software from the familysearch website. It will make a big difference in understanding who is married to whom and which generation each person belongs to.
Alicia,
San Jose, Ca
________________________________
From: "aflore2855@gmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 6:50 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
Abram Flores
wait so who marry who and and whose the father and the mother of the children.im pretty sure i can figure all of this out my but i have been very busy with school homework and that is the reason why i ask so many questions.So thanks to every one who has helped so far
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PAF is really easy to use, and I recommend it.
You can also get a program to go with it called PAF Companion, that prints very nice reports and charts (including in color). You have to buy this one, but it is only about $10.00, and well worth the money. The reports it generates are best when you have Microsoft Word, but it works with other word processors as well.
Both of these have been around for a long time, but they both run on Windows Vista without any problems(I would expect they also are ok with Windows 7).
There is a very old Macintosh version, but it may not run on the current Mac operating system. By comparison with the Windows version, it is not very good.
There is other software, as well. Some not expensive (perhaps $40-50); others cost much more. For the price, PAF and PAF Companion are tough to beat!
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
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Abram Flores
well for right now i am using ancestry.com which one is better
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Abram------Be careful with Ancestry.com's system. Make your tree Private as soon as possible, otherwise their trolling robot software (Family Tree) will allow people to pull over information you have put in by putting it on their "shaking leaves". Those shaking leaves are supposed to only be "hints" that other peoples' ancestors might be related, but usually only the name is the same but the location and date are way off. Always check things out first with Family Search.
When you make your tree Private, people will be forced to contact you via the Ancestry system to discuss your information instead of just assuming you are related because of a common name.
I assume you signed up for a subscription to Ancestry.com? And then started a tree there that way?
I think it is better to have a genealogy program like PAF in your computer. They all work the way the Ancestry.com system works, but people can't take your information. Once you have developed a tree on the software in
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Abram Flores
wow thanks for that info.
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By the way, TRONCO means TRUNK, as in a Tree Trunk. It just means they are showing a trunk or a branch of a Family Tree. You may just ignore the word.
Victoriano Navarro
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Abram,
You will find them once you use the procedures we have explained in
previous messages.
Armando
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 9:36 AM, wrote:
> Abram Flores
> sorry to ask but can you please put them like in order like this
> individuals father is or this individuals husband or wife is name them.
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Hello Steven,
First of all I would like to say that I do not speak Spanish, and my Spanish reading skills are very limited to say the least.
By using Webster's 21st Century Spanish/English Dictionary and applying what I call "common sense," I tend to get the basic meaning of the postings written in Spanish.
Steven, your posting was a challenge for me and any corrections in my translation/understand of it will be greatly appreciate.
At first I didn't think this Armas/Lozano discussion applied to my husband (Tino's) ancestry, but as stated in my previous email I later found a common ancestry connection to various individuals being mentioned.
I believe your posting states you are a descendant/desciendo, of Juan Jose de Armas and of Rosa Maria de Aguirre, and that this "trunk," is common to the Armas in discussion.
My husband (Tino) also has a strong connection with ancestors/family from Nochislan, one being Rosa Maria de Aguirre, who is Tino's 3rd GreatGrand
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Hello Steven,
First of all I would like to say that I do not speak Spanish, and my Spanish reading skills are very limited to say the least.
By using Webster's 21st Century Spanish/English Dictionary and applying what I call "common sense," I tend to get the basic meaning of the postings written in Spanish.
Steven, your posting was a challenge for me and any corrections in my translation/understand of it will be greatly appreciate.
At first I didn't think this Armas/Lozano discussion applied to my husband (Tino's) ancestry, but as stated in my previous email I later found a common ancestry connection to various individuals being mentioned.
I believe your posting states you are a descendant/desciendo, of Juan Jose de Armas and of Rosa Maria de Aguirre, and that this "trunk," is common to the Armas in discussion.
My husband (Tino) also has a strong connection with ancestors/family from Nochislan, one being Rosa Maria de Aguirre, who is Tino's 3rd GreatGrand
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Your ancestors
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:11 PM, wrote:
> Abram Flores
> who is manuel lozano and maria agustina de aguallo?
>
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I just realized I gave you the wrong ones. The correct ones that are the
common ancestors of Felipe Armas and Leonarda Lozano are Nicolás de Aguirre
and Felipa Contreras. Manuel Lozano and Maria Agustina de Aguallo would
have caused a need for a dispensa in 4th degree of Margarito Armas Lozano
and Macedonia Jauregui Aguirre.
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:11 PM, wrote:
> Abram Flores
> who is manuel lozano and maria agustina de aguallo?
>
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Abram Flores
i am confused can you clarify the whole common ancestor thing of felipe armas and leonarda lozano please?
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I must admit I got lost in following the exchange between Abram Flores and Ranchos Members.
It wasn't until Armando's correction posting that I realized that Nicolas Yanes de Aguirre and Phelipa/Felipa Maria Gonzalez Contreras are my husband's (Florentino/Tino Corbera) 4th Great Grandparents.
I have the following:
Nicolas and Phelipa parents of 7 children - (1) Juan Francisco Contreras Aguirre (2) Maria Josepha Gonzalez Aguirre (3) Rosa Maria Contreras Aguirre (4) Maria Gertrudis Contreras Aguirre (5) Maria Salome Contreras Aguirre (6) Joseph Joaquin Aguirre and (7) Joseph Leonicio Contreras Aguirre.
Child # (6) Joseph Joaquin Aguirre and child # (7) Joseph Leonicio Contreras Aguirre are Tino's 3rd GGFathers.
Child # (6) descends to Tino's Maternal Great Grandmother Maria Aniseta Losano Aguirre and her second marriage to Jose Victoriano Rodriguez Perez, their son Jose Fernando Aguirre Perez is Tino's maternal Grandfather (Jose Fernando Aguirre Perez
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Isn't that amazing. Abram's persistence has caused two people in the group to look seriously at the genealogical information and now they've found a family connection..........I love it!!
Our ancestors speak to us in whatever form is necessary to get our attention.
Alicia,
San Jose, Ca
________________________________
From: Pat Corbera
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The groom's father
I must admit I got lost in following the exchange between Abram Flores and Ranchos Members.
It wasn't until Armando's correction posting that I realized that Nicolas Yanes de Aguirre and Phelipa/Felipa Maria Gonzalez Contreras are my husband's (Florentino/Tino Corbera) 4th Great Grandparents.
I have the following:
Nicolas and Phelipa parents of 7 children - (1) Juan Francisco Contreras Aguirre (2) Maria Josepha Gonzalez Aguirre (3) Rosa Maria Contreras Aguirre (4) Maria Gertrudis Contreras
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I'd like to mention what actually drew me into taking the time to go back and read the postings with reference to Abram's questions was the patience shown in answering his questions by Rancho members. It brought to mind, the only "dumb" question is the question not asked...
Yep! Tino's Perez ancestors from Nochistlan have truly spoken today...
I keep praying that the Corbera "clan," hears and answers my prayers!
Pat Silva Corbera
Tracy CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alicia Carrillo"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:51:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The groom's father
Isn't that amazing. Abram's persistence has caused two people in the group to look seriously at the genealogical information and now they've found a family connection..........I love it!!
Our ancestors speak to us in whatever form is necessary to get our attention.
Alicia,
San Jose, Ca
________________________________
From: Pat Corbera
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Abram Flores
This is awesome.
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Abram Flores
can you tell me who are these gg-grandparents and the line that connects them to the bride and groom.?please thanks.
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Victoriano, you have the wrong padrinos and testigos. The correct padrinos
and testigos are Labrado Durán y Decideria Yanes testigos Telésforo Durán y
Mauricio Lopes. The mother of Felipe has the surname Juarez in all other
records. The father of Leonarda is Serbulo. I had named all of them in my
earlier post.
Armando
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 11:16 PM, wrote:
> En la Iglesia Parroquial de Nochistlan a trece de mayo de 1879 yo el
> Presbítero Don Rafael G Portugal teniente de Cura con licencia parroquial
> case y vele in fascie Ecletia a Felipe Armas, soltero de 21 años de edad,
> originario y vecino de la Jabonera, de esta feligresía, hijo legitimo de
> Antonio Armas finado y de Bernarda Suares que vive, con Leonarda Lozano,
> célibe, de 20 años de edad, originaria y vecina del mismo punto, hija
> legitima de ¿¿Pablo?? Lozano y de Luisa Duran que viven. Dispensados por el
> Ilustrísimo Señor Arzobispo por impedimento de consanguinidad de cuarto
> grado igual como se ve en el decreto
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Ooops! The record doesn't have a nice resolution, so I was going to the previous one (which also has a dispensation) which is more readable to figure out some of the words (like Ilmo. Señor Arzobispo). I guess in the back and forth I ended up transcribing the Padrinos and Testigos from the following record, My bad!
Victoriano Navarro
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Flores
I am confused so is it juarez or suares and is the father pablo or serbulo?
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The two names are Juarez (you can expect to find also spelled at Juares, and sometimes in very old records as Xuares), and Serbulo. I had not seen this other name before, so the combination of hard-to-read handwriting and an unusual name caused the confusion. In Victoriano's first transcription of the document, he was unsure of the name, which he noted with the question marks.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
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4o grado....