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color=#0000ff size=2>Elvira and Victor.......thanks to both of you for the great explanations! I am learning so much from all of this! Josie in San Antonio From: ranchos@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of elviraz Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 6:01 AM To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Maternal Lineage in Tepetongo/Huejucar-Re: [ranchos] Emilie, Joseph, please bottom of message. Eemilie: Re your >But those results show that an African Eve (L1-a) entered into my lineage at some point.< In southern Mexico tthere were quite a number of black slaves and free blacks. Results like yours would not be uncommon. In fact they would be very common in places like Tabasco, southern Sinaloa, Coahuila, San Luis Potosi, Guerrero state, and about five other states. All of them have large pockets where a large number of blacks lived. I suspect that these and Filipino will be somewhat common in the Mexican seaports. These are just the special places, however, In Mexico Blacks went to all corners of the country. I Know people from Puebla who have black backgounds. By the way, Some of those Mexican blacks moved to California. Goevernor Pico and family did. Regarding blacks in Mexico, there are pretty good records of when Blacks arrived in Mexico and for how long a period there were slaves in Mexico. In some states there are pretty good histories of when blacks arrived there and where and with whom they went to live. I have a book covering San Luis Potosi and a couple of others covering part of the Zacatecas region (not the present state but the region). I can look up dates and other facts for you later when I get out of school. I am presently having midterms and finals in about four weeks, so I am very busy. I will be answering a lot of my mail as I get the time even if it is late because some of it is really important for our purposes. face=Arial>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The person writing below is Ann from the Rootsweb DNA List. "maternal lines in (or back to) Zacatecas, especially Tepetongo to test for mtDNA. I don't think anyone has started a Zacatecas mtDNA project yet...::Grin::" face=Arial>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ NOTE from Elvira: She sent me some references when I asked for information about Haplogroup A, which is the oldest mother branch known to date in the Americas. This is the most prevalent matriarchal branch in Mexico. If you are interested or know of anyone who would be interested in a haplogroup A discussion group, please let me know. What follows is what Ian sent me as a quick explanation about haplogroup A. Haplogroup A is a widespread haplogroup - stretching all the way from Western Asia, across to China & Japan, and into the Americas. It would seem that the migrations eastwards were only of small groups; and I would suggest there were never any big populations. Nowadays, it would seem that only Japan has a meaningful percentage of persons of Haplogroup A. Anyway, you are Haplogroup A - and from an 'American twiglet'. Presumably we are talking about descent from persons going into the Americas between 5,000 and 15,000 years ago. ........... So, "A very nice Haplogroup A pattern". Yes, a very typical Haplogroup A. Clearly you are 'A' and no thoughts of anything else. ........... 6. Mishmar A42.JS AY195786(Mixteca-B). Yes, this is the one I mentioned. There is, for the present, quite a shortage of complete sequences for the 'American twigs' of Branch A. There are lots from Japanese people - but these are clearly different from your result.
size=2>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE from Elvira: Below are my mtDNA readings so that you can see what Ian is refering to right below my numbers.
size=2> HVR1 Haplogroup A (these readings just give you the general group and are called low resolution) with differences from CRS at face=Arial size=2> 16111T 16223T 16290T 16319A 16335G 16526A HVR2 differences from CRS at (these are the ones that make it high resolution, or give you a good idea with similar names or a paper trail or proximity i the same area that those that also match you here might be your relatives in somewhere back 5-7 generations ago). 64T 73G 146C 153G 235G 263G 309.1C 315.1C .............. NOTE: Ian says..... The 64T is an especially nice feature. OK, let me talk a bit about this for a bit and see if I can show why some mutations are more 'special' than others So here is your list - placed in numeric order. [the order inwhich they present themselves in the DNA string sequence]. 64T, 73G, 146C, 153G, 235G, 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C 16111T, 16223T, 16290T, 16319A, 16335G, 16526A But that is not the order in which they occurred in your ancestors. So, let me separate the mutations that don't really belong to Haplogroup A; and these are: face="Times New Roman"> 73G, 263G, 309.1, 315.1, 16223T as these are the mutations that separate Haplogroup H (and the Cambridge Reference Sequence (CRS) from your haplogroup. This leaves just 9 mutations which are special for Haplogroup A. 64T, 146C, 153G, 235G, 16111T, 16290T, 16319A, 16335G, 16526A Now, let me see if it is possible to put these in some sort of historical order ? Well, 235G, 16290T & 16319A, 16111T & 146C probably come next; and possibly represents what your ancestor had on entry to the Americas. And, what is left - well: 64T, 153G, 16335G, 16526A and this list represents your more 'personal' mutations; and each of these is really quite uncommon anywhere in the World - you are very lucky ! as most people do not have any 'personal' mutations, let alone 4 ! Actually, now I have looked at things more closely, I find that 16335G is more even more special than 64T . ............. So that is it; and over the next few years you want to look out for mention of your 4 'personal' mutations. I haven't looked up any papers that deal with American populations, - the Mixteca is just one in Mexico (I think), but I think Ann has written to say there might be something to be found about Panamanians. NOTE from Elvira: I looked up the Panamanian group and sure enough, they were haplogrooup A. size=2>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I had been thinking about it forming our own haplogroup A from Tepetongo because I have not had many matches, other than a female who was adopted somewhere in California (doesn't have any paper trail as she never knew who her biological parents were), and a male from New Mexico. Both matched me in high resolution match which means that probably we are related about 5-7 generations back) . These matches were high resolution matches which makes them highly intriguing. The male's mother does come from a Zacatecas family and the female is a question mark as to location but I have a feeling that she is Mexican (she doesn't know what nationality she is). My ancestress from Tepetongo (Maria-Josefa Luera/Loera (this is a last name of French origin from the Loire Valley in the Celtic area of France, perhaps her father was French? ) was always refered to as being Spanish," but DNA showed that she was Indian (interesting since all her female descendants have looked white down to my grandma who was also referred to as being "Spanish". Her husband was also referred to as being Spanish, unfortunately I don't have his DNA. My grandma married an Indian from Zacatecas. Exactly half of her kids came out white and the other half came out brown. I might add, all looked alike, just some white and some brown!). Now, this is my maternal grandfather's branch: The first test results from a direct descendant from this Indian branch just came in (low resoution @ 12 markers). This male is being shown as belonging to haplogroup I, which is associated with Europe. No one seems to be European in that branch, nor is there any memory of anyone being "Spanish", i. e. white), thus this YDNA group is befuddling. The following is what I got from the FTDNA site. **The I, I1, and I1a lineages are nearly completely restricted to northwestern Europe. These would most likely have been common within Viking populations. One lineage of this group extends down into central Europe** Ian from the Brooking Society sent me this explanation: > Unfortunately, I cannot add much to what you know. > > The y-chromosome Haplogroup I is a very sparse group, and it is found in very low numbers throughout Europe. > > In the Brooking Society tests we have found just one Haplogroup I result, and have also wondered where it comes from. > > Certainly, it is European, and is not Native American. Possibly we are talking about an early population that travelled northwards past the Caspian and Black Seas and into Northern Europe. There are 'I' people found in the Viking peoples - but I suggest > that Haplogroup I pre-dates the 'Vikings' by several thousands of years. Overall, I think that Haplogroup I people are survivors from the very earliest people who came into Europe. Whereas the R1's are very much later, and represent sudden population growths from possibly 2,000-3,000 years ago. ----- Original Message -----
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Emilie, Joseph, please bottom of message. Eemilie: Re your >But those results show that an African Eve (L1-a) entered into my lineage at some point.< In southern Mexico tthere were quite a number of black slaves and free blacks. Results like yours would not be uncommon. In fact they would be very common in places like Tabasco, southern Sinaloa, Coahuila, San Luis Potosi, Guerrero state, and about five other states. All of them have large pockets where a large number of blacks lived. I suspect that these and Filipino will be somewhat common in the Mexican seaports. These are just the special places, however, In Mexico Blacks went to all corners of the country. I Know people from Puebla who have black backgounds. By the way, Some of those Mexican blacks moved to California. Goevernor Pico and family did. Regarding blacks in Mexico, there are pretty good records of when Blacks arrived in Mexico and for how long a period there were slaves in Mexico. In some states there are pretty good histories of when blacks arrived there and where and with whom they went to live. I have a book covering San Luis Potosi and a couple of others covering part of the Zacatecas region (not the present state but the region). I can look up dates and other facts for you later when I get out of school. I am presently having midterms and finals in about four weeks, so I am very busy. I will be answering a lot of my mail as I get the time even if it is late because some of it is really important for our purposes. face=Arial>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The person writing below is Ann from the Rootsweb DNA List. "maternal lines in (or back to) Zacatecas, especially Tepetongo to test for mtDNA. I don't think anyone has started a Zacatecas mtDNA project yet...::Grin::" face=Arial>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ NOTE from Elvira: She sent me some references when I asked for information about Haplogroup A, which is the oldest mother branch known to date in the Americas. This is the most prevalent matriarchal branch in Mexico. If you are interested or know of anyone who would be interested in a haplogroup A discussion group, please let me know. What follows is what Ian sent me as a quick explanation about haplogroup A. Haplogroup A is a widespread haplogroup - stretching all the way from Western Asia, across to China & Japan, and into the Americas. It would seem that the migrations eastwards were only of small groups; and I would suggest there were never any big populations. Nowadays, it would seem that only Japan has a meaningful percentage of persons of Haplogroup A. Anyway, you are Haplogroup A - and from an 'American twiglet'. Presumably we are talking about descent from persons going into the Americas between 5,000 and 15,000 years ago. ........... So, "A very nice Haplogroup A pattern". Yes, a very typical Haplogroup A. Clearly you are 'A' and no thoughts of anything else. ........... 6. Mishmar A42.JS AY195786(Mixteca-B). Yes, this is the one I mentioned. There is, for the present, quite a shortage of complete sequences for the 'American twigs' of Branch A. There are lots from Japanese people - but these are clearly different from your result.
size=2>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE from Elvira: Below are my mtDNA readings so that you can see what Ian is refering to right below my numbers.
size=2> HVR1 Haplogroup A (these readings just give you the general group and are called low resolution) with differences from CRS at face=Arial size=2> 16111T 16223T 16290T 16319A 16335G 16526A HVR2 differences from CRS at (these are the ones that make it high resolution, or give you a good idea with similar names or a paper trail or proximity i the same area that those that also match you here might be your relatives in somewhere back 5-7 generations ago). 64T 73G 146C 153G 235G 263G 309.1C 315.1C .............. NOTE: Ian says..... The 64T is an especially nice feature. OK, let me talk a bit about this for a bit and see if I can show why some mutations are more 'special' than others So here is your list - placed in numeric order. [the order inwhich they present themselves in the DNA string sequence]. 64T, 73G, 146C, 153G, 235G, 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C 16111T, 16223T, 16290T, 16319A, 16335G, 16526A But that is not the order in which they occurred in your ancestors. So, let me separate the mutations that don't really belong to Haplogroup A; and these are: face="Times New Roman"> 73G, 263G, 309.1, 315.1, 16223T as these are the mutations that separate Haplogroup H (and the Cambridge Reference Sequence (CRS) from your haplogroup. This leaves just 9 mutations which are special for Haplogroup A. 64T, 146C, 153G, 235G, 16111T, 16290T, 16319A, 16335G, 16526A Now, let me see if it is possible to put these in some sort of historical order ? Well, 235G, 16290T & 16319A, 16111T & 146C probably come next; and possibly represents what your ancestor had on entry to the Americas. And, what is left - well: 64T, 153G, 16335G, 16526A and this list represents your more 'personal' mutations; and each of these is really quite uncommon anywhere in the World - you are very lucky ! as most people do not have any 'personal' mutations, let alone 4 ! Actually, now I have looked at things more closely, I find that 16335G is more even more special than 64T . ............. So that is it; and over the next few years you want to look out for mention of your 4 'personal' mutations. I haven't looked up any papers that deal with American populations, - the Mixteca is just one in Mexico (I think), but I think Ann has written to say there might be something to be found about Panamanians. NOTE from Elvira: I looked up the Panamanian group and sure enough, they were haplogrooup A. size=2>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I had been thinking about it forming our own haplogroup A from Tepetongo because I have not had many matches, other than a female who was adopted somewhere in California (doesn't have any paper trail as she never knew who her biological parents were), and a male from New Mexico. Both matched me in high resolution match which means that probably we are related about 5-7 generations back) . These matches were high resolution matches which makes them highly intriguing. The male's mother does come from a Zacatecas family and the female is a question mark as to location but I have a feeling that she is Mexican (she doesn't know what nationality she is). My ancestress from Tepetongo (Maria-Josefa Luera/Loera (this is a last name of French origin from the Loire Valley in the Celtic area of France, perhaps her father was French? ) was always refered to as being Spanish," but DNA showed that she was Indian (interesting since all her female descendants have looked white down to my grandma who was also referred to as being "Spanish". Her husband was also referred to as being Spanish, unfortunately I don't have his DNA. My grandma married an Indian from Zacatecas. Exactly half of her kids came out white and the other half came out brown. I might add, all looked alike, just some white and some brown!). Now, this is my maternal grandfather's branch: The first test results from a direct descendant from this Indian branch just came in (low resoution @ 12 markers). This male is being shown as belonging to haplogroup I, which is associated with Europe. No one seems to be European in that branch, nor is there any memory of anyone being "Spanish", i. e. white), thus this YDNA group is befuddling. The following is what I got from the FTDNA site. **The I, I1, and I1a lineages are nearly completely restricted to northwestern Europe. These would most likely have been common within Viking populations. One lineage of this group extends down into central Europe** Ian from the Brooking Society sent me this explanation: > Unfortunately, I cannot add much to what you know. > > The y-chromosome Haplogroup I is a very sparse group, and it is found in very low numbers throughout Europe. > > In the Brooking Society tests we have found just one Haplogroup I result, and have also wondered where it comes from. > > Certainly, it is European, and is not Native American. Possibly we are talking about an early population that travelled northwards past the Caspian and Black Seas and into Northern Europe. There are 'I' people found in the Viking peoples - but I suggest > that Haplogroup I pre-dates the 'Vikings' by several thousands of years. Overall, I think that Haplogroup I people are survivors from the very earliest people who came into Europe. Whereas the R1's are very much later, and represent sudden population growths from possibly 2,000-3,000 years ago. ----- Original Message -----
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