I cant quite figure out what the last name of Cenon's Grandmothers from both sides all i can read is Maria Magdelena.....???and for the other grandmother Ana maria...??? please help.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15092-1073-99?cc=1410092&wc=…
Jose Cenon Munoz Duran is the one being baptized his parents are Jose Antonio Munoz and Rosalia Duran
It's Ysidro Muños and Maria Magdalena Bermejo and Ana Maria Soria.
Alicia,
San Jose, ca
________________________________
From: "aflore2855@gmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2012 7:40 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Need help in reading this document please help.
I cant quite figure out what the last name of Cenon's Grandmothers from both sides all i can read is Maria Magdelena.....???and for the other grandmother Ana maria...??? please help.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15092-1073-99?cc=1410092&wc=…
Jose Cenon Munoz Duran is the one being baptized his parents are Jose Antonio Munoz and Rosalia Duran
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Magdalena uses the compound surname Gonzales Bermejo in the baptism of her
son Joseph Ruphino -
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMPS-VBD
That might help you find more on them. There are several people with the
surname Gonzales Bermejo that show up in Zacatecas in familysearch. There
are two that show up as Gonzales Bermejo in Guadalajaradispensas.com
Armando
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Armando,
Thanks for that tip it really helped alot.I had a question the only info so far iv'e found of Magdalenas was her son Joseph Ruphino i can't really find anything else.I completley dislike how in the earlier baptims records the grandfathers and grandmothers weren't really said only the parents and the padrinos.
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There is nothing that can be done about the grandparents not being named in
records prior to 1800. Sometimes you have to use records of siblings,
descendants, informaciones matrimoniales, and dispensas together to
determine the grandparents. That's the way it is for most of us.
There are more baptisms of the children of Isidro Muñoz and Magdalena
González Bermejo (Ruiz de Esparza). Set the search to any in Mexico
1750-1800 with the father as Isidro Munoz and the mother as Magdalena.
Don't use a surname for Magdalena and you will she was mentioned once as
Maria Magdalena de Esparsa, another time her surname wasn't recorded,
another time the surname was transcribed incorrectly as Bermefo.
I also tried the father without a surname and there are a few baptisms with
Isidro Duran and Magdalena Esparza as the parents. They married 29 Jul 1752
and might be the same as Isidro Munoz and Magdalena Gonzalez. This is a
link to the marriage.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-43110
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Armando and Abram,
I've done some work on the Munos/Gonzalez Bermejo lines and I have Joseph
Munos married to Magdalena Gonzalez Bermejo on January 15, 1755:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-42993-54?cc=1410092&wc…
I believe this is Ysidro and welcome any feedback on this link.
I look forward to your response.
Regards,
Juan Aguayo
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Armando wrote:
> There is nothing that can be done about the grandparents not being named in
> records prior to 1800. Sometimes you have to use records of siblings,
> descendants, informaciones matrimoniales, and dispensas together to
> determine the grandparents. That's the way it is for most of us.
>
> There are more baptisms of the children of Isidro Muñoz and Magdalena
> González Bermejo (Ruiz de Esparza). Set the search to any in Mexico
> 1750-1800 with the father as Isidro Munoz and the mother as Magdalena.
> Don't use a surname for Magdalena and you will she was mentioned once as
>
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Juan, it's a good thing you caught this quickly. I didn't pay close enough
attention that Isidro Duran is Isidro Andrés and Isidro Muñoz is Isidro
Joseph and the marriage you found is for [Isidro] Joseph Muñoz which is who
Abram is looking for.
Saludos
Armando
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:27 AM, Juan Aguayo wrote:
> Armando and Abram,
>
> I've done some work on the Munos/Gonzalez Bermejo lines and I have Joseph
> Munos married to Magdalena Gonzalez Bermejo on January 15, 1755:
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-42993-54?cc=1410092&wc…
>
> I believe this is Ysidro and welcome any feedback on this link.
>
> I look forward to your response.
>
> Regards,
> Juan Aguayo
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Armando wrote:
>
> > There is nothing that can be done about the grandparents not being named
> in
> > records prior to 1800. Sometimes you have to use records of siblings,
> > descendants, informaciones matrimoniales, and dispensas together to
> >
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Abram,
Rosalia Duran has been very illusive for me. I believe she may actually be
Rosalia Aguirre. Does anyone have information that could help solve this
mystery? I have two marriage certificates for Jose Antonio Munoz and Maria
Rosalia Aguirre dated February 9, 1785, one found in Informacion
Matrimonial link of Nochistlan and the other in the Matrimonios link.
I've never been able to find a document containing Maria Rosailia's parents
with the Duran last name. Can anyone shed some light on Maria Rosalia?
As far as Cenon's grandmonthers I read Ana Maria Sorca. As for Maria
Magdalena, Armando is correct. Maria Magdalena does have a compound last
name of Gonzalez Bermejo. Her parents are Joseph Gonzalez Bermejo and
Gertrudis de Chaves.
Armando,
Thanks for the heads up on the dispensas for Gonzalez Bermejo. I'll have to
look into that.
Regards,
Juan Aguayo
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Armando wrote:
> Magdalena uses the compound surname Gonzales Bermejo in the
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Juan,
There is a marriage for Joseph Gonzalez Bermejo and Gertrudis de Chaves but
it is on **15 August 1748 which would have been too late to be Madgalena
parents. However it states that she was a widow of Manuel González Bermejo
which leads me to believe he was the father of Magdalena and not Joseph.
Manuel and Gertrudis had children in San Felipe, Guanajuato which is on the
border of Jalisco. Here is a link to the marriage in case you or Abram want
to see it -
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19052-56576-48?cc=1874591&wc…
you or someone else has the información matrimonial I am interested in
getting that link.
Gertrudis shows to be the daughter of Alejandro de Chávez [Fragoso] and
Paula de Rivas.
There is an old post by Daniel Mendez del Camino that states the following:
"*Ten[g]o una dispensa que menciona a Marcelino Luziano de Villanueva y
Maria Leocadia*
*de Chavez Fragoso en dicha dispensa menciona que es hija de Alejandro de
Chavez Fragoso
y Paula de
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Armando,
Correct me if im wrong Armando.Ysidro Joseph Munos Married Maria Magdalena Bermejo.Maria Magdalenas parents are Joseph Gonzalez-Bermejo and Gertrudis De Chaves.Joseph parents are Diego Gonzalez-Bermejo and Andrea Lopes.Gertrudis parents are Alexandro De Chaves and Puala Rivas??
Abram
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Since Magdalena married in 1755 it is impossible for her to have been born
after the marriage of Joseph González Bermejo and Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso
which took place on **15 August 1748 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco. Therefore it
is my belief there was an error that Joseph was her father and it reality
it was Manuel,the first husband of Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso who was a
cousin of Joseph.
Armando
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:31 PM, wrote:
> Armando,
>
> Correct me if im wrong Armando.Ysidro Joseph Munos Married Maria Magdalena
> Bermejo.Maria Magdalenas parents are Joseph Gonzalez-Bermejo and Gertrudis
> De Chaves.Joseph parents are Diego Gonzalez-Bermejo and Andrea
> Lopes.Gertrudis parents are Alexandro De Chaves and Puala Rivas??
>
>
> Abram
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Armando,
You make a good point. This requires more investigation. I'll let you know
if I find any clues. What I do know is that Maria Gertrudis de Chabes did
marry two cousins, Manuel Gonzalez Bermejo (first husband) and Joseph
Gonzales Bermejo (second husband).
Regards,
Juan
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:21 AM, Armando wrote:
> Since Magdalena married in 1755 it is impossible for her to have been born
> after the marriage of Joseph González Bermejo and Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso
> which took place on **15 August 1748 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco. Therefore it
> is my belief there was an error that Joseph was her father and it reality
> it was Manuel,the first husband of Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso who was a
> cousin of Joseph.
>
> Armando
>
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:31 PM, wrote:
>
> > Armando,
> >
> > Correct me if im wrong Armando.Ysidro Joseph Munos Married Maria
> Magdalena
> > Bermejo.Maria Magdalenas parents are Joseph Gonzalez-Bermejo and
> Gertrudis
> > De Chaves.Joseph parents are
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Armando,
I've done a little more research and in the dispensa for the marriage of
Gertrudis de Chabes Joseph Gonzales Bermejo you will see on the first page
that Maria Gertrudis had two children from her first marriage with Manuel
Gonzales:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18410-36169-93?cc=1874591&wc…
I found the babtismal records for both of these sons in San Felipe,
Guanajuato. The first for Franco. Gil Gonzales babtised on September 10 ,
1735 whose padrinos are listed as Alejandro Chabes and Gertrudis Rivas:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20584-11073-69?cc=1860831…
And the second for Ramon Antto.Gonzales Chabes babtised September 15, 1736
whose padrinos are listed as Antto. Chabes and Paula Ribas:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20584-10879-85?cc=1860831…
So I now believe that Maria Magdalena Gonzales Bermejo is not the daughter
of Gertrudis de Chabes first marriage with Manuel Gonzales Bermejo.
As you
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Give me a few days to read it over.
Saludos
Armando
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 1:42 AM, Juan Aguayo wrote:
> Armando,
>
> I've done a little more research and in the dispensa for the marriage of
> Gertrudis de Chabes Joseph Gonzales Bermejo you will see on the first page
> that Maria Gertrudis had two children from her first marriage with Manuel
> Gonzales:
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18410-36169-93?cc=1874591&wc…
>
> I found the babtismal records for both of these sons in San Felipe,
> Guanajuato. The first for Franco. Gil Gonzales babtised on September 10 ,
> 1735 whose padrinos are listed as Alejandro Chabes and Gertrudis Rivas:
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20584-11073-69?cc=1860831…
>
> And the second for Ramon Antto.Gonzales Chabes babtised September 15, 1736
> whose padrinos are listed as Antto. Chabes and Paula Ribas:
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20584-10879-85?cc=1860831…
>
> So I
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Juan and Abram,
I have finally read the dispensa. It has the following info:
Juan Manuel González Bermejo was buried more than seven years and was
buried in San Felipe, Guanajuato. This would have been in 1741 or 1740.
Joseph González Bermejo admits to having had an illicit relationship with
María Gertrudis de Chávez for seven years and fathering two children with
her.
María Gertrudis de Chávez is stated to be huerfana de madre and even though
her dad is still alive he is so old he cannot work and because of this she
lives with one of her sons; and she is a woman of more than thirty-three
years of age and because of her poverty and family there would not be
anyone of her equal that would want to marry her.
There are two impediments. One for segundo con cuarto grado de
consanguinidad between Joseph González Bermejo and María Gertrudis de
Chávez and a tercero grado de afinidad because Juan Manuel González Bermejo
and Joseph González Bermejo were second cousins.
Because of
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Wow Armando!,
This is great info. I'll look through this information in more detail
Thanks again y Saludos,
Juan Aguayo
On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Armando wrote:
> Juan and Abram,
>
> I have finally read the dispensa. It has the following info:
>
> Juan Manuel González Bermejo was buried more than seven years and was
> buried in San Felipe, Guanajuato. This would have been in 1741 or 1740.
>
> Joseph González Bermejo admits to having had an illicit relationship with
> María Gertrudis de Chávez for seven years and fathering two children with
> her.
>
> María Gertrudis de Chávez is stated to be huerfana de madre and even though
> her dad is still alive he is so old he cannot work and because of this she
> lives with one of her sons; and she is a woman of more than thirty-three
> years of age and because of her poverty and family there would not be
> anyone of her equal that would want to marry her.
>
> There are two impediments. One for segundo con cuarto grado de
>
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Armando,
Omg thank you so much for this info thank you.I problably wouldn't of not gone this far thank you.I had a question on the marriage record of Cristobal Villalobos, i think it mentions his parents and it also mentions that he was a natural from El Reyno De Castilla Spain am i wrong??And i really can't find the name of his wife Maria Perez De Nava?
Abram
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Estimado Armando,
Yo desciendo de esta pareja Alejandro de Chavez Fragoso y Gertrudis de Rivas Lozano y el Juan Manuel Gonzalez Bermejo. Me da gusto que otros comparten mis lineas, muchisimas gracias por sus estudios y busquedas, ya que ni tuve idea que havia registros en San Felipe en el obispado de Michoacan sobre esta familia.
Daniel Mendez de Torres Camino
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Daniel,
Hi Daniel do you happen to have any info on Diego De Chavez Fragoso?
Abram
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Estimado Daniel:
Es un placer haber sido de ayuda. Juan Aguayo también merece de tu gratitud
por haber participado bastante en este estudio.
Saludos
Armando
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Daniel Mendez de Torres Camino <
mendezdetorres@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Estimado Armando,
>
> Yo desciendo de esta pareja Alejandro de Chavez Fragoso y Gertrudis de
> Rivas Lozano y el Juan Manuel Gonzalez Bermejo. Me da gusto que otros
> comparten mis lineas, muchisimas gracias por sus estudios y busquedas, ya
> que ni tuve idea que havia registros en San Felipe en el obispado de
> Michoacan sobre esta familia.
>
> Daniel Mendez de Torres Camino
>
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Armando,
Gracias por su reconocimiento. A sido un placer haber podido participar con
ustedes en este estudio y espero poder hacerlo en el futuro tambien.
Saludos,
Juan Aguayo
2012/4/13 Armando
> Estimado Daniel:
>
> Es un placer haber sido de ayuda. Juan Aguayo también merece de tu gratitud
> por haber participado bastante en este estudio.
>
> Saludos
> Armando
>
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Daniel Mendez de Torres Camino
> mendezdetorres@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Estimado Armando,
> >
> > Yo desciendo de esta pareja Alejandro de Chavez Fragoso y Gertrudis de
> > Rivas Lozano y el Juan Manuel Gonzalez Bermejo. Me da gusto que otros
> > comparten mis lineas, muchisimas gracias por sus estudios y busquedas, ya
> > que ni tuve idea que havia registros en San Felipe en el obispado de
> > Michoacan sobre esta familia.
> >
> > Daniel Mendez de Torres Camino
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email
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