I can't decode what this document is saying so if anyone one can please help.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15188-252-77?cc=1410092&wc=6…
Marriage of Nicolas Armas & Juana De Lcoalde
December 8 1678
It is from the 1600's and difficult to read, but here is what I got:
It states the three times the plans to marry were announced,and then name Nicolas de Armas.
After Nicolas de Armas, looks like esp (espanol) and then something I have never seen before: mocosoltero. So I googled it and moco soltero pops up in other texts and is an old fashioned way of saying handsome single young man.
Likewise it looks like moca doncella (abr. don_a)is whats written after Juana's name, moca doncella also shows up on a google search and means something like beatiful and young (virgin)girl. Doncella I have seen before, and soltero, but not moca/moco. Learned something new!And it looks like Dona (abbreviated) in front of Juanas name.
Nicolas son of:
Miguel de Armas, deceased and Andrea (?) de Avila, desceased..."dicho ciudad" (of said town/city) The word after the abbreviation of difunto and before "dicho" I cannot read.
Dona Juana is either dau or ward of (?) Leonor de Lesalde espanola and Antonio
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Denise
Thank you so much Denise for helping me understand this document.
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Sanchez-Castellanos
mocosoltero maybe is "mozo soltero", where "mozo" is to call the son that have the same name that the father and "soltero" is sigle.
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I was wondering if it is possible to find my ancestor from working forward to backwards from finding the earliest De Armas individual in Mexico and just going from there and see if it leads to my De Armas ancestor if it is possible can you explain to me how to do it?One more thing so this brick wall im having with Juan Amrosio De Armas I think i found his baptism record but i'm not sure if it's really him how can i verify if it's really him here is the link
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15089-16430-12?cc=1410092&wc…
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It is really fun when you find a match! I get that the father is Nicolas de Armas and the mother is Juana de (cant'read). But what it interesting and exciting is the padrinos are the same ones as for the marriage! Pedro de Ulloa and Josepha de Sepulveda.
Regards
Denise
(ps wish I was having such good luck)
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Denise,
It's really awesome right!?Yes basically the father is Nicolas De Armas and Juana De Lisalde/Carrion/Currion.But i still need to find out if that is really Ambrosio De Armas parents but i have no clue how?Really can i get the link for it?
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Abram
The normal process is to work from the known to the unknown. Going the other way is less productive, in general.
I took a look at the record you cite: if I read it correctly, it is a 1682 baptism of Juan de Armas.
As I recall, your Juan Ambrocio de Armas had at least 6 children, one of whom (Maria Francisca) was baptized 18 Dec 1757, in Nochistlan; there seem not be to baptisms for the others, but they are identified in the marriage records as his children. That would make him 75 years old in 1757. This age would make it pretty unlikely that this Juan and your Juan Ambrocio are the same.
Or said differently, Nicholas de Armas, father of Juan, is not the father of Juan Ambrocio. At best, Nicholas would be a grandfather. Proof is lacking.
If you look at the records of baptisms and marriages for all known descendants of Nicholas de Armas, and some of them show up in the records of your known de Armas ancestors as padrinos, this may imply a relationship. However, by itself
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Hi Abram
I agree with Mr. Fulton about working from the known to the uknown.
You have found Nicolas, Juana and son Juan in the late 1600's. That the Nicolas and Juana named in the marriage entry are the same as the Nicolas and Juana in the baptism entry is something supported by the names of the padrinos.
However, you cannot prove that son Juan is identical to your Juan Ambrosio. I know that brick wall all too well!
The best advice is that given by Mr. Fulton - try to find a matrimonial investigation for Juan Ambrosio or someone in Juan Ambrosios family, which I gather you have a certain link to.
Good Luck! (you'll need it)
Denise
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Denise.
IS there a specific link to this matrimonial investigation and if so may you provide me with it.
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Abram
These are all at the same Family Search location as the baptism, marriage, and death records for Nochistlan. These are the links for the specific films.
1730-32
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15188-27192-28?cc=1410092&wc…
Apparently there is a gap for 1733, but that is possibly too early, as are likely the 1730-32 records.
1734-38
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15191-20514-7?cc=1410092&wc=…
1739-49
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15191-12423-6?cc=1410092&wc=…
1750-59
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc…
There also records for 1677-1707, but there is a large gap as the next group is 1730-32. After 1759, there are some gaps in the 1760s, but they seem to cover all the years after that to 1800. I didn't check dates after that.
These records, at least after the earliest years follow a standard form:
Typically, each investigation begins on a new page. Although this is not
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George,
So for sure this Nicholas De Armas is some how related to my Ambrosio De Armas?I'm taking a pretty good educated guess that this Nicholas De Armas was from Mexticacan then went to Nochistlan. The matrimonial investigation are located in the Guadalajara Dispensas if I'm correct?Ilooked through the Guadalajara Dispensas and found nothing on Ambrosio De Armas.
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This is why trying to work from the unknown to prove a relationship is problematic.
With what we have at the moment, we cannot say that Nicholas de Armas is related to your de Armas family. A similar name in a small town suggests a relationship, but this is a long way from proof.
I did not say that Nicolas de Armas is related. What I said this that his son Juan de Armas is likely not the same person as your Juan Ambrocio de Armas.
I also said that, if related, he (Nicolas) could, at the closest, be a grandfather of Juan Ambrocio. At the moment this is purely hypothetical. Juan, the son of Nicolas de Armas, was born in 1682. Juan Ambrocio de Armas had a daughter baptized in 1757. It is very unlikely that a 75 year old man would father a child, he is too old.
Based on several dates with Juan Ambrocio's family, I would estimate that he was married in the 1740-45 period. It is also possible that he was married in the late 1730s. If you don't find anything in the 1740-45 matrimonial
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Help reading the marriage doc