The following is from my father's birth record...
If I understand it correctly, my father is half Native American.
Can someone please translate this and confirm what I think I'm reading?
"Jose Rogaciano del Real hijo natural del comparente y de Maria Dolores Villasenor, de veinticinco anos, que es el primero en su estado, sindo sus progenitores de raza indigeno blanco y mexicanos por nacimient."
The actual document is posted in my folder if looking at the original will help.
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/UncleRelic
Thanks in advance,
Roy
Roy,
As I understand it, it says,
* que es primero en su estado, meaning being the first in his state or condition
* siendo sus progenitores de raza indigena - his progenitors being of an indigenous race
* blanco y mejicanos por nacimiento - white and Mexicans through birth
Alicia,
San Jose, Ca
________________________________
From: "rvr_jr@msn.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 1:13 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help me understand the race notation.
The following is from my father's birth record...
If I understand it correctly, my father is half Native American.
Can someone please translate this and confirm what I think I'm reading?
"Jose Rogaciano del Real hijo natural del comparente y de Maria Dolores Villasenor, de veinticinco anos, que es el primero en su estado, sindo sus progenitores de raza indigeno blanco y mexicanos por nacimient."
The actual document is posted in my folder if looking at the original will help.
http:/
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Thank you Alica,
I guess I should get my DNA tested to termine which line is indigenous.
Roy
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Roy,
I have a Nuestros Ranchos cousin, Juan Aguayo who had his admixture DNA done, you might want to consult with him. I think he used Family Tree DNA when they had the special rate going.
Remember, the scribes are not always correct in what they note on the records, so take this as an initial discovery but keep searching for corroborating facts and data with siblings, aunts, uncles grandparents etc.
Alicia,
San Jose, Ca
________________________________
From: "rvr_jr@msn.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help me understand the
Thank you Alica,
I guess I should get my DNA tested to termine which line is indigenous.
Roy
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Alicia,
I am already looking at FamilyTreeDNA (Y-DNA37+mtDNAPlus).
My father told me on numerous occasions that we had Indian, Spanish, and French blood. He just didn't know the details.
I only recently started tracing my father's line, so I know there's a long road ahead.
Thanks again,
Roy
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Here are a couple of links to help understand haplogroups:
Wikipedia Haplogroup Q1a3a1(Y-DNA
and another here:
www.familytreedna.com
Topete
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It is very doubtful you have French blood. There is a persistent false myth
that French blood exists in high quantities in our area of research (Nueva
Galicia) due to the large number of güeros with blond or red hair and blue
or green eyes and the French intervention in Mexico, as if there weren't
Spaniards that have those characteristics and the people in our area didn't
already look like that. Apart from that there is no proof whatsoever of the
people of the French intervention mixing with the people of Nueva Galicia
and many güeros have documented ancestry going back many centuries before
the French intervention. That isn't to say you don't or can't have French
blood from an immigrant but the likelihood is probably about a 2% chance.
You might be able to save a little by getting the FamilyTreeDNA
(Y-DNA37+mtDNAPlus) through the Mexico DNA group project
http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Mexico-DNA
Saludos,
Armando
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 11:26 PM, wrote:
>
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my Castanon family is from the district of Jerez, Zac and I was also told we had French blood so the elders were a bit put off when I found no French lineage but Mulato, Spanish and Yndio.. they insisted there had never been any black slaves in Jerez.. people don't always like what our research shows them. I felt previleged to share the blood of the history of Mexico but not everyone will feel that way.
On a side not Mande was what was always said to the grandparents.
Linda in B.C.
________________________________
From: Armando
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help me understand the
It is very doubtful you have French blood. There is a persistent false myth
that French blood exists in high quantities in our area of research (Nueva
Galicia) due to the large number of güeros with blond or red hair and blue
or green eyes and the French intervention in Mexico, as if there weren't
Spaniards that have those
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Hello,
That is hilarious. My elders also said we had a french background when my geneology research show that we go back several generations in Tlatenango (to 1600's or before) and sourrounding areas and that our ancesters were mainly Spanish. They were also very upset to find out we had Spanish blood and insited no one was Spanish.
Go figure.
Pauline
-----Original Message-----
>From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
>Sent: Jul 5, 2012 4:01 PM
>To: "research@nuestrosranchos.org"
>Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help me understand the
>
>my Castanon family is from the district of Jerez, Zac and I was also told we had French blood so the elders were a bit put off when I found no French lineage but Mulato, Spanish and Yndio.. they insisted there had never been any black slaves in Jerez.. people don't always like what our research shows them. I felt previleged to share the blood of the history of Mexico but not everyone will feel that way.
>On a side not Mande was what was always said to the
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Armando,
Within the last month, I have discovered more about my father's family than anyone would have guessed. Regretably, he is no longer with us to know of these things.
I went ahead and joined the Felix group and ordered the DNA kit (Y-DNA37+mtDNAPlus).
When the Family Finder goes on sale, I'll will also order that.
Not to offend anyone, but I'm totally indifferent to having any French heritage. Whatever is...is. I've traced my maternal family back to the 1400's in Italy, so it would be great to ultimately find my paternal family in Spain in the same timeframe.
As a new member of NR, I am quite impressed with the level of knowledge, sharing, and committment of yourself and fellow members. Having said that, I would appreciate hearing from anyone with information on a del Real line from Tlaltenanco de Sanchez Roman. My early research has my paternal lineage back to Ignacio del Real, married to Lucia Valenzuela, born around 1825-1830. Parents of Don Bernardo del Real, born
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Let us know your results when they come in. Once you get your Y-DNA
haplogroup you can have a subclade test done which will provide you a less
generalized area and time for what group you belong to. Family Finder might
help you but in a generalized sense.
I've been wanting to create a Genealogy 101 for NR. Something we do when we
first start is fail to realize that the baptisms post 1800 will have the
abuelos a majority of the time. Another thing to take into consideration is
that some people were just as mobile as we are today. Just because your
studies have taken you to Zacatecas doesn't mean it is the only place you
will find what you are looking for. For example Ygnacio Del Real, Lucia
Valenzuela had a child in Jalisco. Abuelos Paternos Don Felis del Real and
Doña Gertrudis Herrera.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18455-32968-35?cc=1874591&wc…
think the name Felis is a mistake and it is really Felipe since there
is
a couple named Felipe del Real and Gertrudis
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Armando and other Nuestros Ranchos Members:
Why do you think so many people perpetuate the myth that they're French or have French lineage? I simply cannot understand the why. I know I've heard it said by some people in our family and when I tell people that I've done some genealogical research, inevitably this comes up and they say that they are descended from the French. I hear it all the time and I've even alienated some people when I give them a few facts as to the short time period in which the French occupied Mexico and that it's simply not possible or very unlikely that they could be French.
The British, French and Spanish arrived in Mexico during the Mexican reform period beginning in October of 1861 because Presidente Juarez had refused to pay Mexico's foreign debts.
The French first occupied Puebla, and were defeated on 5 de Mayo of 1862, hence el Cinco de Mayo. The following May, the French again attacked Puebla, then proceeded to Mexico City where they took over the
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actually I did find 2 marriages in Jerez, Zac for former French soldiers marrying women from Jerez.. So there are 2 families with French blood in Jerez one who did have children there.
Linda in B.C.
________________________________
From: Alicia Carrillo
To: "research@nuestrosranchos.org"
Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
Armando and other Nuestros Ranchos Members:
Why do you think so many people perpetuate the myth that they're French or have French lineage? I simply cannot understand the why. I know I've heard it said by some people in our family and when I tell people that I've done some genealogical research, inevitably this comes up and they say that they are descended from the French. I hear it all the time and I've even alienated some people when I give them a few facts as to the short time period in which the French occupied Mexico and that it's simply not possible or very unlikely that they could be French.
The
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I found one in Jalpa Zac, named Blondell but to date, I have not found any in Nochistlan where a heavy battle was waged in 1864.
________________________________
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: "research@nuestrosranchos.org"
Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
actually I did find 2 marriages in Jerez, Zac for former French soldiers marrying women from Jerez.. So there are 2 families with French blood in Jerez one who did have children there.
Linda in B.C.
________________________________
From: Alicia Carrillo
To: "research@nuestrosranchos.org"
Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
Armando and other Nuestros Ranchos Members:
Why do you think so many people perpetuate the myth that they're French or have French lineage? I simply cannot understand the why. I know I've heard it said by some people in our family and when I tell people that I've done some genealogical research
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What is the surname of these French in Jerez?
Emilie
> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 07:38:31 -0700
> From: longsjourney@yahoo.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
>
> actually I did find 2 marriages in Jerez, Zac for former French soldiers marrying women from Jerez.. So there are 2 families with French blood in Jerez one who did have children there.
> Linda in B.C.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alicia Carrillo
> To: "research@nuestrosranchos.org"
> Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 1:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
>
> Armando and other Nuestros Ranchos Members:
>
> Why do you think so many people perpetuate the myth that they're French or have French lineage? I simply cannot understand the why. I know I've heard it said by some people in our family and when I tell people that I've done some genealogical research, inevitably this comes up and they say that they are descended from the French. I
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marriagedispensation requested 10 June 1871 in Jerez, Zac
Don Cleofas (Nicolas) Roux from Paris, Francia in Mexico 8 years in la Labor 4 years
single age 32
parents: Juan Bautista Roux and Margarita Maxima Tissaran both deceased
with Dona Martina Salinas from Jerez single age 16
parents: Don Franco M. Salinas and Dona Carmen de Avila both living
wit: Don Carmen Cooper from U.S. Married age 55 Doctor
wit: Patricio Orosco from Jerez widower age 32 barber
wit: Luis Barral from France now in Jerez married age 32 comerciante who was in the same batallion, Cazadores de Africa and terminated service at the same time.
passport shows landing in Mazatlan 17 Feb 1866
dispensation of bans
source: Jerez marriage dispensations 1865-1875
.
#2
marriage dispensation requested 11 June 1869 in Jerez, Zac
Don Luis Barral single age 30 from St. Aupre, France
parents: Don Luis Barral and Dona Maria Parent both deceased
with Ma. Del Pilar Torres from Jerez single age 18
parents: Don Sostenes Torres and Dona
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Nuestros Ranchos Members:There were also individuals born in France, but who came to Mexico (sometimes via Spain) before and after the French Intervention. One example is Ángel Navarro, French-born leading Spanish settler in New Spain. My husband also has a gr gr gr gr grandmother (Maria Iturbide) from France who married a Basque man and they imigrated to Guanajuato, Mexico years after the French invasion. Their reason for immigrating was to join family who were already well established in the area. The following article discusses French immigration to Mexico, how many actually came, where they immigrated from, where they immigrated to, and notable Mexicans with French ancestry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_immigration_to_Mexico Here is also a French genealogy blog that discusses French immigration to Mexico (even before the French Intervention): http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogie/2012/01/french-immigrant…
> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 07:38:31 -0700
>
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This group is for serious genealogists actively searching for lineages in
the states of Jalisco, Zacatecas and Aguascalientes.
Also, a lot of people have lost sight of what has caused this discussion to
come about and the reason behind it. There are hundreds, maybe even
thousands, of people with ancestry in Jalisco, Zacatecas and Aguascalientes
that are told they have French ancestry but when their family trees are
seriously researched there isn't a single French ancestor in the past 400
years and wouldn't matter if 10 million French had immigrated to Jalisco,
Zacatecas and Aguascalientes.
Respectfully,
Armando
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Leni Rivera wrote:
>
> Nuestros Ranchos Members:There were also individuals born in France, but
> who came to Mexico (sometimes via Spain) before and after the French
> Intervention. One example is Ángel Navarro, French-born leading Spanish
> settler in New Spain. My husband also has a gr gr gr gr grandmother (Maria
> Iturbide) from France
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?????
> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:50:24 -0500
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
>
> This group is for serious genealogists actively searching for lineages in
> the states of Jalisco, Zacatecas and Aguascalientes.
>
> Also, a lot of people have lost sight of what has caused this discussion to
> come about and the reason behind it. There are hundreds, maybe even
> thousands, of people with ancestry in Jalisco, Zacatecas and Aguascalientes
> that are told they have French ancestry but when their family trees are
> seriously researched there isn't a single French ancestor in the past 400
> years and wouldn't matter if 10 million French had immigrated to Jalisco,
> Zacatecas and Aguascalientes.
>
> Respectfully,
> Armando
>
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Leni Rivera wrote:
>
> >
> > Nuestros Ranchos Members:There were also individuals born in France, but
> > who came to Mexico (sometimes via Spain)
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While it's true what is rare, often is desired, I have come across a couple of incidences where the French could have been involved. Researching the Archivos Historicos Municipal de Aguascalientes, I've come across several entries from 1865 to 1867 as follows: "Orden de pago por el tiempo que fue ocupada por una fuerza francesa la casa/hacienda de..." It wouldn't take long for soldiers to get around. Secondly, there's the Basque that originated from regions of Spain and France, yet often claim autonomy. One of my Basque lines originated in the Aquitaine in France, yet on his 1776 burial entry, it simply claims, "Europeo", not Frances or Espanol. Go figure. Alice
--- On Fri, 7/6/12, Alicia Carrillo wrote:
From: Alicia Carrillo
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
To: "research@nuestrosranchos.org"
Date: Friday, July 6, 2012, 8:41 AM
Armando and other Nuestros Ranchos Members:
Why do you think so many people perpetuate the myth that they're French or have French
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Since we're on the topic of the French and their sometimes exaggerated
influence in Mexico I also want to shed some light on how many believe the
myth that French gave rise to Mariachi music in Mexico. Many mariachi
musicians, to this day, themselves believe that this is true, but it is
not. I’ll first share a little story about my friend Jonathan Clark, a very
well respected mariachi musician and historian.
While in college in the bay area I had the pleasure of working with
Jonathan, a guero from San Jose, Ca. if I remember correctly. Jonathan
started a “guero” Mariachi at San Jose State in the 70s. They played at
many local venues and began to take their playing seriously. Jonathan
organized a trip to Guadalajara to expand their knowledge about mariachi
music and to immerse themselves in the culture of the land of mariachis. He
had always heard of plaza Garibaldi in Mexico City and decided to still
travel there by himself even though he fail to convince his other mariachi
friends
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Thanks Primo,
I truly enjoyed the article. My father was one who loved Mariachi Vargas' sones and to this day whenever I hear a son such as La Culebra or el Gavilancillo I only like it with Mariachi Vargas and it reminds me of my dad.
Alicia
________________________________
From: Juan Aguayo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
Since we're on the topic of the French and their sometimes exaggerated
influence in Mexico I also want to shed some light on how many believe the
myth that French gave rise to Mariachi music in Mexico. Many mariachi
musicians, to this day, themselves believe that this is true, but it is
not. I’ll first share a little story about my friend Jonathan Clark, a very
well respected mariachi musician and historian.
While in college in the bay area I had the pleasure of working with
Jonathan, a guero from San Jose, Ca. if I remember correctly. Jonathan
started a “guero” Mariachi
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Alicia,
I think it is because people in Mexico heard that French had "settled" there, not knowing the true history. They equate blue eyes only with the "recent" foreigners and not their own Spanish ancestors.
My father could have killed me when we stopped for lunch and gas in a small village back in the 1960s on our way to Jerez. I noticed that many of the people there were dark, but had blue eyes. I very impertently asked the dark, blue eyed gas station attendant "porque tantos aqui estan prietos con hojos azules?" (God, what a dumb question, but I was so curious, and young and dumb). He just smiled and said, "los franceses vinieron aqui". My father dressed me up and down for that, but I got an answer that satifsfied me at the time. Now I know better.
Emilie
> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 01:41:32 -0700
> From: alliecar@pacbell.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] French or not?
>
> Armando and other Nuestros Ranchos Members:
>
> Why
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Armando,
Thank you for the links - it led me to my 3rd and 4th Great Grandparents.
I have now identified two lines of Valenzuela females that married del Real males.
A Genealogy tutorial sounds like a great idea. Sign me up!
Regretably, I had no idea I was "perpetuating the myth" of French ancestry. My father was told that as a child and had no reason to disbelieve it.
My DNA results will certainly be shared when received.
Saludos,
Roy
p.s. I am working on my Spanish.
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Armando,
Over the past few years there have been numerous inquiries regarding French relations within Jalisco/Mexico in our genealogy searches. You and several others have often replied that there was little to no influence. I was very interested because some merchants in my family came from Jalisco, and the stories say that in addition to our Spanish ancestry, we also had French ancestry in Mexico. I have have found some French connections in Mexico, but not in Jalisco. When I visited Guadalajara a few years ago, I was surprised to see so many fabric stores and department stores in the downtown area. Surely the Barcelonnettes had a touch in these, but there are few accounts of the French in the Jalisco church records for the 1800's to early 1900's. Many of the Barcelonnettes were known to have returned to their homes in France to retire, but they also married and had children in Mexico.
In my research I have found quite a bit about the Barcelonnette's Mexican connection. They
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Help me understand the race notation.