Arturo,

I've been to the Ixtlahuacan del Rio parrish twice. My first time 
going I called about a month prior to my trip and asked for the 
specific records. The girl agreed to have them ready when I got 
there. When I arrived the girl was very nice, but said she hadn't had 
time to get the records, but she still had the list of names and 
dates. There were quite a few and I offered to help her look through 
the books. She allowed me to look through the books and get xerox 
copies!  The books were from the early to mid 1800's and were in 
fairly good shape. The cover appeared to be a piece of leather and 
for a clasp it had a string wound around a button. I had taken a gift 
to her and she was very happy.  I offered a donation at the end, but 
she would not take it.

My second trip was not as fruitful. There were two teenagers working 
there who were not very helpful and the office was full people 
waiting for help. I had a fairly long list, and they were having 
trouble finding the names. I only got one or two records and no 
chance of getting close to the books.

I think that if I go back I would call first. The gift went over very 
well.  They are used to mordidas, so a gift from the States might be 
more appealing.  Good luck.

Maria

-- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Arturo Ramos" <arturo.ramos2@v...> 
wrote:
>
> There are a whole set of records from the original Franciscan 
Convent 
> set up in Colotlan in 1591 that are supposedly at the Colotlan 
> church.  These include baptismal and marriage records prior to the 
> foundation of the actual church in 1720 (all of these on FHC 
> films)... These are the ones I really want to look at.
> 
> I imagine that since the civil registry has to have mechanisms to 
> obtain copies of documents in their possession, they can be more 
> reticent about letting people see the originals... plus I have 
heard 
> that documents created since the time civil registry was instituted 
> in Mexico are in worse shape than the old baptismal records because 
> of printing on non-acid-free paper, whereas old records were 
written 
> with much more durable inks on much more durable paper.
> 
> We will see.  I am looking at writing to the parish head before I 
> head down and perhaps getting a local historian to vouch for me. 
> 
> --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alicia Carrillo <alliecar@p...> 
wrote:
> >
> > Erlinda and Arturo,
> >  
> > I too found that they will not let you see the actual records. 
When 
> I went to Nochistlan Zac they were  quite advanced for a small town 
> in Mexico. They all had computers at the front office of the 
Registro 
> Civil. The records that they did have they printed out certified 
> documents for us based on what they had in the data base. I was 
able 
> to come away with 6 certified documents but they don't let you 
access 
> their books. When I asked for documents for my parents of 1925 they 
> said they don't have any books for 1925 they were all destroyed or 
> lost.
> >  
> > In Tlachichila the smaller town they have the books but they 
still 
> won't let you see the books and there again they did not have 
records 
> for 1925. I need to talk to the town historian or read a little 
> history to see what happened in the year 1925.
> > 
> > I too have had better luck at my local FHC as well as at Salt 
Lake 
> FHC. It's still good to visit your ancestor's town but don't expect 
> to see much in terms of records or archives.
> > Erlinda Castanon-Long <longsjourney@y...> wrote:
> > Arturo, When I was in El Limon Jalisco in 2003 we went to the 
> parish 
> > office and talked with the girl in the office who told us we 
could 
> > not look at the actual books even though they were on the shelf 
> > behind her.  The priest walked in and asked what family we were 
> > looking for? My cousin's husband was trying to find his Santana 
> > ancestors who turned out to be part of the priests family.  He 
> asked 
> > what year and took out a book wrapped in plastic because it was 
> > frail.  We opened it and the pages started turning to dust and 
> > blowing away.  Needless to say we closed it immediately and 
thanked 
> > him for allowing us to try.  It's very dry there and no special 
> > precautions were taken to preserve the books.
> > We went to Tamazula de Gordiano Jalisco next and they were so 
busy 
> > that they gave very poor service telling us they tried but 
couldn't 
> > find the records.  They had no copy machine so would have to do a 
> > form letter for whatever information was found, came home and 
found 
> > the records at the local FHC.. 
> > In Jerez Zacatecas they didn't have a copy machine either but 
were 
> > willing to talk to my cousin who's Spanish was much better than 
> > mine. I found it was much easier to get the records at the FHC.  
I 
> > didn't try to find land records or any other type of records 
> though, 
> > that was beyond my abilities to read records. Our time was 
limited 
> > so I had to chose what to try to accomplish so I decided to enjoy 
> > the land and the people.
> > I hope you have better luck than I did.
> > Linda in Everett
> > 
> > --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Arturo Ramos" 
<arturo.ramos2@v...> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I will be spending about three weeks this December and January 
in 
> > > Jalisco and Zacatecas and am hoping to make it to the parrishes 
> in 
> > > Colotlan and Tlaltenango, perhaps Atolinga as well as the 
> archives 
> > in 
> > > Guadalajara...
> > > 
> > > Question... has anyone ever asked to see the actual books held 
at 
> > the 
> > > parrishes?  I am thinking of asking to photograph some of them, 
> > but 
> > > don't know how well that would go over.
> > > 
> > > Any tips would be appreciated.  I am also going to try to do an 
> > > interview with Esteban Valdes Salazar who has published some 
very 
> > good 
> > > genealogy and history books on Totatiche.  He is the 
> > local "cronista" 
> > > and has obviously spent lots of time pouring over old archival 
> > > documents, including the transcription of the 1591 census of 
> > Tlaxcaltec 
> > > migrants to Colotlan and the entire 1770 Totatiche census (over 
> > 3000 
> > > names).  So if there are any questions anyone would like to 
ask, 
> > please 
> > > let me know.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> >
>

I went to Zacatatecas and visited a number of towns. Fortunately, I was able to take a 
long-lost relative to Valparaiso, Zacatecas, where he showed me around, including taking 
me to the Iglesia of that city. He knew somebody there at the church but that person was 
not available. He then took me to directly to a small office located adjacent to the church, 
where all the baptism/marriage/death records were kept. We asked if we could review 
baptism records but we received only a cold stare, not a no and not a yes. I got the 
definite impression that it was not allowed. My friend and I kept talking in Spanish, being 
friendly, and dropping a few apellidos here and there; I imagine the entire town is related 
directly or indirectly if you go back far enough.

Anyway, after a little more chit-chat, I told her exactly what years and types of records I 
wanted to see, e.g. 1890-1895 baptisms. Amazingly, she brought out the INDEX to those 
baptisms, which included dates, names (alphabetized). I was like a kid in a candy store. I 
found exactly what I wanted. Each time the archives lady would look up the index, go to 
the back, and bring me the bound records. I  would have stayed for days if I had been 
allowed to do so. Unfortunately we could only stay for 20-30 minutes because of previous 
family obligations. 

Each volume of church records was still in fair-poor condition but I doubt they could last 
much more than 50-100 years more since many pages were practically falling off their 
bound pages---they had been through bad weather, wars, fire, and God only knows what 
else. I was allowed to photograph the records with a digitial camera. Upon leaving, I gave 
the señora 100 pesos which she initially did not take but eventually did; she appeared very 
poor but proud of what she did.

In summary, given my experience, I would call somebody in the city where you plan to go 
and ask if you can review the church records; a true local would help. A date should be 
arranged and perhaps a donation could be made to the church in return for the honor of 
seeing their archives. I have no idea of how you review public municipal records and how 
much red tape is involved. As it is, most of the material, not all, is available via the 
Mormons Films. I still have not found Mormon films of the records I photographed in 
Valparaiso. Maybe in some cities all of the above is allowed without any effort or planning 
but somehow I doubt.

My visit provided church records that proved my direct relationship to the Felguerez family 
of Valparaiso and Colotlan. There was a certain peace that I felt afterward.

Ed

Arturo, When I was in El Limon Jalisco in 2003 we went to the parish 
office and talked with the girl in the office who told us we could 
not look at the actual books even though they were on the shelf 
behind her.  The priest walked in and asked what family we were 
looking for? My cousin's husband was trying to find his Santana 
ancestors who turned out to be part of the priests family.  He asked 
what year and took out a book wrapped in plastic because it was 
frail.  We opened it and the pages started turning to dust and 
blowing away.  Needless to say we closed it immediately and thanked 
him for allowing us to try.  It's very dry there and no special 
precautions were taken to preserve the books.
We went to Tamazula de Gordiano Jalisco next and they were so busy 
that they gave very poor service telling us they tried but couldn't 
find the records.  They had no copy machine so would have to do a 
form letter for whatever information was found, came home and found 
the records at the local FHC.. 
In Jerez Zacatecas they didn't have a copy machine either but were 
willing to talk to my cousin who's Spanish was much better than 
mine. I found it was much easier to get the records at the FHC.  I 
didn't try to find land records or any other type of records though, 
that was beyond my abilities to read records. Our time was limited 
so I had to chose what to try to accomplish so I decided to enjoy 
the land and the people.
I hope you have better luck than I did.
Linda in Everett

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Arturo Ramos" <arturo.ramos2@v...> 
wrote:
>
> I will be spending about three weeks this December and January in 
> Jalisco and Zacatecas and am hoping to make it to the parrishes in 
> Colotlan and Tlaltenango, perhaps Atolinga as well as the archives 
in 
> Guadalajara...
> 
> Question... has anyone ever asked to see the actual books held at 
the 
> parrishes?  I am thinking of asking to photograph some of them, 
but 
> don't know how well that would go over.
> 
> Any tips would be appreciated.  I am also going to try to do an 
> interview with Esteban Valdes Salazar who has published some very 
good 
> genealogy and history books on Totatiche.  He is the 
local "cronista" 
> and has obviously spent lots of time pouring over old archival 
> documents, including the transcription of the 1591 census of 
Tlaxcaltec 
> migrants to Colotlan and the entire 1770 Totatiche census (over 
3000 
> names).  So if there are any questions anyone would like to ask, 
please 
> let me know.
>