Comentario
No. But I'm planning to research my ancestors from Panuco this month. If I do find any Zaldivars, I'll let you know. Albert Duarte Prieto Santa Maria, California --- Margarita Vallazza <TeaCozyGran@...> wrote: > Do you have any Zaldivars in your Panuco ancestry? > Marge:) > On Nov 7, 2005, at 5:45 PM, Alberto Duarte wrote: > > > > > How do you expect Americans to know the history > of > > another country or group when they know very > little > > about their own history? If you don't believe > me, > > just ask them. > > > > Emile, you are doing way better than me. I can > only > > trace my ancestors back to 1675 in Panuco, > Zacatecas. > > > > Alberto Duarte Prieto > > Santa Maria, California > > > > --- Emilie Garcia <auntyemfaustus@...> > wrote: > > > > > Yes, Arturo, > > > > > > It is so frustrating to know that Anglos here > don't > > > have a clue about our history. They are > amazed when > > > I request records for 1640, or mention that I > just > > > downloaded a census for 1650, for example. > They say > > > "They have records in Mexico that go back that > > > far?--Who wrote them?" (they have no clue as > to how > > > literate and educated the priests and notaries > > > public were). I tell them that I can trace > some > > > ancestors to 1543 (in Panuco, Zacatecas). I > just > > > can't trace all the lines back that far and > there > > > are such huge gaps sometimes due to the > upheavals > > > caused in the founding of a nation and opening > up of > > > frontiers and the passage of time. I tell > them that > > > Jerez where my father was born is on the > National > > > Register of Historical Places in Mexico as a > > > well-preserved Spanish Colonial city founded in > the > > > early 1500s. They think their 1620 > settlements in > > > Massachusetts are the oldest in the Americas. I > > > don't even think they realize how far back our > > > pre-Colombian history goes, how complex and > advanced > > > the civilization was for the time. My sister > (born > > > in Colorado as I was) once was told by her boss > at > > > work, "Well, Alicia, now that you have adopted > this > > > country as your own----". My sister, aware of > our > > > mother's heritage in New Mexico since the > 1500's, > > > blew up at him and told him, "My people had > been > > > here for hundreds of years when your people > were > > > still back in Ireland digging up potatoes!" I > just > > > cannot fathom the arrogance and pride of such > > > ignoramuses. They think their ancestors were > the > > > only explorers and settlers, etc. > > > > > > The folks at the local FHC seem interested when > I > > > tell them what I find, such as whole families > at > > > haciendas wiped out at once by the Indians > (they > > > think such things only happened in their Old > West), > > > or that a church bell was dedicated in the > 1600's > > > but had been manufactured in Spain in the > 1500's, > > > etc. My husband was amazed when I told him > that I > > > found a record for a 9 year old Indian boy > whose > > > god-parents had "bought" him. I also find > that some > > > men used their mother's surname and never their > > > father's (making it such fun to trace), yet > both > > > parents are listed on the baptismal record, and > of > > > course the Indians were given only first names > as > > > were the Negro slaves in the American South. > > > > > > Emilie Garcia > > > Port Orchard, WA ---- > > >  ----- Original Message ----- > > >  From: Arturo > > > Ramos<mailto:arturo.ramos2@...> > > >  To: > > > > > > ranchos@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > >  Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:10 PM > > >  Subject: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos > > > Legitimos > > > > > > > > >  You know that's right Elvira. I talk to > the > > > Nordic people at my > > >  family history center and they cannot > believe that > > > there are even > > >  records for Mexico in the 1700s let alone > records > > > that list maternal > > >  and paternal names up to the > grandparents... along > > > with race/caste, > > >  etc. As wrong as the motives may have > been for > > > maintaining all of > > >  this information... knowledge=control and > the > > > maintainance of > > >  information like this was obviously meant > to > > > categorize and keep > > >  people in their place. Nevertheless this > > > information gives us a > > >  beautiful window into the lives of our > ancestors. > > > > > >  Emilie: Neither my father nor I have been > able to > > > locate my > > >  grandfather's birth certificate... either > at the > > > civil registry in > > >  the town where he was born nor in > Gudadalajara. I > > > think there were a > > >  lot of records lost just before the > revolution. > > > The government in > > >  Mexico was very weak and then a lot of > records > > > were destroyed. We > > >  are lucky we have been able to find his > baptismal > > > records. > > > > > >  I have a similar issue in my father's > lineage much > > > further back. I > > >  have a gggg grandfather who was an > "expuesto" and > > > whose background I > > >  cannot confirm. Even if his adoptive > father is > > > his illegitimate > > >  father, two generations futher back there > is an > > > illegimate child's > > >  birth whose baptismal records do not appear > in > > > Mazapil, where he > > >  claims to have been born. Somewhat > frustrating. > > > > > >  There is a book by Thomas Calvo called la > Nueva > > > Galicia en los siglos > > >  XVI y XVII. It is a pretty rigorous > ethnologic > > > study based on census > > >  and baptismal registry data that shows that > nearly > > > 40% of children > > >  born in Nueva Galicia at the end of the XVI > > > century were illegitimate > > >  and that family name transmittal was not > very > > > common in the area at > === message truncated === __________________________________ Yahoo! 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Do you have any Zaldivars in your Panuco ancestry? Marge:)
On Nov 7, 2005, at 5:45 PM, Alberto Duarte wrote:
On Nov 7, 2005, at 5:45 PM, Alberto Duarte wrote:
How do you expect Americans to know the history of
another country or group when they know very little
about their own history? If you don't believe me,
just ask them.
Emile, you are doing way better than me. I can only
trace my ancestors back to 1675 in Panuco, Zacatecas.
Alberto Duarte Prieto
Santa Maria, California
--- Emilie Garcia <auntyemfaustus@...> wrote:
> Yes, Arturo,
>
> It is so frustrating to know that Anglos here don't
> have a clue about our history. They are amazed when
> I request records for 1640, or mention that I just
> downloaded a census for 1650, for example. They say
> "They have records in Mexico that go back that
> far?--Who wrote them?" (they have no clue as to how
> literate and educated the priests and notaries
> public were). I tell them that I can trace some
> ancestors to 1543 (in Panuco, Zacatecas). I just
> can't trace all the lines back that far and there
> are such huge gaps sometimes due to the upheavals
> caused in the founding of a nation and opening up of
> frontiers and the passage of time. I tell them that
> Jerez where my father was born is on the National
> Register of Historical Places in Mexico as a
> well-preserved Spanish Colonial city founded in the
> early 1500s. They think their 1620 settlements in
> Massachusetts are the oldest in the Americas. I
> don't even think they realize how far back our
> pre-Colombian history goes, how complex and advanced
> the civilization was for the time. My sister (born
> in Colorado as I was) once was told by her boss at
> work, "Well, Alicia, now that you have adopted this
> country as your own----". My sister, aware of our
> mother's heritage in New Mexico since the 1500's,
> blew up at him and told him, "My people had been
> here for hundreds of years when your people were
> still back in Ireland digging up potatoes!" I just
> cannot fathom the arrogance and pride of such
> ignoramuses. They think their ancestors were the
> only explorers and settlers, etc.
>
> The folks at the local FHC seem interested when I
> tell them what I find, such as whole families at
> haciendas wiped out at once by the Indians (they
> think such things only happened in their Old West),
> or that a church bell was dedicated in the 1600's
> but had been manufactured in Spain in the 1500's,
> etc. My husband was amazed when I told him that I
> found a record for a 9 year old Indian boy whose
> god-parents had "bought" him. I also find that some
> men used their mother's surname and never their
> father's (making it such fun to trace), yet both
> parents are listed on the baptismal record, and of
> course the Indians were given only first names as
> were the Negro slaves in the American South.
>
> Emilie Garcia
> Port Orchard, WA ----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Arturo
> Ramos<mailto:arturo.ramos2@...>
> To:
>
ranchos@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:10 PM
> Subject: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos
> Legitimos
>
>
> You know that's right Elvira. I talk to the
> Nordic people at my
> family history center and they cannot believe that
> there are even
> records for Mexico in the 1700s let alone records
> that list maternal
> and paternal names up to the grandparents... along
> with race/caste,
> etc. As wrong as the motives may have been for
> maintaining all of
> this information... knowledge=control and the
> maintainance of
> information like this was obviously meant to
> categorize and keep
> people in their place. Nevertheless this
> information gives us a
> beautiful window into the lives of our ancestors.
>
> Emilie: Neither my father nor I have been able to
> locate my
> grandfather's birth certificate... either at the
> civil registry in
> the town where he was born nor in Gudadalajara. I
> think there were a
> lot of records lost just before the revolution.
> The government in
> Mexico was very weak and then a lot of records
> were destroyed. We
> are lucky we have been able to find his baptismal
> records.
>
> I have a similar issue in my father's lineage much
> further back. I
> have a gggg grandfather who was an "expuesto" and
> whose background I
> cannot confirm. Even if his adoptive father is
> his illegitimate
> father, two generations futher back there is an
> illegimate child's
> birth whose baptismal records do not appear in
> Mazapil, where he
> claims to have been born. Somewhat frustrating.
>
> There is a book by Thomas Calvo called la Nueva
> Galicia en los siglos
> XVI y XVII. It is a pretty rigorous ethnologic
> study based on census
> and baptismal registry data that shows that nearly
> 40% of children
> born in Nueva Galicia at the end of the XVI
> century were illegitimate
> and that family name transmittal was not very
> common in the area at
> the time. I think all of this is indicative of
> our families being in
> such a challenging frontier that was suffering a
> massive demographic
> collapse. Families were being torn apart and
> survival often required
> people being transient and adaptive.
>
> Have people gotten to this point in time where
> their genealogies are
> still in the Ranchos area of Nueva Galicia? I
> have definitely seen
> more and more illegitimate births as I have gotten
> closer to this
> time period.
>
>
>
> --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "elviraz"
> <elviraz@e...> wrote:
> >
> > Victor,
> >
> > Yes, you got it right. The state has always made
> a second copy of
> the records. The originals (when the book closes)
> get sent to the
> state capital and the second copy is supposed to
> stay in the
> municipio it came from.
> >
> > The registro civil in Zacatecas City should
> have the copy of the
> tome in question (let's hope that it survived la
> Toma de Zactecas).
> I had this problem with records from Durango. The
> documents were
> found in the registro civil in the city of
> Durango.
> >
> > Like someone said before ' thank God the Spanish
> were compulsive
> record keepers". They taught the Mexicans well!
> >
> > Elvira
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: v.h.villarreal
> > To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 8:36 PM
> > Subject: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos
> Legitimos
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure if it has always been the same
> but I understand that
> > civil registry records are always made in
> duplicate; one for the
> local
> > office and a copy for the State archives of
> the civil registry.
> So
> > even if the local copy was burnt there's a
> chance that the State's
> > copy survived. As I said, that is how it is
> done today but I'm
> not
> > sure if the same rule applied back in 1903.
> >
> > The other question is where were the
> microfilms made, at the local
> > office or at the state office?
> >
> > Victor
> >
> > --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie
> Garcia"
> <auntyemfaustus@h...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Victor, I was just going over the civil
> registry records I have
> > checked and I haven't found any trace of my
> father, aunt or
> > grandmother, nor of a marriage record for my
> grandfather Francisco
> > Olague and grandmother Gorgonia Garcia. I
> checked
=== message truncated ===
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Arturo, Yes, I know how clueless Anglos are about a lot of things. Have you watched Jay Leno when he goes out with a microphone to college campuses and asks them what they know about something simple that you would think they would know or shows them a picture of someone in the news and they don't know what he is talking about? It is scary. Jay does that, I think, to demonstrate the sad level of education of all our young people today. We are slouching towards Gomorrah. And no, I think you are doing better than me if you have an unbroken line of documentation that far back. I was told that all people surnamed Olague with a long history in Zacatecas are descendants of Miguel Olague who was with Onate when when he went to Nuevo Mexico in 1598. That is my father's surname. Someone in Mexico told my sister about Miguel Olague. Then when I went to the New Mexico State archives I was told that all Marquez (my mother's surname) with a long history there descend from a Geronimo Marquez who also was with Onate. The Olagues, I was told, abandoned Onate and fled back to Zacatecas, but the Marquezes stayed and settled in New Mexico then had to go to El Paso del Norte when the Indians revolted in the north. What I cannot do yet, and maybe never will, is find an unbroken line of documentation to know exactly how I descend from them. I have so many documentation gaps, one even between my grandfather and me, since I cannot find documentation of my father's birth in Jerez. I have a book called "Origins of New Mexico Families" written by Fray Anelico Chavez, and all the surnames in my mother's lines are listed down to the late 1600s. I have that 20 year gap (one or two generations) there from the late 1600's to the early 1700's. I have documentation only back to the early 1700's in both my mother's and father's lines. In New Mexico and El Paso del Norte, many records have been lost. Maybe what I should do is work down from Geronimo Marquez, and Miguel Olague and see if I can finally fill in the gaps that way, but I also need to find someone who has already traced them down to at least the early 1700's so I can compare lines. I wish I could find published genealogies of Miguel Olague and Geronimo Marquez that would take me back to Spain. The book by Fray Angelico Chavez only starts with the conquest of New Mexico and takes me down to about 1693 so I have a gap there to the early 1700's. I did find a muster list in Gary Felix' website that lists Miguel Olague and his brothers with Onate, and someone at the New Mexico Archives let me copy many pages from a book called "Onate, Colonizer of New Mexico" by George P. Hammond and Agapito Rey that gives many accounts of the Olagues during their brief stay there, and also tells what Geronimo Marquez did then. The father of Miguel and his two brothers was also named Miguel and he settled in Panuco, Zacatecas around 1543. Emilie Garcia Port Orchard, WA ----
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How do you expect Americans to know the history of another country or group when they know very little about their own history? If you don't believe me, just ask them. Emile, you are doing way better than me. I can only trace my ancestors back to 1675 in Panuco, Zacatecas. Alberto Duarte Prieto Santa Maria, California --- Emilie Garcia <auntyemfaustus@...> wrote: > Yes, Arturo, > > It is so frustrating to know that Anglos here don't > have a clue about our history. They are amazed when > I request records for 1640, or mention that I just > downloaded a census for 1650, for example. They say > "They have records in Mexico that go back that > far?--Who wrote them?" (they have no clue as to how > literate and educated the priests and notaries > public were). I tell them that I can trace some > ancestors to 1543 (in Panuco, Zacatecas). I just > can't trace all the lines back that far and there > are such huge gaps sometimes due to the upheavals > caused in the founding of a nation and opening up of > frontiers and the passage of time. I tell them that > Jerez where my father was born is on the National > Register of Historical Places in Mexico as a > well-preserved Spanish Colonial city founded in the > early 1500s. They think their 1620 settlements in > Massachusetts are the oldest in the Americas. I > don't even think they realize how far back our > pre-Colombian history goes, how complex and advanced > the civilization was for the time. My sister (born > in Colorado as I was) once was told by her boss at > work, "Well, Alicia, now that you have adopted this > country as your own----". My sister, aware of our > mother's heritage in New Mexico since the 1500's, > blew up at him and told him, "My people had been > here for hundreds of years when your people were > still back in Ireland digging up potatoes!" I just > cannot fathom the arrogance and pride of such > ignoramuses. They think their ancestors were the > only explorers and settlers, etc. > > The folks at the local FHC seem interested when I > tell them what I find, such as whole families at > haciendas wiped out at once by the Indians (they > think such things only happened in their Old West), > or that a church bell was dedicated in the 1600's > but had been manufactured in Spain in the 1500's, > etc. My husband was amazed when I told him that I > found a record for a 9 year old Indian boy whose > god-parents had "bought" him. I also find that some > men used their mother's surname and never their > father's (making it such fun to trace), yet both > parents are listed on the baptismal record, and of > course the Indians were given only first names as > were the Negro slaves in the American South. > > Emilie Garcia > Port Orchard, WA ---- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Arturo > Ramos<mailto:arturo.ramos2@...> > To: > ranchos@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:10 PM > Subject: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos > Legitimos > > > You know that's right Elvira. I talk to the > Nordic people at my > family history center and they cannot believe that > there are even > records for Mexico in the 1700s let alone records > that list maternal > and paternal names up to the grandparents... along > with race/caste, > etc. As wrong as the motives may have been for > maintaining all of > this information... knowledge=control and the > maintainance of > information like this was obviously meant to > categorize and keep > people in their place. Nevertheless this > information gives us a > beautiful window into the lives of our ancestors. > > Emilie: Neither my father nor I have been able to > locate my > grandfather's birth certificate... either at the > civil registry in > the town where he was born nor in Gudadalajara. I > think there were a > lot of records lost just before the revolution. > The government in > Mexico was very weak and then a lot of records > were destroyed. We > are lucky we have been able to find his baptismal > records. > > I have a similar issue in my father's lineage much > further back. I > have a gggg grandfather who was an "expuesto" and > whose background I > cannot confirm. Even if his adoptive father is > his illegitimate > father, two generations futher back there is an > illegimate child's > birth whose baptismal records do not appear in > Mazapil, where he > claims to have been born. Somewhat frustrating. > > There is a book by Thomas Calvo called la Nueva > Galicia en los siglos > XVI y XVII. It is a pretty rigorous ethnologic > study based on census > and baptismal registry data that shows that nearly > 40% of children > born in Nueva Galicia at the end of the XVI > century were illegitimate > and that family name transmittal was not very > common in the area at > the time. I think all of this is indicative of > our families being in > such a challenging frontier that was suffering a > massive demographic > collapse. Families were being torn apart and > survival often required > people being transient and adaptive. > > Have people gotten to this point in time where > their genealogies are > still in the Ranchos area of Nueva Galicia? I > have definitely seen > more and more illegitimate births as I have gotten > closer to this > time period. > > > > --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "elviraz" > <elviraz@e...> wrote: > > > > Victor, > > > > Yes, you got it right. The state has always made > a second copy of > the records. The originals (when the book closes) > get sent to the > state capital and the second copy is supposed to > stay in the > municipio it came from. > > > > The registro civil in Zacatecas City should > have the copy of the > tome in question (let's hope that it survived la > Toma de Zactecas). > I had this problem with records from Durango. The > documents were > found in the registro civil in the city of > Durango. > > > > Like someone said before ' thank God the Spanish > were compulsive > record keepers". They taught the Mexicans well! > > > > Elvira > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: v.h.villarreal > > To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 8:36 PM > > Subject: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos > Legitimos > > > > > > I'm not sure if it has always been the same > but I understand that > > civil registry records are always made in > duplicate; one for the > local > > office and a copy for the State archives of > the civil registry. > So > > even if the local copy was burnt there's a > chance that the State's > > copy survived. As I said, that is how it is > done today but I'm > not > > sure if the same rule applied back in 1903. > > > > The other question is where were the > microfilms made, at the local > > office or at the state office? > > > > Victor > > > > --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie > Garcia" > <auntyemfaustus@h...> > > wrote: > > > > > > Victor, I was just going over the civil > registry records I have > > checked and I haven't found any trace of my > father, aunt or > > grandmother, nor of a marriage record for my > grandfather Francisco > > Olague and grandmother Gorgonia Garcia. I > checked === message truncated === __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
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Great Stories Elvira. . .i didn't know about the "No Pago" records but
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Arturo, Emilie, See my comments below. Elvira ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: "Arturo Ramos" < href="mailto:arturo.ramos2@...">arturo.ramos2@...> To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 06:10:58 -0000 > You know that's right Elvira. I talk to the Nordic people > at my family history center and they cannot believe that > there are even records for Mexico in the 1700s let alone > records that list maternal and paternal names up to the > grandparents... along with race/caste, etc. As wrong as > the motives may have been for maintaining all of this > information... knowledge=control and the maintainance of > information like this was obviously meant to categorize > and keep people in their place. Nevertheless this > information gives us a beautiful window into the lives > of our ancestors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- used to work in a place where it was common to have to delve into people's genealogy. Some of my co-workers used to tell people that usually Spanish names had no meaning, that they were just noises to distinguish one from the other, that Latins in general (meaning Indians) never had family trees nor did they care about who their ancestors were. I wonder what he would tell the people whose last name is Moctezuma! One day I argued the point with some of them and told them that I knew that our record keeping was better than the English (of which I know something about) and the response was that Mexicans and Latins had no culture or history! Mind you, these were peole with advanced degrees! > Emilie: Neither my father nor I have been able to locate > my grandfather's birth certificate... either at the > civil registry in the town where he was born nor in > Gudadalajara. I think there were a lot of records lost > just before the revolution. The government in Mexico was > very weak and then a lot of records were destroyed. We > are lucky we have been able to find his baptismal > records. --------------------------------------------I went to Coahuila, Durango and a couple of communities on the northern border of Zacatecas and found the following situation regarding records: I had a been looking for one of my grandgathers B.C. for over 20 yeras (in fact, he had looked for it himself every time one of his children got married) but it was never found, not even in the capital. I finally decided to go to the registro civil in the municipio and look for it myself because Grandpa had assured me he had been registered. As it turns out, the registro civil used to keep a box with pieces of the documents that had been torn or detached from the books. No one had ever looked in this box. I looked and found not only the copy but also the original page was supposed to be sent to the registro civil in the capital. The book had never been sent and through usage had been torn, its pages detached from the original empastado. What the official did was remove the pages and throw them into this box insted of keeping them in the book, consequently, nobody could find them. I just got nosy and went looking and got lucky! Another situation I ran into was this: In a town close to the border with Zacatecas, I went with a friend who was looking for a birth certificate from the 1930s. We found the RC and proceeded to look and nothing was found. Along comes the old encargado del registro (a gentleman in his 80+) and out of curiosity asked us what we were looking for. After giving him the information on he person we were looking for he said something very interesting; look in the "no pagados". It turns out that in some places the official will make the record (i don't know if it is a personal choice or what) but will not put it in the book if the registration was not paid for. In some localities the registros were done on papel sellado which were loose sheets of official paper that were later bound in a book. Anyway, the record we were looking for was there marked "no pago" but had never been included in the oficial records. We paid and were told that the acta would be included in the records. I never went to check but I assume it was. A word on the "no pago" documents: the ex-official told us that the practice was common in small places, including northern Zacatecas where he was from. I had never heard about this. Has anyone? We saw births from the 1800 also marked 'no vale" and later saw the same in the official book (I assume the document had been paid for). There were not many but a few. I was amazed that they were kept. > I have a similar issue in my father's lineage much further > back. I have a gggg grandfather who was an " > ;expuesto" and whose background I cannot confirm. > Even if his adoptive father is his illegitimate father, > two generations futher back there is an illegimate child's > birth whose baptismal records do not appear in Mazapil, > where he claims to have been born. Somewhat > frustrating. ----------------------------------------------------------I have relatives from Mazapil and they tell me that sometimes when people were involved in mining they baptized their children in another place (I have found this to be true) sometimes returning to their place of origin. I have some realtives from the early 1800s who were born in Ojocaliente and their parents went back to Coahuila where they were from, taking the children with them who were born in Ojocaliente. All their lives they said they were from Coahuila, even in oficial documents but the records preved that to be untue. Have you tried contiguous cities or counties? > There is a book by Thomas Calvo called la Nueva Galicia en > los siglos XVI y XVII. It is a pretty rigorous > ethnologic study based on census and baptismal registry > data that shows that nearly 40% of children born in > Nueva Galicia at the end of the XVI century were > illegitimate ---------------------------------------------There was also the tremendous lack of priests to marry people. In some places in the northern frontier people saw a priest onece every 20 to 30 years! and that family name transmittal was not > very common in the area at the time. ------------------------------------------------You are right. Other things were more important at the time. Besides, naming practices were kind of different at that time and not everybody followed the ones that were established. I think all of this is indicative of our families being in such a > challenging frontier that was suffering a massive > demographic collapse. Families were being torn apart > and survival often required people being transient and > adaptive. > Have people gotten to this point in time where their > genealogies are still in the Ranchos area of Nueva > Galicia? I have definitely seen more and more > illegitimate births as I have gotten closer to this time > period. ------------------------------------------------I found that if the native Indians or mestizos were married in their native religion, the Catholic church considered their children illegitimate but would baptize them. |
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Yes, Arturo, It is so frustrating to know that Anglos here don't have a clue about our history. They are amazed when I request records for 1640, or mention that I just downloaded a census for 1650, for example. They say "They have records in Mexico that go back that far?--Who wrote them?" (they have no clue as to how literate and educated the priests and notaries public were). I tell them that I can trace some ancestors to 1543 (in Panuco, Zacatecas). I just can't trace all the lines back that far and there are such huge gaps sometimes due to the upheavals caused in the founding of a nation and opening up of frontiers and the passage of time. I tell them that Jerez where my father was born is on the National Register of Historical Places in Mexico as a well-preserved Spanish Colonial city founded in the early 1500s. They think their 1620 settlements in Massachusetts are the oldest in the Americas. I don't even think they realize how far back our pre-Colombian history goes, how complex and advanced the civilization was for the time. My sister (born in Colorado as I was) once was told by her boss at work, "Well, Alicia, now that you have adopted this country as your own----". My sister, aware of our mother's heritage in New Mexico since the 1500's, blew up at him and told him, "My people had been here for hundreds of years when your people were still back in Ireland digging up potatoes!" I just cannot fathom the arrogance and pride of such ignoramuses. They think their ancestors were the only explorers and settlers, etc. The folks at the local FHC seem interested when I tell them what I find, such as whole families at haciendas wiped out at once by the Indians (they think such things only happened in their Old West), or that a church bell was dedicated in the 1600's but had been manufactured in Spain in the 1500's, etc. My husband was amazed when I told him that I found a record for a 9 year old Indian boy whose god-parents had "bought" him. I also find that some men used their mother's surname and never their father's (making it such fun to trace), yet both parents are listed on the baptismal record, and of course the Indians were given only first names as were the Negro slaves in the American South. Emilie Garcia Port Orchard, WA ----
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Angie, Thanks for the info -- I guess I never found this before since the title of the Civil Registrar of Jerez is under Ciudad Garcia, and not Jerez like the registros parroquiales. There is another series of Registro Civil for Jerez de Garcia Salinas that start with film 2177857 that lists Nacimientos only for 1871-1874, 1916, 1921-1927, then the rest is matrimonios and nacimientos and defunciones starting in 1906 for Ermita de los Correa, Monte de los Garcia, Palmas Altas, and Cienegillas de Fernandez. In both cases, the main author of each series of Civil Registrar films is "Registro Civil". I wonder why there are two series and why one is titled Jerez de Garcia Salinas (the I had), and one is titled "Ciiudad Garcia" (the one you found). The series you found is so compete, but the one I had is not. I sure wish I could go down to the Zacatecas, the capital, and see what they have, if they even let people look at what they have. Emilie Garcia Port Orchard, WA
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Victor, Yes, you got it right. The state has always made a second copy of the records. The originals (when the book closes) get sent to the state capital and the second copy is supposed to stay in the municipio it came from. The registro civil in Zacatecas City should have the copy of the tome in question (let's hope that it survived la Toma de Zactecas). I had this problem with records from Durango. The documents were found in the registro civil in the city of Durango. Like someone said before ' thank God the Spanish were compulsive record keepers". They taught the Mexicans well! Elvira
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Victor, I was just going over the civil registry records I have checked and I haven't found any trace of my father, aunt or grandmother, nor of a marriage record for my grandfather Francisco Olague and grandmother Gorgonia Garcia. I checked the civil registry for Guadalupe, a town not far from Jerez, where my aunt Soledad's (my father's only sibling) death certificate says she was born. Also, the priest didn't say the records were burned in 1903, but later when the Revolucion war came to Jerez. It seems whoever wanted to destroy records set fire to the church and the civil registry office since the list of LDS films has gaps for 1903 in the bautismos of hijos naturales and all other records in the civil registry. Maybe someone there that wanted to hide something took advantage and destroyed the "evidence". I know Hitler destroyed his home town in Austria to prevent people finding proof he had Jewish blood, and a lady at the FHC says that some politico in Montreal wanted to do the same thing because he was illegitimate. Why else would only a portion of records go missing in both places, the church and the civil registrar? One thing I now know for sure, probably, is that since my father was not listed in the book for hijos legitimos for 1903, that he must have been listed as an hijo natural. Since I don't find a marriage record for my grandparents, I think they were not married. My grandfather was known to be a very large, tall and intimidating man---"a very hard man" someone said. He mistreated the women in his family, even his own mother, and my mother left Colorado when she couldn't stand his bullying and interference, and she didn't return to my father until after his father had died. My father just would not stand up to his father. (My father was only five feet tall and maybe he knew his father would kill him or something. She said that when she used to spank his other grandchildren (my aunt's boys), my grandfather used to come and pinch me and make me cry. He was mean and dangerous. I heard from a cousin that someone was out to get him in Mexico, so he came to the US during the Revolucion. I'll keep hacking away and maybe the forces will feel sorry for me and give me a clue. Emilie Garcia Port Orchard, WA --
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Oh, thanks, Alicia, Now I know that it must have been the Civil Registry office in Jerez that generated that certified record I found on my father. My father had only one sibling, a sister, Soledad Olague and I can't find anything on her either, nor on their mother Gorgonia Garcia. Gorgonia died in Jerez, but my father, his sister and his father and his father's mother and other relatives came to the US in 1913. My grandfather, aunt and great-grandmother are buried in Colorado, my father in San Jose. I've been looking for birth records for them for years with no luck, and have only found them for my grandfather and his parents. Back to the salt mines. Emilie Garcia Port Orchard, WA ----
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Emilie,
I find myself in the same situation. I cannot find birth or christening records for my father in-law Antonio Carrillo Juaregui who was said to have been born around 1901 in Nochistlan or Tlachichila Zacatecas. The breakthrough came when I went to Salt Lake in March and found a birth record for one of his brothers Julian Carrillo born in 1904.
Subsequent to that I did find the marriage records for Antonio's parents Francisco Carrillo, Gomez and Mariana Jauregui, Olmos married Oct,1899 in Nochistlan Zac. so that opened up a window and it's logical that my father in-law would have been born in 1901 because he was said to be the eldest of 3 children. I still can't find the other sibling or don't know whatever happened to the sister or what her name was. My husband grew up not knowing any family on his father's side and believing that his father was orphaned. Come to find out he was not orphaned but abandoned by his parents or so they say because I have not found death records for Francisco or Mariana in that area.
I continue the search and I've been able to trace Mariana Jauregui, Olmos' line back to 1785 but I haven't gotten very far with Francisco Carrillo's line. I suspect that Francisco's father Marcial Carrillo may have come from someplace other than Nochistlan. Marcial Carrillo did marry Juliana Gomes on Jan 1 1874 in Nochistlan Zac.and I have that film on order.
My father in-law had a certified record generated by the Registro Civil with witnesses as a legal birth document but never had an official birth certificate, so yes Emilie I understand your grief at not having the actual birth or christening document for verification purposes but you may be able to find one of his siblings.
Buena Suerte............Alicia Carrillo de San Jose, Ca
Emilie Garcia <auntyemfaustus@...> wrote:
Emilie Garcia <auntyemfaustus@...> wrote:
Oh, Angie, Victor,
I guess the priest my father talked to was correct. The records for 1903 when my father was born were burned during the Revolucion. The films skip from 1902 to 1906. I want to cry.
Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Emilie Garcia
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos
Thaks, Angie ---- I guess I never looked at the whole list for Jerez and only saw the Bautismos on the top.
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA --
----- Original Message -----
From: aajay1073
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 1:36 PM
Subject: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos
Emilie,
Here is this list:
Bautismos de hijos naturales 1867-1891 - FHL INTL Film [ 439889 ]
Bautismos de hijos naturales 1891-1902 - FHL INTL Film [ 439890 ]
Bautismos de hijos naturales 1906-1919 - FHL INTL Film [ 439891 ]
Bautismos de hijos naturales 1953-1961 - VAULT INTL Film [ 439892 ]
Taken from this page:
http://www.familysearch.com/Eng/Library/fhlcatalog/printing/titledetai
lsprint.asp?titleno=354158
Good luck on your search,
Angie Godina
--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia" <auntyemfaustus@h...>
wrote:
>
> Yesterday I was at the local FHC again poring over the microfilm
for baptisms from Jerez around the time my father Guadalupe Olague
was born (January 28, 1903). I have
never been able to locate my
father's birth record in it, even though I have found his father in
Tepetongo (Rancho Salitrillo) and others there back to the early
1700's. While I was loading the film yesterday, I noticed that the
title of the book filmed was "Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos", and sure
enough, I did not find one "hijo natural" or "hijo de padre no
conocido" in it. It seems all other films I have searched included
all baptisms, hijos naturales, adoptivos, etc. even if they made
reference to other books where the actual names of the parents were
written. So, hmmm, was Daddy illegitimate? If so, is there a book
for "hijos naturales" that was not microfilmed? What would such a
book be called? Where would one obtain info from such a book, and
would it take an act of congress to get it?
>
> My father at one time (in the early 1960's) needed a birth record
for work and for Social
Security and we went from California to Jerez
to the church there only to have the priest tell him that all records
for that time period had been burned during the Revolucion. Sometime
later, my father must have contacted a lawyer there because after my
mother died and I was going through all their records, I found an
affadavit to prove his previously unrecorded birth. As testigos and
witnesses that my father was born in Jerez were listed some men
(maybe they are deceased by now) that bore the surnames of his
parent's and grandparent's lines (Munos, Soriano. Escobedo, Garcia).
His mother was Gorgonia Garcia. Where and how did this lawyer find
them? One place name mentioned was "La Gavia", but it is not one of
the places mentioned in the film I have been looking at (0439867).
In the list of Communidades (Rancherias) de Jerez that I have, La
Gavia is mentioned as being founded by the Garcia-Cadena,
Diaz, and
Escobedo families at the end of the 16th century. The list names 142
communidades y rancherias for Jerez alone. Some of my father's
ancestors were Felix, and there is a community or rancho called Los
Felix on the list. That was founded by Jose and Doroteo Felix. The
community of Tepetongo where my father's ancestors were from was
called Salitrillo, and is not listed in the list for Jerez even
though Tepetongo was in the Jurisdiccion de Jerez.
>
> Does anyone know about books for "hijos naturales", etc?
>
> Emilie Garcia
> Port Orchard, WA.
>
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style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> Oh, Angie, Victor, I guess the priest my father talked to was correct. The records for 1903 when my father was born were burned during the Revolucion. The films skip from 1902 to 1906. I want to cry. Emilie
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Thaks, Angie ---- I guess I never looked at the whole list for Jerez and only saw the Bautismos on the top. Emilie Garcia Port Orchard, WA --
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