Arturo,
I finally was able to bring up that letter of 1591 from the Viceroy Luis de Velasco to the King, but it has eight pages. It is beautifully written and so legible after all those years, but I have trouble reading that Spanish. In which of the eight pages is the mention of his visit to the caravan of the Tlaxcalan families?
Thanks,
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
Would there be someone who would volunteer to extract out (and perhaps even transliterate into modern Spanish) the census of the 400 Tlaxcalan families who migrated to the Gran Chichimeca?
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I still can't open the link
-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:27 PM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census
Would there be someone who would volunteer to extract out (and perhaps even transliterate into modern Spanish) the census of the 400 Tlaxcalan families who migrated to the Gran Chichimeca?
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Maria,
I just sent you the .pdf file to your e-mail address. It will take a while to load unless you have a fast connection. Plus your computer needs to be able to open .pdf files.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Maria Cortes
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census
I still can't open the link
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Got it thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Emilie Garcia
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:34 PM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census
Maria,
I just sent you the .pdf file to your e-mail address. It will take a while to load unless you have a fast connection. Plus your computer needs to be able to open .pdf files.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Maria Cortes
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census
I still can't open the link
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TRASLATION TO englisH down
COLECCION DE DOCUMENTOS PARA LA HISTORIA DE SAN LUIS POTOSI
CUENTA POR SUS NOMBRES (CENSO) DE LOS INDIOS DE TLAXCAL QUE VINIERO A POBLAR ENTRE LOS CHICHIMECAS
EN EL RIO DE SAN JUAN (HOY SAN JUAN DEL RIO QUERETARO)EL 6 DE JULIO DE 1591, AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA VILLABICENCIO, TENIENTE DE CAPITAN GENERAL PARA LAS NUEVAS POBLACIONNES DE CHICHIMECAS DEL EXCELENTISIMO SEÑOR DON LUIS DE VELASCO, CABALLERO DE LA ORDEN DE SANTIAGO, VIRREY, GOBERNADOR, CAPITAN GENERAL DE ESTA NUEVA ESPAÑA, PRESIDENTE DE LA REAL AUDIENCIA... ANTE MI EL NOTARIO, DIJO:
QUE EL GOBERNADOR, ALCALDES Y PRINCIPALES (CACIQUES) DE LA CIUDAD DE TLAXCALA OFRECIERON AL SEÑOR VIRREY 400 INDIOS CASADOS VECINOS Y ORIGINARIOS DE DICHA CIUDAD(TLAXCALA), PARA CON ELLOS HACER (FUNDAR) DICHAS POBLACIONES (LAS NUEVAS POBLACIONES DE LOS CHICHIMECAS), LOS CUALES SALIERON Y SE DIVIDIERON EN 4 "CUADRILLAS DE CARROS"? CON SUS MUJERES E HIJOS EN DICHA CIUDAD (SAN JUAN DEL RIO)DONDE HABIAN DE ENTREGARSE
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Here is a slightly different English translation .... hope it makes sense
... original is below
Collection of documents of the history of San Luis Potosi.
Recorded by names (census) of the Tlaxcal Indians that came to settle with
the Chichimecas.
In El Rio de San Juan (today San Juan del rio Queretaro) on the 6th of July
of 1561, Agustin de Hinojosa Villabicencio, Lieutenant of Captain-General
for the new settlement of Chichimecas of his Excellency Luis de Velasco,
Knight of the Order of Santiago, Viceroy, Governor, Captain General of New
Spain, President of the Real Audencia… Before me the notary said: That the
governor, mayors and elders (chiefs) of the city of Tlaxcala offered Senor
Virrey 400 married Indians all original citizens of said city (Tlaxcala),
for the establishment of said settlement (the new Chichimeca settlement),
who left and were divided into 4 wagon groups with their women and children
in said city (San Juan del Rio) where they were supposed to deliver
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Thank you Miguel for taking on the transciption of this very important document and thank you Angela for such a beautiful and clear translation.
Now we just need some additional volunteers to transcribe the list of names...
Please members, think of all that you get from this community and if you have some time to spare, please consider giving a bit of it back for the sake of the community.
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When you start looking at the actual listing of the names on the 1591 San Juan del Rio census you will run into two interesting words/phrases:
"iten"
"con un y hijo"
We need to decide what these two items refer to. I have gotten a few possible clues sent via email to me. Thanks to Luis Garcia, Patricia Sanchez Rau and Gregory Schaaf
yten = tambien [ditto]
itencopa = by word or command of
ihuan = y [and]
itehuan = nosotros [us]
iten = a la orrilla de [on the edge of]
I'm also wondering if what we have come to accept as common misspellings of Spanish names might not have been deliberate spellings to indicate an indigenous background. For example, from the 1692 Census of El Paso del Norte we see the following "misspelled" names: Lazaro, Mizquia, Ynigo, Xiron, Jacintha, Xptobal, Ysidro, Ysabel, Luxan, Luxero, Xaramillo and Truxillo.
Maybe these spellings are a clue that we need to follow up on possible Tlaxcalan ancestors.
Stanley A Lucero
Madera, California
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Angelina Markle has volunteered to head up the transcription and transliteration of the Tlaxcalan 400 Families Census. If you would like to help, please contact her through the contact form available at the Nuestros Ranchos website:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/user/2396
In reference to Stanley's questions about the word "iten" and name spellings:
"iten" was a common word used in lists of people, chattle, etc. in these older documents and has the first meaning presented by Stanley, i.e. "tambien." The etymology of the English word "item" is the same as this word. It would be the equivalent of a bullet point in our modern day...
The "common misspellings" are not misspellings at all. You have to remember that this document was written in 1591, long before the Castillian language had been chosen as the lingua franca of New Spain and long before Castillian spelling was standardized. Thus the spelling is the spelling of those names as the scribe saw fit, probably from his own
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The Diccionario panhispánico de dudas by Real Academia Española states that the words dixo (dijo) o traxo (trajo) were pronounced [dísho] o [trásho]. The change in pronunciation from "SH" to "J" started in the 16th century and was common in mid-17th century. This also means that the "SH" sound wasn't limited to Catalan and Basque.
3. En la Edad Media, la grafía x representaba un sonido palatal fricativo sordo, cuya pronunciación era muy similar a la de la sh inglesa o la ch francesa actuales. Así, palabras como dixo (hoy dijo) o traxo (hoy trajo) se pronunciaban [dísho] o [trásho] (donde [sh] representa un sonido parecido al que emitimos cuando queremos imponer silencio). Este sonido arcaico se conserva en el español de México y de otras zonas de América en palabras de origen náhuatl, como Xola [shóla] o mixiote [mishióte] (no en Xochimilco, en donde la x suena como /s/), y en la pronunciación arcaizante de ciertos apellidos que conservan su forma gráfica antigua, como Ximénez o
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Dear Group,
After three years of searching with no evidence of my grgrandfather Rosalio Onate's existence other than a 1917 visit to the US through the border crossing, I thought I'd try something I've done before with no results: Google! Lo and behold two entries from http://www.ags.gob.mx/archivo/fondo/fondo_historico.asp dating 1927 and 1932 show what appears to be business entries. However, I can't seem to get beyond those entries and find out whether it was posted by the city or state government, and how to access the complete petition/request forms. Has anyone in the group accessed this source. Since the 1930 Aguascalientes, Ags. census is not available, at least these entries told me that he was alive and still in business in 1932. Any help from anyone would be appreciated. Alice BB
> _________________________________________________________________________________________
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I wasn't able to open up the letter. Can you help me find it?
I should be able to read it.
Stanley A Lucero
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Stanley,
Yes, I couldn't open the link from Arturo's post either at first; it would say "Timed out", etc.
If you just enter the URL only as far as httP://pares.mcu.es then you can go to "Busquedas Sencillas, then type in "Virrey Luis de Velasco, Hijo" and the dates as From 1591 to 1591, it will bring up some choices. Choose Cartas Del virrey Luis de Velasco (etc), and then look for the letter that is numbered N 53 in that list and click on it. It brings up nine images of a letter that is beautifully hand-written in old Spanish. It is very legible, but I don't understand the language and some of the abbreviations.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: stanley.lucero@comcast.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 10:49 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalans in Zacatecas
I wasn't able to open up the letter. Can you help me find it?
I should be able to read it.
Stanley A Lucero
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I can make out most of the words. Many of the words are grouped together as one word instead of separated. The words are also spelled differently from what we are used to.
See the bottom of page 4.
Los indios de Tlaxcala, quen la ... cartas ...dise que ..van
Page 5
apartandose para yr a las poblausnoes de los chichimecas, caminan ya, ya ivan 10 cho dias que sali cinco leguas de la ciudad averlos ya aminarlos y haceles prover de todo lo nessario. Van en todo lo que yo les he podido bien acomadados y parese que ya van de su gusto y ... leega Dios tenga estemedio tan aprovado y pedido de todos el sucesso que se disea y aungue siempre que la dificultal deber todos Indios y los chichimecos tan baruaros que con los unos y los otros no puede a ver entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es aver hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, y hasta qui ay de tantos anos a esta parte asido tan de part.toso, ..mito los buenos efectos a Dios que los puede dar, que como en ...
Stanley A Lucero
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Arturo,
Thanks for bringing up this interesting letter to us. I went through the same paragraphs that Stanley and Emily referred to, and transcribed them into modern Spanish for those who have difficulty reading old Spanish. The paragraph about the Tlaxcalans reads as follows:
Original transcription:
"Los indios de Tlaxcala, quen las ultimas cartas q' scrivii a VMd dise que estavan aprestandose para yr a las poblacioes de los chichimecas, caminan ya, y aura ocho dias que sali cinco leguas desta Ciudad averlos y a animarlos y hacerles prover de todo lo nessario. Van en todo lo que yo he podido bien acomodados y parese que ya van de su gusto y voluntad Plega Dios tenga este medio tan aprovado y pedido de todos el sucesso que se dessea y aunque siempre que da la dificultad de ser todos Indios y los chichimecos tan barvaros que con los unos y los otros no puede aver entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es aver hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, q' hasta aqui y de tantos
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Thank you so much, Bill. Now we can really enjoy that letter. I am going to try and print it out and keep it with your translations.
It is interesting to me that the Chicimecas, who I thought the mestizos in Zacatecas like my father were descended from, are described as "barbaros". That is the term I find in records of my Christianized Piro/Manso/Tiwa ancestors from Paso del Norte and other mission villages to describe the Apaches who raided and massacred them from time to time until the US Army captured their last chiefs and brought them under control in 1886.
I read that the Pueblo tribes are a Uto-Aztecan people, and I can see that because they were found by Onate to already be wearing clothes and settled in adobe pueblos with stone kivas that reminded me somewhat of way the pyramids in Mexico were constructed. The Apaches had never made pottery, or farmed or built adobe pueblos or stone kivas. I was told that the Tewa Pueblo at Taos has been continually occupied for over
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I invite you to visit my website at www.lucerito.net. Click on the Genealogy tab and then on the Tlaxcalan link.
I wrote a short article entitled "Tlaxcalans in New Mexico" that was published in Nuestras Raices out of Pueblo, Colorado. Marc Simmons was one of my main sources of information.
I am continueing to search for more information about the Tlaxcalans. Some of the offshoots include the places they colonized, los matachines, Seven Caves - Seven Tribes, Tonatiuh - the Sun Stone, the 400 families, etc.
I'm also working with Gregory Schaff from Santa Fe to develop materials for the New Mexico public schools regarding their indigenous history. The materials will be offered free of charge to the schools.
What started all of this was my discovery that my ancestor, Juan de Leon Brito, was a Tlaxcalan Indian. He was the son of Juan Brito and Antonia Ursula Duran, 1st marriage to Sebastiana Madrid. 2nd marriage to Maria Granillo. I have several ancestors from San Gabriel del
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As Lucero points out, the census was July 6, 1591 and it was taken at San Juan del Rio, Queretaro by Agustin de Hinojosa Villavicencio. There is a great history of this initial migration and the subsequent migrations of the descendants of those first 400 families further north into Texas:
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Gregory Schaaf, Ph.D., Director, Center for Indigenous Arts & Cultures, Santa Fe; Indians@nets.com
Stanley Lucero and I are working on a Tlaxcalteca Chronology, Tlaxcalteca Biographical Profiles, and a Tlaxcalteca Bibliography for a free, non-profit educational website for school children. Please feel free to submit entries and we will let you know when the site gets posted.
Regarding the current discussion on Tlaxcalans in Zacatecas, here is one entry from the chronology:
June 6-9, 1591 – The Tlaxcalan Indians began their migrations northward from villages around Tlaxcala de Xicohhtencatl An estimated 1008 Tlaxcalan Indians from 400 families, organized by 5 captains began a trek northward. The Tlaxcalan Indians initially weree composed of four groups from their four hometowns, but then were re-organized into six groups to go to six destinations:
*On June 6, approximately 228 Tlaxcalan Indians from Lordship of San Francisco Ocotelulco [site of the largest Mercado [marketplace] in
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The 1591 census of the 400 Tlaxcalan families that colonized the Gran Chichimeca appears in a book titled Documentos para la historia de San Luis Potosi and is downloadable in the Files Section at:
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I count not open this file it gave me an error message.
-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 11:27 PM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census 1591
The 1591 census of the 400 Tlaxcalan families that colonized the Gran Chichimeca appears in a book titled Documentos para la historia de San Luis Potosi and is downloadable in the Files Section at:
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Maria Cortes wrote " I count not open this file it gave me an error
message."
At first I had the same problem ...However, I found that you had to be
logged onto Nuestros Ranchos first - then the link works without any
problems.
-Angelina-
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I tried to open it from within (logged) Nuestro Ranchos pages and still getting the error.
-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Angelina Markle
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:36 AM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census 1591
Maria Cortes wrote " I count not open this file it gave me an error
message."
At first I had the same problem ...However, I found that you had to be
logged onto Nuestros Ranchos first - then the link works without any
problems.
-Angelina-
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Thanks, Stanley,
I was interested because both my mother's (Marquez) and my father's (Olague) ancestors were in the Onate party. The Marquez stayed to settle, but the Olague abandoned Onate and returned to Zacatecas as soon as they could.
In all the early censuses I have from 1601 to 1693 about Paso del Norte, the Lower El Paso Valley (San Lorenzo, Senecu, Ysleta, Socorro), and the Spanish and Pueblo Indian settlements in New Mexico, I see those names you mention and others: Lucero, Baca, Brito, Cobos, Archuleta, Gongora, Isasi, Ladron de Guevara, Enriques, Tafoya, Holguin, Telles, Robledo, Madrid. I am a Madrid descendant as well as Apodaca, Candelaria, Garcia de Noriega, Lucero de Godoy, Maese, Mondragon, Perea, Saenz, Lujan, Xiron, Valencia, Granillo, Sedillo, Romero, Avalos, Varela, Duran, Pedraza, Fuentes, del Rio, Carabajal, Fresqui, Brusuelas, Tamaris, Delfin and others. My Provencios came later from Albacete in Spain.
Most of these early settlers had servants in their
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Incorrect Spelling is only a relatively new idea. In the 1600's it was understood that you may write a word with a slight variation without changing the meaning. Most people could not read and write and those that did, were not concerned with only one spelling.
------Original Message------
From: stanley.lucero@comcast.net
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalans
Sent: Jan 28, 2010 1:26 PM
When you start looking at the actual listing of the names on the 1591 San Juan del Rio census you will run into two interesting words/phrases:
"iten"
"con un y hijo"
We need to decide what these two items refer to. I have gotten a few possible clues sent via email to me. Thanks to Luis Garcia, Patricia Sanchez Rau and Gregory Schaaf
yten = tambien [ditto]
itencopa = by word or command of
ihuan = y [and]
itehuan = nosotros [us]
iten = a la orrilla de [on the edge of]
I
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Tlaxcalan Census