TEST SITE - DO NOT USE - Development only

A sad note in our history.....
I was just a youngster at that time, living near 1st
street and Boyle Heights, near downtown Los Angeles
and remember the pachucos, most of them were 1st and
2nd generation Mexican-Americans.  

We were literately 2nd class citizens and were treated
worst than most other ethic groups;  when even while
our fathers, uncles, cousins, friends, were dying in
the battle fields of Europe and Asia defending the
same people that hated us!

It was only my Christan faith that saved me.  I knew
that God would eventually punish those that mistreated
us.

Alberto.

--- janet iglesias <reynavaleria@...> wrote:


---------------------------------

I know I'm a little bit late to jump into this
conversation but there is a great example of what
Esperanza is stating in the movie "American Me" with
Edward James Olmos. Great movie on how gangs influence
Los Angeles.



~Janet Iglesias, San Diego CA



>From: latina1955@...
>Reply-To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
>To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [ranchos] Pachuco
>Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:32:50 EDT
>
>I recently saw a documentary on Pachuco's. It
indicated that it first
>appeared around the 2nd world war in California,
simply as a style statement worn
>by many Mexican-Americans. Apparently, there was a
confrontation between a
>group of pachuco's and naval men - all started
because the naval men were
>interested in their women. This incident started a
retaliation from the naval
>men, who would come into the neighborhoods and beat
the pachuco's up. This, in
>turn, gave the pachuco's a bad reputation, as the
press just focused on their
>behavior, and of course they were the ones that were
arrested. The
>confrontations continued until the President of the
US ordered that the men were not
>to come off the ships. The tally of those hurt were
much more enormous
>towards the pachucos - something like 100 to 3. It is
my understanding that after
>this, there was a movement for the "gangs" to
identify with the pachuco's -
>hence their later reputation.
>
>Esperanza
>Chicago area

    
    
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Rancho:

Un rancho es un asentamiento o lugar donde se establece una persona o
una comunidad.

Rancho: es un lugar fuera de una poblacion donde se albergan varias
personas.

Rancho: Granja donde se crian caballos, vacas y otros animales
domesticos.

Hay ranchos dedicados a la Agricultura y otros a la Ganaderia.

I hope this helps.

John Gonzalez
Wildomar, CA
S.W. Riverside County

Joseph,

My answer to you comes from my own observations and experiences.  I've never seen any scholarly research work on "pachuquismo".  I don't want to sound as though I somehow know everything about the subject.  My answere to your questions is "yes".  Gangs existed before the pachuco style of dress became popular.  I saw the gangsters adopt the pachuco style of dress.  I also saw many young people, non-criminal, non-gangster, imitate the style of dress.  The non-gangster pachuco was accepting of any and all who wanted to "join" the "movement".  I saw anglos, african-americans and others accepted as gangsters.  The depiction of this in Luis Valdez' movie, "Zoot Suit", matches my recollections.  As a pre-teen and teen-ager I thought it was cool to peg my baggy pants.  There is a way to fold and roll up the pant leg so that it looks custom-made (from a distance).  Some people in the forties and fifties accepted the pachuco style just as many young people today seem to think that the "gangsta" is cool.  The problem is that many of the folks who dressed as pachucos were downright mean and violent.  There were many people who had a saying: ...all pachucos are chicanos but not all chicanos are pachucos...  For many folks their negative experiences did not allow for any good words for the pachucos.  Our language possesses so many layers of regional- and culturally-specific meanings that it's really hard to come up with any meaningful "explanation".  There are gangs everywhere, Joseph.  Even our schools, every schools, is infected with them.  Some to a greater degree than others.  Some places, L.A. for example, there is a virtual war ongoing between law enforcement and gangs.  You know, this discussion could go on for days.  I have tried, in my younger years, to talk with others about it.  It always becomes emotional for some people.  I used to have more facts at my disposal when I was teaching a Chicano studies course in the seventies.  I haven't quite kept up with it as of the nineties when I moved into administration.  It's a very absorbing and interesting subject.  It's too bad that the academics and activists never did get together on this.  Later...

David Delgado in Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Puentes <makas@...>
Sent: Jul 5, 2005 11:51 PM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ranchos] La Catrina

<html><body>


<tt>
<BR>
<BR>
David P. Delgado wrote:<BR>
<BR>

If anyone is into "Podcasting" more so from the listening standpoint
here is something of interest for those interested in an insiders view
of things at the vatican:

http://www.catholicinsider.com/

joseph

ps: down load one or two shows to your computer and have a listen.

David P. Delgado wrote:

Emilie,

As I remember, Posada created a caricature of the overdressed upper class types in 19th Century Mexico.  El Catrin = "dandy" and la Catrina is the feminine form of the word.  La Catrina was a person but a generic stereotype.  Posada did not intend the caricature to be a complimentary one.The only other people I heard use the word "catrin" were the pachucos in the late 1940's and the early '50's.  They used it to describe someone who was dressed up and looked "sharp".  I grew up in Southern Cal and saw many pachucos including family members.

man did the pachucos dress sharp!!! My uncle was one and I can remember
his cool threads. I was young and never understood but did the pachucos
hang together as gangs? Or were they all individuals? Did the "pachuco
movement" ever cross the border? Are there gangs in Mexico now. . .as in
the types of gangs we see in US now?

Emilie,

As I remember, Posada created a caricature of the overdressed upper class types in 19th Century Mexico.  El Catrin = "dandy" and la Catrina is the feminine form of the word.  La Catrina was a person but a generic stereotype.  Posada did not intend the caricature to be a complimentary one.The only other people I heard use the word "catrin" were the pachucos in the late 1940's and the early '50's.  They used it to describe someone who was dressed up and looked "sharp".  I grew up in Southern Cal and saw many pachucos including family members.

David in Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: "Steve G. Apodaca" <sgapodaca@...>
Sent: Jul 5, 2005 4:12 PM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] La Catrina

<html><body>


<tt>
Here is a link to the picture of La Catrina<BR>
<BR>
<a href="http://muertos.palomar.edu/posada/skelhat.JPG&quot;>http://muertos.palomar.edu/posada/skelhat.JPG</a><BR>
<BR>
There are several of Posada's drawings in the following page. Just <BR>
scroll down to &quot;Calaveras&quot;<BR>
<BR>
<a href="http://muertos.palomar.edu/posdad.htm&quot;>http://muertos.palomar.edu/posdad.htm</a><BR>
<BR>
Steve.<BR>
OC,CA<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, &quot;Emilie Garcia&quot; <BR>
&lt;auntyemfaustus@h...&gt; wrote:<BR>
&gt; Ok, now, who is La Catrina?&nbsp; Even my husband, who was more into <BR>
the culture until the age of 12 in El Paso, doesn't know either.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Emilie Garcia<BR>
&gt; Port Orchard, WA<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; ----- Original Message -----<BR>
&gt; From: Natalie<BR>
&gt; Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 4:38 AM<BR>
&gt; To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com<BR>
&gt; Subject: [ranchos] Dia de los Muertos<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; I don't remember &quot;celebrating&quot; this holiday as a youngster (in <BR>
the&nbsp; <BR>

Here is a link to the picture of La Catrina

http://muertos.palomar.edu/posada/skelhat.JPG

There are several of Posada's drawings in the following page. Just 
scroll down to "Calaveras"

http://muertos.palomar.edu/posdad.htm

Steve.
OC,CA



--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia" 
<auntyemfaustus@h...> wrote:
> Ok, now, who is La Catrina?  Even my husband, who was more into 
the culture until the age of 12 in El Paso, doesn't know either.
> 
> Emilie Garcia
> Port Orchard, WA
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Natalie
> Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 4:38 AM
> To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [ranchos] Dia de los Muertos
> 
> I don't remember "celebrating" this holiday as a youngster (in 
the  
> 40's & 50's), either. And it is only in the last 10-15 yrs that I  
> have been exposed to this custom.
> In the past two years the Smithsonian has had public programs for  
> DDLM, (one day affairs) with music (strolling mariachi), dance,  
> displays, and crafts.
> The Mexican Cultural Institute (Washington, DC), in the building 
that  
> formerly housed the Embassy of Mexico, have hosted a DDLM exhibit 
the  
> past 3 yrs - with a magnificent altar in their blue & white tiled 
sun  
> room, reception, and music. Last year there was even a woman 
dressed  
> as La Catrina.
> About 6 or 7 yrs ago I began putting up an altar in my yard (then  
> moved it to the porch). I would put it up a day or two before  
> Halloween - so trick or treaters would get an education when they  
> came for their treats. I deviated from the standard of 
remembering  
> and honor family members by remembering friends and family who 
had  
> died in the previous 12 months - I would just post a list. I got 
a  
> lot of ideas online on how to set it up. It has evolved over the  
> years. Now my two oldest grand-children (ages 5 & 3) look forward 
to  
> helping me set up the altar. As they grow older maybe they will 
have  
> an understanding of honoring the antepasados.
> Thanks to all for sharing the cemetery memories - very informative.
> Happy Fourth! * * * (fireworks!)
> 
> Natalie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS  
> 
>  Visit your group "ranchos" on the web.

El dia de los muertos is celebrated differently, depending on the 
region of Mexico where you are at. My family, and the people I know 
in Zacoalco and Guadalajara, visit their dead loved ones on November 
2 each year. I remember that when I was a kid they took me several 
times to my grandfather's grave, and I remember that after a short 
prayer, my dad used to talk directly to my grandfather, staring at 
his grave, just like if he was having a conversation with him. I am 
used to this, but maybe someone may think it is weird. Anyways, 
after "talking" with my grandfather, we always cut some sugar cane 
from a plantation inside the cemetery and ate the sticks on the way 
back home.

I did not learn about altars for the dead until I came to the United 
States. In Jalisco, I never saw one, I guess it is not a tradition 
in the state. In California, I found out that those who put the 
altars were mostly people from Michoacan. Down there, they really 
have a big celebration for November 2. The one that comes to my mind 
is the one in the island of Janitzio, right in the middle of the 
Lago de Patzcuaro in Michoacan. At night, the cemetery is full of 
people. There are lots of candles, flowers, everybody is talking, 
playing their guitars, singing, and having a good time in general.

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Erlinda Castanon-Long 
<longsjourney@y...> wrote:
> Hi Irma, 
> I had never heard of Dia de los Muertos either!  My paternal 
family (Zacatecas) and my maternal family (Jalisco)  didn't observe 
it at all, I saw it on television and asked my 84 year old father 
and he said they didn't do that in Jerez.. I'm assuming the custom 
came more from the Indeginous side of our heritage?  Burial customs 
vary so much from culture to culture. 
>  
>  My mother died many years ago but purchased a burial site in 
Stockton Ca. that has one plot on top of another. My father calls it 
a 'condo' and doesn't like the idea of being buried on top of her!   
I do find it very interesting that the Mexican culture which holds 
it's elders in such high esteem does not like to "visit" them once 
they die?  Maybe the fact that they have to bury their loved ones 
themselves, even preparing them for burial, digging the hole and 
dropping them into it makes the difference.  Here stateside we 
sanitize it and only have to show up for the services.  Strangers do 
the rest for us, keeps it clean, neat and detached.. Curious how 
customs are established.

Hello,

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Maria,
	I thought about this a lot this weekend.  I spent some time with my
folks this weekend.  My parents told me the same thing.  They pray the
rosary and have masses said for the dead.  They also reminded me that the
cemetery only holds their bodies, not their souls.  I guess this says it
all.  Wow!
Irma 

-----Original Message-----
From: readysetgo95814 [mailto:nena@...] 
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 11:25 PM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Re: Margarita's rememberance of Jerez, Zacatecas

Wow Irma, your Dad sounds just like mine.  The last time I went to San
Nicolas with him I asked about going to the cemetery where my grandfather is
buried and he had no interest in doing that. He asked me why I wanted to go.
I explained to him that I might find some valuable genealogical information
there.  He said there were not many headstones and there were mostly wooden
crosses on otherwise unmarked graves.  I still would like to go and see for
myself and plan do so sometime in the future.

I also asked him about dia de los Muertos and why we were never told about
or practiced the custom. He replied that he never did either. 
When I asked him what my grandparents did to honor the dead he told me that
they prayed the Rosary.  Now that I am researching our genealogy and have
found that for the last 300 to 500 years our ancestors were Catholic I
understand the reason.

Maria

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Irma GomezLucero <igomezlucero@c...>
wrote:
> I envy you Linda.  I tried to get my dad and family in Mexico to
take me to
> the cemetery where my grandmother was buried.  My dad interrupted
and
> refused to take me there.  His response was, "Why do you want to go
to a
> place where everyone is dead when you have all of these live
relatives?"
> Okay how do you respond when your "live" relatives are staring at
you.
> Enjoying history, I have always "enjoyed" going to cemeteries
because there
> is so much history there.  No, I don't like funerals though.  Next
time I
> will go on my own even if I have to walk there.
> Along the same vein...  a few years ago, I was asked to do a
cultural
> presentation of sorts to my daughter's class around Halloween.  I
decided to
> build "un altar" for El Dia de los Muertos.  When I asked my
parents about
> this custom, they said, " We don't do that.   Once we bury our 
dead, we go

The following site might also be helpful with info on "La Catrina":
http://www.azcentral.com/ent/dead/history/posada,html

nc

First, let me apologize for possibly misspelling the name - I didn't 
bother to double check - and still haven't. "La Catrina" is the calaca 
figure created by the artist Jose Guadalupe Posada; a female often 
depicted with a wide-brimmed hat trimmed with feathers, and wearing a 
blouse and skirt. You might try to google Jose Guadalupe Posada. (Note: 
please excuse missing accents - haven't memorized the rules.)
The following is the site for the Mexican Cultural Institute:
http://www.embassyofmexico.org/mci/news.htm
Hasta la proxima,

Natalie Coleman, VA

Rancho:

Un rancho es un asentamiento o lugar donde se establece una persona o 
una comunidad.

Rancho: es un lugar fuera de una poblacion donde se albergan varias 
personas.

Rancho: Granja donde se crian caballos, vacas y otros animales 
domesticos.

Hay ranchos dedicados a la Agricultura y otros a la Ganaderia.

I hope this helps.

John Gonzalez
Wildomar, CA
S.W. Riverside County 

I don't remember "celebrating" this holiday as a youngster (in the 
40's & 50's), either. And it is only in the last 10-15 yrs that I 
have been exposed to this custom.
In the past two years the Smithsonian has had public programs for 
DDLM, (one day affairs) with music (strolling mariachi), dance, 
displays, and crafts.
The Mexican Cultural Institute (Washington, DC), in the building that 
formerly housed the Embassy of Mexico, have hosted a DDLM exhibit the 
past 3 yrs - with a magnificent altar in their blue & white tiled sun 
room, reception, and music. Last year there was even a woman dressed 
as La Catrina.
About 6 or 7 yrs ago I began putting up an altar in my yard (then 
moved it to the porch). I would put it up a day or two before 
Halloween - so trick or treaters would get an education when they 
came for their treats. I deviated from the standard of remembering 
and honor family members by remembering friends and family who had 
died in the previous 12 months - I would just post a list. I got a 
lot of ideas online on how to set it up. It has evolved over the 
years. Now my two oldest grand-children (ages 5 & 3) look forward to 
helping me set up the altar. As they grow older maybe they will have 
an understanding of honoring the antepasados.
Thanks to all for sharing the cemetery memories - very informative.
Happy Fourth! * * * (fireworks!)

Natalie

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the ranchos 
group.

  File        : /ZZZ Group Management/Updating Genealogy Files 
  Uploaded by : makas_nc <makas@...> 
  Description : Monthly reminder 

You can access this file at the URL:
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To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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Regards,

makas_nc <makas@...>
 

You're welcome, Maria..."puesto" is a way of saying "place".  I think it's sort of a neutral word.  At least that's how I understand it.

David Delgado  in Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: readysetgo95814 <nena@...>
Sent: Jul 1, 2005 11:43 PM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Re: What is a Rancho???

<html><body>


<tt>
David,<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the explanation.&nbsp; I had been wondering about the <BR>
term &quot;Estancia&quot;.&nbsp; I've also seen &quot;Estanzuela&quot; and I would guess it <BR>
derived from the word &quot;Estancia&quot;?&nbsp; The other term I've come across <BR>
is &quot;Puesto&quot;.&nbsp; I picture that to be even smaller than a Rancho, but I <BR>
am not sure.&nbsp; I really haven't looked into it.&nbsp; Does anyone know?<BR>
<BR>
Maria Cortez<BR>
Elk Grove, CA<BR>
<BR>
--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, &quot;David P. Delgado&quot; &lt;dpdelgado@j...&gt; <BR>
wrote:<BR>
&gt; Joseph,<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; I think that the closest English equivalent of &quot;rancho&quot; is &quot;town&quot;.&nbsp; <BR>
The word town is as small and varied as the word &quot;rancho&quot;.&nbsp; A town <BR>
can be anything from a single dwelling to a formally organized group <BR>
of homes and families with formal organization.&nbsp; I think it's <BR>
important to keep in mind that some words in use today are holdovers <BR>
from long ago.&nbsp; For example, &quot;villa&quot; meant a community with at least <BR>
25 white european families as permanent residents.&nbsp; Permission had to <BR>
petitioned from the Spanish Crown to be granted such status.&nbsp; <BR>
A &quot;pueblo&quot; was a community in which biracial, white, and indigenous <BR>
people lived.&nbsp; A &quot;ranchería&quot; was a community of indigenous people <BR>
only (usually &quot;wild&quot;, i.e. unbaptized).&nbsp; The other term I have seen <BR>
while reading old documents is &quot;estancia&quot;.&nbsp; This last word refers to <BR>
a bivouac area.&nbsp; These terms and their meanings disappeared along <BR>

Hi Natalie,

I particularly enjoyed you posting because it reminded
me of my growing up years (I'm now 55).  Both my
parents were born in the U.S. Dad (3rd of 4
children)was born in New Mexico and his parents were
from Zacatecas (Sain Alto and Nochistlan~came to the
U.S. in 1910 and 1908 respectively).  My Mom (7th of 8
children) was born in California and her parents were
from Mocorito, Sinaloa, (they came to California in
1922).  My Dad's side of the family seemed to
incorporate less meat and more fruits and vegetables
in their "much more simple" meals, where my Mom's
family routinely celebrated with the type of food you
have mentioned.  My family and my Mom's siblings and
their families all lived within a 20 mile radius of my
grandparents home and each Sunday (and all holidays)
the entire family would get together for Sunday dinner
at my "Nana and Tata's" home.  This is where the food
you mentioned was commonly served (carnitas, frijoles
de olla, birria, cabeza, cesos, lengua, nopales,
capirotad). 

This is the food my cousins and I grew up on and still
enjoy when we can find it.  A couple of years ago my
husband and I were visiting one of my cousins, Danny
and his wife.  At the table I sat across from Danny
and my husband and Danny's wife were sitting across
from each other. Danny and I started talking about the
food we liked and we regressed into the past and
started talking about those family meals at my
grandparent's home.  After a few minutes we noticed
the faces my husband and his wife were making and we
began laughing.  We told them that they just weren't
as lucky as we had been.  Needless to say they didn't
quite agree with us.

Olivia Jaurequi-Reyes ~ So. Calif.

--- Natalie <nc_coleman@...> wrote:

> WOW! 300+ posts in June, and it is only July 2, and
> there are already 
> 31 posts! Bring it on!
> The food postings have been very interesting, and
> has caused me to 
> reflect on why I cook as I do. My father is my
> Zacatecas connection; 
> he came to the U.S. in 1916 as a 4 yr. old - his
> mother died when he 
> was 17 yrs. old, so I am sure she impacted his
> culinary tastes and 
> traditions. (My mother was born in Calif. - her
> mother was from 
> Mexico, but I don't know where; my mother was 5 yrs.
> old when her 
> mother died; I was almost 12 yrs. when my mother
> died. I remember her 
> as being a good cook - she made flour tortillas
> everyday, a skill I