A question for Rick Ricci ...
In your info on the Villalpandos posted a few days ago, you mentioned that Petronila de Moctezuma is mentioned that court records show that Petronila is named in the litigation over inheritance (the encomienda?), which confirms she is one of the "other five children" (these, I assume being the children vaguely referenced in the Codex Chimalpahin).
Do you have a reference or citation to a specific document, or group of documents? In PARES, perhaps?
I have read the postings here at NR concerning Guillermo Tovar de Teresa's unpublished work that discusses her ancestry, but no documents were identified. It is unclear if his final work will be published.
I have also read numerous posts that identify Martin Navarro, as "Martin Gabai, el Navarro," but I have seen no contemporary documents that name him in this manner.
I have seen only one document that names Martin Navarro and Petronila de Moctezuma. Are there others that have been digitized? This is a marriage dispensation for Bartholome Rodrigues Baxo (or Bajo); this was excerpted in "Genealogia de Nochistlan Antiguio Reino de la Nueva Galicia" and it's location identified by the work of Claudia Reynoso, and others. Please see my NR posting at http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/es/node/20112, and the comments/replies made by other members (such as Armando who provide a transcription at http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/es/node/20566).
If there are other documents that name Petronila, and/or Martin, even if they are not digitized and available on the web, identifying them would be beneficial.
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On another topic ....
At the Denver Public Library's website, there is information on early New Mexico families, including a report on the descendants of Juan de Villalpando and Ursula Olaes. They were from Leon, GTO, as were at least some of the Villalpando's in Aguascalientes.
This report names more than 2500 descendants of Juan and Ursula, but unfortunately there are no references whatsoever, thus diminishing its value.
I have not been able to connect Tomas de Villalpando, and his wife Maria Velez, with Juan de Villalpando of Leon, or with Diego de Villalpando of Aguascalientes.
Tomas and Maria had at least two sons, Tomas (II) and Marcos. Tomas (II) left many descendants in Aguascalientes, but I have yet to identify any descendants of Marcos (but I will admit not having spent much time researching in the Guanajuato church records).
George Fulton
Buenas Noches
le envio un cordial saludo a usted y a todos los miembros de este foro
una pregunta compañeros
alguien a tenido noticias sobre la publicación del libro de don Guillermo tovar de teresa donde menciona los documento en donde habla del linaje de Petronila de Moctezuma asi como su relación con el emperador Moctezuma ll?
yo soy descendiente de martin gabay navarro y de Petronila de Moctezuma y de esta pareja de su hija ana francisca gabay y lope ruiz de esparza por varias líneas de los hijos de esta ultima pareja.
espero y podremos encontrar el eslabón que nos faltan a muchos de nosotros para relacionar a Petronila de Moctezuma con el emperador Moctezuma ll
por su atención muchas gracias a todos
que tengan un excelente noche saludos
estamos en contacto.
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Dear George,
The Vallalpando (Flores Villalpando) branch from Valle de Guadalupe/ Tepatitlan / Ayo el Chico / Arandas leads to ciudad Manuel Doblado, Guanajuato. From there I believe it leads to Tomas son married to a Flores that you posted . I don't recall whether you had them marrying in Aguascalientes or Guanajuato.
The other branch from Valle de Guadalupe / jalostotitlan/ Teocaltiche /Zacatecas was the one you helped me connect to Aguascalientes.
Since both branches left descendants in Valle de Guadalupe where two couples of the same names (Casillas-Villalpando are married in the same year there has been great confusion as which of these two couples are the parents of Francisco Casillas Villalpando. It was only through a document from Claudias dispenses, and real estate records of inheritance that the issue was finally resolved.
I am bringing this same confusion to the "established Romo de Vivar lineage". People that want to stay with the established lines will just ignore
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A few months ago, a nuestroranchos member mentioned that court records show that Petronila is named in the litigation over inheritance, which confirms she is one of the "other five vaguely referenced in the Codex Chimalpahin. I have not seen those records. They spoke of more than one record.
I do not have a reference or citation to a specific document, or group of documents. I was hoping that the person that had stated this information would speak up and identify where we could find this information.
I would like to hear your opinion on Guillermo Tovar de Teresa's statements regarding the Romo de Vivar / Rangel ancestors..
You have seen only one document that names Martin Navarro and Petronila de Moctezuma. I have seen two. Besides the Bartolome Rodriguez Bajo dispensation there is the document that I saw in the west Los Angeles Mormon Library that I can no longer find.
The other documents that name Petronila but the nuestroranchos member did not mention Martin being in those
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Rick
It is very hard to have a meaningful opinion on this ancestry. There are no citations to accessible documents (note that I posted a request for a scan of Diego Romo de Vivar's baptismal record, but I have not had a response) that I have seen. Posted genealogies with their ancestry are undocumented, thus are not much value.
Without evidence to review, any opinion is simply speculation.
George Fulton
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The problem is that most people, over 99 %, just repeat what genealogists have stated over the years. I myself continue to have the traditional dates and people as the parents in my family tree but I do add notes that there are a couple of points that should be addressed before stating that they are 100 per cent confirmed.
First Sr. Teresa de Tovar stated that he had a lot of proof showing a different Rangel tree. The second point is that in the records that show the officials of the inquisition there is a Diego Romo de Vivar from the same time frame as our Diego de Vivar but his parents have different names. Either our Diego Romo de Vivar was not an official of the inquisition as the genealogists have stated or there is an error in the records. If our Diego Romo de Vivar was not a member of the inquisition than Guillermo Teresa de Tovar statements regarding him being deeply involved in the silver mines, and the different Rangel ancestry makes more sense. Since Guillermo
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Mr. Ricci,
Couldn't our Diego Romo de Vivar have also been working for the Inquisition
and been a miner too. why do they have to be different people. where does
it say that the other Diego Romo de Vivar has different parents? is there a
source that we can see.
Danny C. Alonso
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Dear Danny,
Yes, our Diego Romo de Vivar could have been both a member off the inquisition and worked extensively in the mines. But if he was in the inquisition, then he should have been in the book that recorded all the officials of the inquisition in Mexico. If he was an official of the inquisition, and he was the one listed in the records, then he has different parents than the ones that everyone claims. If he was not an official of the inquisition, and he was the Diego Romo de Vivar that worked in the mines then he had a wife that was surnamed Rangel but had different parents then the ones listed. There are two Diego Romo de Vivars with two spouses with the Rangel surname apparently. Since the wives have different parents and the husbands have different parents we must identify them as two separate couples. Then we must identify the correct couple that is the ancestor to our Romo de Vivar line. It seems that either everyone has the wrong husband or the wrong wife listed as
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Dear George,
In my book on my Romo de Vivar family I do provide a citation to the record naming a Diego Romo de Vivar as an official to the inquisition. I would like to clarify Señor Teresa de Tovars claims before I publish this book since I need clarification on the Rangel branch of the family. Also research into Señor Teresa' de Tovars claims will be needed to support my claims since everyone takes the information that is out there for granted. His research should confirm my claims that the two Diego Romo de Vivars are being confused with one another and once this acknowledgement is made than we can look to separate the two individuals and indent iffy the correct one. Sr. Teresa de Tovar himself took for granted Diego Romo de Vivar and only questioned, and identified, different parents for the wife. He never questioned if There was another Diego Romo De Vivar that was our ancestor. But his statements only renewed my confusion over the inquisition records which state different
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Rick
Thanks for all the information! I'm looking forward to when your book is published.
George Fulton
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Dear George,
You asked if anyone had a copy of Diego Romo de vivar's baptismal record. Don't worry about finding that record. Many genealogists have traveled to Toledo to look up this record. They have found a record of a Diego Romo de Vivar with the parents that everyone has. The question is not who his parents are. The question should be "which Diego Romo de Vivar is our ancestor?"
If genealogists knew that our ancestor was named Diego Romo De Vivar and that he was from Rielves, proceeded to go to Rielves to search for a Diego Romo de Vivar born about 1590, and then found a record of one born in 1589 in Rielves they must have jumped for joy as they learned his parents names. The question is did they find the right Diego Romo de Vivar. I have confirmed that the other Diego Romo de Vivar was an official of the inquisition, but they may have overlooked his baptismal record as his record would show his father's name as Perez de Vivar and not Romo. His mother is the one
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Mr. Ricci and others,
last night I looked for information on Diego Romo de Vivar. theres a bunch
of stuff on the internet and in posts of Nuestros Ranchos and some mention
our Diego Romo de Vivar went to Chihuahua places like Rancho Canutilo and
Santa Maria Del Rio Florida and Hidalgo De Parral, if thats true it sounds
like our Diego Romo de Vivar is the one that's the miner also do you know
when our Diego Romo de Vivar was supposed to die? I saw on Nuestros Ranchos
and other places a lot of different dates. Some say he died in 1650 in
Hacienda Canutilo and some say he died in 1649 in Santa Maria Del Rio
Florida. this geni.com tree, which I know usually has errors says he died
in Parral in 1640
http://www.geni.com/people/Diego-Romo-de-Vivar-y-P%C3%A9rez/60000000092…
do you know if our Diego Romo de Vivar was in Chihuahua and which death
date is right?
Danny C. Alonso
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Hi Danny,
Yes, our Diego Romo de Vivar did own property in Chihuahua and travelled extensively to the northern territories of Mexico. Also, he couldn't have died in any of those years since he was still purchasing property in 1658. And, when his wife, María Rangel died in 1659, he was also still alive:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11773-147776-25?cc=1502404…
Here is a record of the death of one of his indigenous servants named Ana in 1662 who is listed as being from Sonora. Her husband is listed as being from Sinaloa. The record is proof of Diego Romo de Vivar's travels to northern Mexico:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11773-145260-58?cc=1502404…
Below that is probably the defuncion for his daughter in law, Luisa de los Ángeles de los Reyes, who was married to his son, also named Diego Romo de Vivar.
Diego Romo de Vivar was getting fairly advanced in age when his wife died
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I reread the section on Diego Romo de Vivar in Retoños de España en La Nueva Galicia 2011 by Mariano González Leal.
Here is some information found in it:
He states that the Romo, Vivar, Rincón, and Agüero are from Toledo.
In 1795 he profoundly studied records found in the Archivo Histórico Nacional de Madrid that relate to those families. Rielves has one of the best conserved records which start in 1573 and in 1574 the records the records show several Romo families enormously extended throughout the jurisdiction and there are various branches of this lineage.
In the Archivo Histórico Nacional de Madrid, ramo Inquisición, legajo 122, número 12 from 1629 there is a limpieza de sangre (proof of noble lineage) for Diego Pérez de Vivar y Romo vecino de la villa de Teguantepeque en esta Nueva España y natural de la villa de México. Padres Diego Pérez de Vivar y María Romo vecinos de Tehuantepec y naturales de Rielves en el Arzobispado de Toledo, a tres leguas de Toledo.....Pedro Romo
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Dear Armando,
I have many questions on both Diego Romo de Vivar and Maria Rangel.
Where is the evidence that our Diego Romo de Vivar is the one that is baptized in 1589?
Why the different ancestries on Maria Rangel?
Why the different dates of death?
If he is an official of the inquisition where is limpieza de Sangre?
How is it that our Diego romo de Vivar is found all over Mexico from Northern Mexico, to Aguacalientes, and to Mexico City without mention of the other Diego Romo de Vivars?
A couple of years ago a professional genealogist in Spain stated that our Diego romo de Vivar descended from a Diego Romo de Vivar married to a Catalina Ponce de Leon. This genealogist even provided their parents. I tossed this information aside but now that you bring it up I believe it is now relevant to our discussion. Now that you connect Catalina Ponce de Leon to our Mexican Inquisitor Diego Romo de Vivar (Diego Perez de Vivar Romo) there is even more reason to dig deeper into these questions
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oops I posted this with no subject so I have to bring it over here.
Armando,
I have sort of the same question of Mr. Ricci, but I noticed on several
peoples different trees they have Diego Perez De Vivar and Catalina Ponce
De Leon as the Grandparents of our Capitan Diego Romo De Vivar like these
peoples
http://gw.geneanet.org/turandot1?lang=en;pz=luis;nz=nunez+gornes;ocz=0;…
http://www.paginasprodigy.com.mx/glezgo/familiago/pafg61.htm#203
Could the people thats mentioned in pares as a person from the inquisicion
be the grandparents of our Capitan Diego Romo De Vivar?
Danny C. Alonso
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No, he is not the grandfather, he is a contemporary of the time frame we have for our ancestor. He is in Mexico. Unless someone can show evidence to the contrary, he is the pacificador de los Indios. He is the Diego Romo de Vivar with a limpieza de Sangre. Placing him as the grandfather is a way of not disrupting the lines that everyone follows.
And yes he could have been involved in the mines, but he is the only one that is an inquisitor, and our ancestor is identified as an inquisitor. The identification of our Diego Romo de Vivar as an inquisitor has to be a mistake if we keep saying that he is the Diego Romo de Vivar born in 1589 in Rielves.
I don't mind if someone proves this wrong, let's see the evidence.
Rick A. Ricci
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Mr. Ricci,
I looked at the information Armando posted and it seems to be proof that
your person and our Diego Romo De Vivar are different people. it doesn't
seem there's really any evidence to suggest he is the same person. the
stuff on the internet and google books show lots of information on our
Diego Romo De Vivar and most of them show him buying property in
Aguascalientes and Chihuahua and pacifying Indians and being at the Mines
in Durango but nothing about the inquisition. Plus your person doesn't seem
to be called Diego Romo de Vivar, he seems to be called Diego Perez de
Vivar according to Pares and this site
http://www.archivesportaleurope.net/ead-display/-/ead/pl/aicode/ES-2807…
Danny C. Alonso
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Dear Rick,
No one has his death record for our Diego Romo de Vivar nor have they reported to have seen it. We only know when he was alive. On 26 Mar 1658 he purchased la hacienda El Rincón so he was definitely alive then. The death record of his wife María Rangel 19 June 1659 does not say she was a viuda so the assumption is that he was still alive then also. The record that Christopher shared with us showed that he had Chichimeca servants from Sonora and Sinaloa in 24 Nov 1662. We still need the record from 1666 that don Mariano González Leal implied existed to determine that he was alive at that time also.
Since our Diego Romo de Vivar was still married to María Rangel in 1659 and their first son Joseph was baptized 30 June 1625 in San Felipe, Gto then we know that they were married the entire time from 1625 to 1659. Therefore, he could not be the Diego Pérez de Vivar that submitted his genealogical information in 1629 since Diego Pérez de Vivar was married to Catalina Ponce de
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Dear Armando,
I agree that Diego Romo de Vivar and Diego Perez de Vivar are not likely the same person if Diego Perez de Vivar is already married to Catalina Ponce. I did not realize that this Diego Perez de Vivar is the same one married to Catalina Ponce, my recollection was that she was from earlier in the 1500s and was married to a Diego Perez de Vivar with different parents. My records don't show him as being married to her.
What I am not sold on is that our Diego Romo de Vivar is the same one as the one born in 1589. The third Diego Romo de Vivar that George Fulton brought up as arriving in Mexico also fits the time frame and arrives with family. I am looking for the evidence that shows that our Diego Romo de Vivar is the one born in 1589, came over to Mexico and was an official of the inquisition. I have not found thAt evidence and wonder why. The claim that he was an official of the inquisition did require a limpieza de Sangre if they followed their rules so your
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Dear Rick,
You continually post about your records but you rarely cite sources, dates, or what information is contained in them. It looks like your information is the same that some other people have that is without primary sources and has the wrong genealogy. Any genealogy that has Catalina Ponce as an ancestor has the wrong genealogy because the only document that mentions her as being part of a Romo family is the one that is for Diego Pérez de Vivar.
George Fulton did not bring up a third Diego Romo de Vivar as arriving in Mexico. That Diego Romo doesn’t use the surname Vivar and he went to Peru. Diego Pérez de Vivar was the one that submitted his genealogy to be an inquisitor. There is only one Diego Romo de Vivar which is the one we descend from. You are confusing very simple facts.
You are the only one that is claiming that our Diego Romo de Vivar was an official of the inquisition. Mariano González de Leal never did and Jaime Holcombe Isunza never did. That’s because it was
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When I looked for Diego Romo de Vivar in PARES some time ago, I did not find anything; so I then looked for Romo. A number of records come up, and I went through the whole list.
There are a few Romo's from Rielves, and I asked, through a posting at NR, if anyone knew if there was a connection between these Romo families and our Romo de Vivar. None of these records were digitized. Daniel offered an opinion that there may be or could be a relationship, but it was only an opinion.
Can anyone cite a primary reference that connects Diego Romo de Vivar in Mexico to Rielves in Castille?
I know that sometimes compound names are not always used in full - I've seen this with the Macias Valades and Ruis de Esparsa. Thus these Romo's may be Romo de Vivar, but that is only speculation at this point.
The Rielves church records are not listed in the Family History Library catalog; it seems that few Spanish church records are available at Family Search. Thus, we must rely on secondary sources.
I
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Danny,
Instead of using the site http://www.archivesportaleurope.net for records from Spain it is best to use the site http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas/servlets/Control_servlet?accion=100 where you can see more information directly from the Spanish portal.
Put the following in:
Buscar: Diego Pérez de Vivar
Fecha desde: 1629
Signatura: INQUISICIÓN,1222,Exp.12
Then click on Buscar at the bottom. Then click Consejo de Inquisición then click Informaciones genealógicas de Diego Pérez de Vivar y de Catalina Ponce de León, su mujer
In this case the only extra information is Informaciones genealógicas de Diego Pérez de Vivar, natural de México, pretendiente a familiar del Tribunal de la Inquisición de la citada ciudad, y de su mujer Catalina Ponce de León, natural de Huehuetlán (México) but other times the extra information will be more and at times you can see digital copies of documents.
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Armando,
Thank you so much. I will only use the Pares site instead, and thank you for explaining all of the information. This clears up a lot. you explained everything that I was confused about and proved once and for all that the two Diego's couldnt be the same people.
Danny C. Alonso
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Armando, I don't think i'm doing the Pares right. I entered the information and clicked the buttons you said but mine doesn't show me the grandparents of Catalina Ponce De Leon like yours does.
Danny C. Alonso
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Danny,
The Pares sites doesn't have the parents and grandparents of Catalina Ponce de León. Mariano González Leal had transcribed the information into his book Retoños de España en La Nueva Galicia. He has a copy of the original document.
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Armando,
Thank you. I thought I was missing something. Did he travel to spain to get those records or are they available somewhere here
Danny C. Alonso
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Danny,
Mariano González Leal traveled to Spain in 1975 to view the records at the Archivo Histórico Nacional de Madrid. I had also mentioned that in the post titled Diego Romo de Vivar in Retoños de España.
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Danny,
The reason those people have Diego Pérez de Vivar and Catalina Ponce de León Fernández de Castañeda as the grandparents of our Capitán Diego Romo de Vivar is because they copied a genealogy that someone confused the limpieza de sangre of 1629 for Diego Pérez de Vivar as being for the grandfather of our Diego Romo de Vivar which is exactly what Rick Ricci seems to be doing. Notice that they don't cite sources for their work either.
Our Diego Romo de Vivar stated on 30 Oct 1620 that he was 33 years old. We know that in those days people couldn't remember their exact age so it shouldn't be taken literally but as a guide to the age within a few years. This would make Diego Pérez de Vivar too young to be the grandfather of our Diego Romo de Vivar since a grandfather of a person that was 42 years old in 1629 would be too old to be an inquisitor or not even alive in most cases.
The limpieza de sangre from 1629 has Diego Pérez de Vivar as being married to Catalina Ponce de León and
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The baptismal record for Joseph Romo de Vivar, in San Felipe (GTO), 30 Jun 1625, is at this address: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20567-22048-90?cc=1860831…
The record is difficult to read, and it is in the volume Family Search labeled as "Bautismos de castas 1600-1672," at image 120, in the church of San Felipe Apostol, San Felipe, Guanajuato. I believe the record reads as follows:
In the margin: Joseph - Espanol
"en veinta del mes de Junio de mil seis cientos y veinte y sinco bautise a Joseph hijo de diego romo de vibar y maria Rengel vecinos de s miguel fue [or fue su?] pedrino pedro Garcia de [illegible]"
There are two other baptisms as part of the same record (the signature follows the third baptism).
The second baptism is "Franco hijo de Franco [surname illegible] y de Juene" in which Diego Romo de Vivar is named as the padrino. The third baptism, Ysabel, seems to have the same parents as Franco (Francisco?), and is
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For the baptism of Joseph Romo de Vivar after San Miguel it should be gr for Grande but for some reason the tail is inverted. San Miguel Allende was called San Miguel El Grande prior to the independence of Mexico.
On the line after San Miguel gr it does say "fue su pedrino Pedro Garcia de" and it looks like Herrera after that.
For the third baptism this is what I think it says:
"el mesmo dia mes y año bauticé a Ysabel hija de
Francisco otomí y Juana, fue su madrina
Mencia naturales de el Miguel Grande"
Since pedrino should be padrino and madrine should be madrina then we can tell the priest uses the letter e where a should be or writes e likes a at times. So Juene is actually Juana.
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Armando
Thank you for help with reading this record.
Since I did the above post, I noted that this film has been extracted, but the folks that did it had trouble with the handwriting as well. "Romo de Vibar" is extracted as "Romo de Ibar" and they also missed Francisco's surname.
George Fulton
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George,
You're welcome. In their defense it does not say "Vibar" it does look more like "Ibar" and if they weren't familiar with this family they had no way to understand what the priest meant to write. He had horrible handwriting and sometimes skipped letters such as one letter for Vibar and San for San Miguel. The other priest has legible handwriting, dots the i, the a and e are easily distinguishable, and he doesn't use mesmo for mismo.
Mesmo was a more ancient way of saying mismo which comes from medipsĭmus from vulgar latin. It's still used in some rural places of Mexico.
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Dear George,
In a previous post you identified another Diego Romo de Vivar in addition to the one we all identify as the progenitor of the Romo de Vivars. You wrote.:
"Diego Romo, natural de Rielves (en la información pone Illán de Vacas), soltero, hijo de Juan Romo y Ana Diaz (de Aguero), al Perú como criado del licenciado Luis Romo. Información y licencia en CONTRATACION, 5234B, N.1, R.30. The reocrd is also dated Dec. 17, 1591."
In http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/17268?page=1
When you add the Diego Romo de Vivar that I found as an official of the inquisition then we have three men named "Diego Romo de Vivar" who are contemporaries.
Diego Romo de Vivar, official de the inquisition in what is now known as Mexico, born in the late 1500's contemporary of the Diego Romo de Vivar born in Rielves (just outside Toledo) in 1589
This Diego Romo de Vivar ( aka Diego Perez de Vivar (III)
Son of. Diego Perez de Vivar (II) and Maria Romo
Diego Perez de Vivar (II) of Diego
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Petronila de Moctezuma