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Steven; I read your entry with interest. What you said and the examples you gave are more typical with what I have found. It takes alot of detective work and patience. Like you, I have never ever seen man just take his wife name as his own. Jose Macias
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Hector : I too have seen the examples that you give. I was asking Angie where she read, "but couldn't remember where" she may have read about that the husband would change his name to his wife's. It seems logical the way she explained it, I just don't remember seeing it. When a woman comes in to have the child baptised and she uses her own last name because the the child was "hijo Natural de". Is it possible that that is the case when I see "hijo legalmente de Juan Iniguiz and luisa Iniguiz" ? Angie brought a very good point and I guess that they could do anything they wanted when the child was born. It is just that I haven't seen a case where it was done. If a grandfather was of a higher cast, I wonder if they would not be hesitant to have the son-in-law take their surname. By what right? A surname was very important then and not to be tifled with. Amoung the lower classes it didn't matter I must guess, if at all. I found Angies comments and others really enlightening. I thank Angie for telling us that. I just have't seen the example that she gave. Jose Macias
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I just thought I would add my own 2 cents worth
here......If you are tracing any ancestors into the
States, keep in mind that "name switching" may in fact
be in play. Custom in the U.S. is that Mario Sanchez
Garcia is in fact Mario Garcia. I have seen this
numerous times. In fact, I know of a common day
situation in which there is an individual named Jose
Chavez Munoz that came to the States and has had to
conform to this custom because some Authority figure
told him his name was Jose Munoz and not Jose Chavez.
He was forced to marry under the name of Munoz because
that is what all his legal documents said his name
was. His children are now Munoz - Not Chavez.
Joseph, as for the name Maldonado I have only seen it
spelled with "de" and with an "ñ". Good luck!
-Esther
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Wow, I did not realize this would be such a hot topic!
Now as far as a husband adopting his wife's surname as his own, I have NEVER, ever seen this happen. I all my time as a researcher, historian, and genealogist, since 1992, I have not seen this phenomenon.
Now it may be the case where the children, even the males, like has been said adopt their mother's surname. So the child of, for example, José Sánchez and María Pérez, Juan Sánchez Pérez, goes by Juan Pérez more than Juan Sánchez. Thus Juan Pérez will marry and have children that become Pérez, thus abandoning their true paternal surname, Sánchez. But what I've never seen happening is that José Sánchez would adopt his wife's surname, Pérez as his own. That would be unheard of.
Traditionally, and this has been a long-standing tradition, women keep their own surname all their lives, even after marriage. To continue using the previous fictitious couple, José Sánchez and María Pérez, had they lived 175-350 years ago, María Pérez would have been María Pérez, from the cradle to the grave. But as María Cortez quite accurately pointed out, traditions indeed change. Nowadays, our María Pérez's name would change after she married. She would be called María Pérez de Sánchez, to show she's married to a Sánchez. And there was a time when this was done even in the old days, so there was a time of slowly changing traditions and naming patterns; a time when there was an overlapping of naming traditions.
In regard to the example that María Cortez offered concerning the Franco de Paredes...well...it's a bit off. The paternal name was Pérez. And he man did not change or add onto his own surname that of his wife. It all happened once upon a time when Alonso Pérez Torillo, son of Andrés Pérez and María Torillo, natives of Huelva, decided to marry. Alonso Pérez married Luisa de Paredes y Franco de Montoya (aka Luisa Franco de Paredes). Luisa was born in May 1632 in Silao, Guanajuato, and was the daughter of Blas de Paredes and Ana María Franco de Montoya. Blas and Ana's children would go on to adopt either Paredes, Franco de Paredes, or Franco de Montoya. As a matter of fact, one of Blas and Ana's sons, Pedro Franco de Paredes (Luisa's brother), would become the progenitor of the Franco lineage of Los Altos de Jalisco. His descendants would later adopt Franco as their primary surname, when in fact Franco came from their matriarch. Strictly speaking, Paredes is their paternal surname.
The children of Alonso Pérez Torillo and Luisa Franco de Paredes (Pedro's sister), would change the surnames once again. Their various children became Pérez Franco and Pérez de Paredes. Sometimes for some reason, various members would be known as either X. Pérez Franco, X. Pérez de Paredes on another occasion, X. Franco on yet another day, and even X. de Paredes. The same person would go by various names. Nowadays they are the Pérez clan of Los Altos. And yes, I have been contributing greatly to the next edition of Mariano González Leal's book, "Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia," which will consist of an estimated 10 volumes, and due for publication in 4 to 5 years. So far Don Mariano is at the letter "G", as he is doing a detailed history of Alteño (from Los Altos) surnames in alphabetical order.
Since the last time I posted, I remembered another example of someone whose name changed constantly, and even the surname was inconstant for a generation or two. This would be my own ancestor, my 3-great-grandfather, Victor Saldaña-Arévalo. It all started as I was researching from our present times going backward. My great grandfather's name was José Hernández, born in Arandas on 8 Apr 1885, "hijo legítimo de Cruz Hernández y Navora Arévalos. Abuelos paternos: Francisco Hernández y Jesús Sánchez. Abuelos maternos: Victor Arévalos y Josefa Zaldaña." I also consulted their marriage record, also in Arandas, 29 May 1882, which stated that "Cruz Hernández, soltero, de Diez y ocho años de edad, originario y vecino de esta Villa, hijo legítimo de Francisco Hernández y María Jesús Sánchez, que viven; con María Navor Arévalos, célibe, de Diez y nueve años de edad, originaria y vecina de este lugar, hija legítima de Victor Arévalos, que vive, y Josefa González, difunta." Upon further research of Victor and Josefa, which now had two surnames both Saldaña and González, I could find nothing, neither marriage nor children.
Then out of curiosity I started to "fish around" for their children. I indeed found my own ancestress, María Nabora, baptized in Arandas, on 16 Jul 1854, "hija legítima de Victor Saldaña y María San José Gonsáles; abuelos paternos, Juan [Saldaña] y Petra Barajas; maternos, Juan [González] y Catarina López..." And my first question was what happened to Arévalo? And now Victor went from being Arévalos to being Saldaña, or vice versa, since I was researching going backward. But still I did not find their marriage.
Well, Victor and Josefa's oldest son was born in March 1849, so I began searching backward from this date in search of their marriage. What I found was not what I was expecting, to say the least. "Victor Orozco con María San José González" were married in Arandas on 8 Jan 1847. Orozco? OROZCO????? That one just totally blind-sided me. I read on. "Victor Orozco, soltero, de veinte y un años de edad, originario y vecino del Ballado, de esta feligrecía, hijo natural de Francisco Orozco y María Petra Barajas, que viven; cón María San José González, celibe de Diez y ocho años de edad, originaria y vecina del Terrero de esta feligrecía, hija legítima de Nepomuceno [sic, Juan] González, difunto, y María Catarina López, viva..." So far every thing matched...for the most part. Maternal grandmother: Petra Barajas--SAME. María de San José González later shortened her name to Josefa (because of the José in her middle name). But in all the baptism records of Victor and Ma. de San José I had that the paternal grandfather was Juan Saldaña and in the marriage it was Francisco Orozco. And Victor was an "hijo natural" which would contribute to his lack of personal identity, or rather identity crisis. I had found the baptism of Ma. de San José González, and no problem on that lineage.
But for the longest time, I could not find anything on Victor Arévalos, Saldaña, or Orozco, or whatever the heck he was. I would later realize that I wasn't looking good enough or hard enough. When I found Victor's marriage in 1847, he said he was 21, and Ma. de San José was 18 years old. I right away found her baptism in 1828. I went backward from that date, and found nothing. I then went forward again looking from 1826, until.........there it was all along.
José Victor Arévalo (Saldaña) Barajas was born on Friday, 27 Jul 1827, in El Ballado, Arandas, Jalisco, México. He was baptized eight days later on Sunday, 05 Aug 1827, in the Parroquia Santa María de Guadalupe, Arandas, Jalisco. His baptism record literally reads as follows:
"Vayado. Jocé Victor. ----- En Arandas a sinco de Agosto de ochocientos veinte y ciete: yo el Bachiller Don Guiyermo López cura interino bauticé a Jocé Victor de ocho días de nacido en el Vayado, hijo de María Petra Arébalos, Abuelos Maternos, Manuel Arébalos y Guadalupe id. Padrinos, Ynocencio Xaso y Felipa Quirós, a quienes advertí lo prevenido, y lo firmé . . . Guillermo López [rúbrica]."
His baptism record is in Vol. # 23 (26 Jul 1826-03 Sep 1828), Folio No. 128 frente. Microfilm Baptisms 1824-1828, Arandas, Jalisco, # 0279533.
He was in fact an hijo natural, no doubt about that. But who was his father, Francisco Orozco or Juan Saldaña? That required some true deductive reasoning and detective work. It turns out that Francisco Orozco was in fact married to Petra Barajas-Arévalos, but they were married in 1841, when Victor was already 14 years old. What happened was that Francisco Orozco adopted Victor as his son, and for a while Victor used his stepfather's surname. Besides, Francisco Orozco could not have been Victor's true father, even if he did engender him prior to his marriage with Petra Arévalo. I know who Francisco's parents are, and when he was born, 1814. In 1827, when Victor was born, Francisco was 13 years old!! A bit too young, I reckon, to be a dad. Petra was a ripe 30 years old.
His father was in fact Juan Saldaña. There was a Juan Saldaña born and married in Atotonilco el Alto, to a Josefa Barajas in 1821. I first I thought it might be him but, he never left Atotonilco and had children up to and past 1827. Not the one.
But there was another Juan Saldaña, this was born in Arandas, and lived there all his life and lived in some of the same ranchos as Petra Arévalos, so there was motive and opportunity. "Juan José Ramón" was baptized in Arandas, on 2 Jul 1799 "hijo legítimo de José Manuel Saldaña y de María Guadalupe Barajas, Españoles; Abuelos Paternos, José Antonio Saldaña y Ana María Gómes; Abuelos Maternos, Ygnacio Barajas y Josefa García [Pérez]..."
So in summary, my ancestor was born as "José Victor Arévalos", hijo natural of Petra Arévalos. His natural father was Juan Saldaña. Victor changed his name to Victor Orozco, and changed his name again to Victor Saldaña, most likely upon coming of age and learning who his real father was. Victor Saldaña would often go back to being Victor Arévalo. His children would later refer to him as both Victor Saldaña, but mostly as Victor Arévalo.
Talk about changing name patterns. This example is that of the primary reason why children decide to use their mother's surname, because the mother and father never married. Arnoldo García so far has given the best explanation yet.
Equally, there's my two cents.
Steven F. Hernández
Now as far as a husband adopting his wife's surname as his own, I have NEVER, ever seen this happen. I all my time as a researcher, historian, and genealogist, since 1992, I have not seen this phenomenon.
Now it may be the case where the children, even the males, like has been said adopt their mother's surname. So the child of, for example, José Sánchez and María Pérez, Juan Sánchez Pérez, goes by Juan Pérez more than Juan Sánchez. Thus Juan Pérez will marry and have children that become Pérez, thus abandoning their true paternal surname, Sánchez. But what I've never seen happening is that José Sánchez would adopt his wife's surname, Pérez as his own. That would be unheard of.
Traditionally, and this has been a long-standing tradition, women keep their own surname all their lives, even after marriage. To continue using the previous fictitious couple, José Sánchez and María Pérez, had they lived 175-350 years ago, María Pérez would have been María Pérez, from the cradle to the grave. But as María Cortez quite accurately pointed out, traditions indeed change. Nowadays, our María Pérez's name would change after she married. She would be called María Pérez de Sánchez, to show she's married to a Sánchez. And there was a time when this was done even in the old days, so there was a time of slowly changing traditions and naming patterns; a time when there was an overlapping of naming traditions.
In regard to the example that María Cortez offered concerning the Franco de Paredes...well...it's a bit off. The paternal name was Pérez. And he man did not change or add onto his own surname that of his wife. It all happened once upon a time when Alonso Pérez Torillo, son of Andrés Pérez and María Torillo, natives of Huelva, decided to marry. Alonso Pérez married Luisa de Paredes y Franco de Montoya (aka Luisa Franco de Paredes). Luisa was born in May 1632 in Silao, Guanajuato, and was the daughter of Blas de Paredes and Ana María Franco de Montoya. Blas and Ana's children would go on to adopt either Paredes, Franco de Paredes, or Franco de Montoya. As a matter of fact, one of Blas and Ana's sons, Pedro Franco de Paredes (Luisa's brother), would become the progenitor of the Franco lineage of Los Altos de Jalisco. His descendants would later adopt Franco as their primary surname, when in fact Franco came from their matriarch. Strictly speaking, Paredes is their paternal surname.
The children of Alonso Pérez Torillo and Luisa Franco de Paredes (Pedro's sister), would change the surnames once again. Their various children became Pérez Franco and Pérez de Paredes. Sometimes for some reason, various members would be known as either X. Pérez Franco, X. Pérez de Paredes on another occasion, X. Franco on yet another day, and even X. de Paredes. The same person would go by various names. Nowadays they are the Pérez clan of Los Altos. And yes, I have been contributing greatly to the next edition of Mariano González Leal's book, "Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia," which will consist of an estimated 10 volumes, and due for publication in 4 to 5 years. So far Don Mariano is at the letter "G", as he is doing a detailed history of Alteño (from Los Altos) surnames in alphabetical order.
Since the last time I posted, I remembered another example of someone whose name changed constantly, and even the surname was inconstant for a generation or two. This would be my own ancestor, my 3-great-grandfather, Victor Saldaña-Arévalo. It all started as I was researching from our present times going backward. My great grandfather's name was José Hernández, born in Arandas on 8 Apr 1885, "hijo legítimo de Cruz Hernández y Navora Arévalos. Abuelos paternos: Francisco Hernández y Jesús Sánchez. Abuelos maternos: Victor Arévalos y Josefa Zaldaña." I also consulted their marriage record, also in Arandas, 29 May 1882, which stated that "Cruz Hernández, soltero, de Diez y ocho años de edad, originario y vecino de esta Villa, hijo legítimo de Francisco Hernández y María Jesús Sánchez, que viven; con María Navor Arévalos, célibe, de Diez y nueve años de edad, originaria y vecina de este lugar, hija legítima de Victor Arévalos, que vive, y Josefa González, difunta." Upon further research of Victor and Josefa, which now had two surnames both Saldaña and González, I could find nothing, neither marriage nor children.
Then out of curiosity I started to "fish around" for their children. I indeed found my own ancestress, María Nabora, baptized in Arandas, on 16 Jul 1854, "hija legítima de Victor Saldaña y María San José Gonsáles; abuelos paternos, Juan [Saldaña] y Petra Barajas; maternos, Juan [González] y Catarina López..." And my first question was what happened to Arévalo? And now Victor went from being Arévalos to being Saldaña, or vice versa, since I was researching going backward. But still I did not find their marriage.
Well, Victor and Josefa's oldest son was born in March 1849, so I began searching backward from this date in search of their marriage. What I found was not what I was expecting, to say the least. "Victor Orozco con María San José González" were married in Arandas on 8 Jan 1847. Orozco? OROZCO????? That one just totally blind-sided me. I read on. "Victor Orozco, soltero, de veinte y un años de edad, originario y vecino del Ballado, de esta feligrecía, hijo natural de Francisco Orozco y María Petra Barajas, que viven; cón María San José González, celibe de Diez y ocho años de edad, originaria y vecina del Terrero de esta feligrecía, hija legítima de Nepomuceno [sic, Juan] González, difunto, y María Catarina López, viva..." So far every thing matched...for the most part. Maternal grandmother: Petra Barajas--SAME. María de San José González later shortened her name to Josefa (because of the José in her middle name). But in all the baptism records of Victor and Ma. de San José I had that the paternal grandfather was Juan Saldaña and in the marriage it was Francisco Orozco. And Victor was an "hijo natural" which would contribute to his lack of personal identity, or rather identity crisis. I had found the baptism of Ma. de San José González, and no problem on that lineage.
But for the longest time, I could not find anything on Victor Arévalos, Saldaña, or Orozco, or whatever the heck he was. I would later realize that I wasn't looking good enough or hard enough. When I found Victor's marriage in 1847, he said he was 21, and Ma. de San José was 18 years old. I right away found her baptism in 1828. I went backward from that date, and found nothing. I then went forward again looking from 1826, until.........there it was all along.
José Victor Arévalo (Saldaña) Barajas was born on Friday, 27 Jul 1827, in El Ballado, Arandas, Jalisco, México. He was baptized eight days later on Sunday, 05 Aug 1827, in the Parroquia Santa María de Guadalupe, Arandas, Jalisco. His baptism record literally reads as follows:
"Vayado. Jocé Victor. ----- En Arandas a sinco de Agosto de ochocientos veinte y ciete: yo el Bachiller Don Guiyermo López cura interino bauticé a Jocé Victor de ocho días de nacido en el Vayado, hijo de María Petra Arébalos, Abuelos Maternos, Manuel Arébalos y Guadalupe id. Padrinos, Ynocencio Xaso y Felipa Quirós, a quienes advertí lo prevenido, y lo firmé . . . Guillermo López [rúbrica]."
His baptism record is in Vol. # 23 (26 Jul 1826-03 Sep 1828), Folio No. 128 frente. Microfilm Baptisms 1824-1828, Arandas, Jalisco, # 0279533.
He was in fact an hijo natural, no doubt about that. But who was his father, Francisco Orozco or Juan Saldaña? That required some true deductive reasoning and detective work. It turns out that Francisco Orozco was in fact married to Petra Barajas-Arévalos, but they were married in 1841, when Victor was already 14 years old. What happened was that Francisco Orozco adopted Victor as his son, and for a while Victor used his stepfather's surname. Besides, Francisco Orozco could not have been Victor's true father, even if he did engender him prior to his marriage with Petra Arévalo. I know who Francisco's parents are, and when he was born, 1814. In 1827, when Victor was born, Francisco was 13 years old!! A bit too young, I reckon, to be a dad. Petra was a ripe 30 years old.
His father was in fact Juan Saldaña. There was a Juan Saldaña born and married in Atotonilco el Alto, to a Josefa Barajas in 1821. I first I thought it might be him but, he never left Atotonilco and had children up to and past 1827. Not the one.
But there was another Juan Saldaña, this was born in Arandas, and lived there all his life and lived in some of the same ranchos as Petra Arévalos, so there was motive and opportunity. "Juan José Ramón" was baptized in Arandas, on 2 Jul 1799 "hijo legítimo de José Manuel Saldaña y de María Guadalupe Barajas, Españoles; Abuelos Paternos, José Antonio Saldaña y Ana María Gómes; Abuelos Maternos, Ygnacio Barajas y Josefa García [Pérez]..."
So in summary, my ancestor was born as "José Victor Arévalos", hijo natural of Petra Arévalos. His natural father was Juan Saldaña. Victor changed his name to Victor Orozco, and changed his name again to Victor Saldaña, most likely upon coming of age and learning who his real father was. Victor Saldaña would often go back to being Victor Arévalo. His children would later refer to him as both Victor Saldaña, but mostly as Victor Arévalo.
Talk about changing name patterns. This example is that of the primary reason why children decide to use their mother's surname, because the mother and father never married. Arnoldo García so far has given the best explanation yet.
Equally, there's my two cents.
Steven F. Hernández
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Hello, I see a lot of explanations for this " naming pattern". I know in some cases that I have personally seen,
i.e. A. father does'nt marry the mother - the son/daughter will decide to carry the mothers name.
B. father abandons mother and family - children decide to carry mothers name instead of fathers.
C. father committs a crime - Family decides to carry mothers name instead, to avoid stigma in society
D. father has mulitiple children out of wedlock - mother and/or children decide to carry maternal name.
E. even if father comes back to claim children, mother and or children will not permit name change, back or to fathers name.
F. Might not be fathers fault at all
G. Maybe influential parents, Grandparents registered the child with out the fathers permission in the maternal name and not the parental, for what ever the reason might be.
H. I know of one instance that the maternal parents only had one daughter, and no sons, so that the maternal name woul go on, the father agreed to have one son's name be that of the mothers, so the maternal name could go on. the father having many brothers and his parents name would go on.
Just some general comments.
Arnoldo Garcia
Jose Macias <usa20@...> wrote:
Angie; Though I can see the logic of what you say you may have read, I have never seen this to be the case in taking the surname of the wife.
As you know, the child of Hector Garcia and Rosa Mendez would be for example Carlita Garcia Mendez. I have never seen a man change his name to Hector Mendez. It is not true in Mexico, Central America or South America, is it true maybe in Spain or Portugal ? A family name is very important and I have never seen a case where a man would change his surname to that of his wife's father. I wonder where you read this ? Traditionally the woman keeps her maiden name in that way even after marriage.
I know about the variations in the spelling of names. I have seen some very strange attempts to spell Indian names by phonetics.
Anyway, I found your entry very enlightening and will remember to keep it in mind as I look over the records from now on. If you will tell me where you have seen this practice, it would help me very much.
Jose L. Macias
----- Original Message -----
From: aajay1073
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 3:12 PM
Subject: [ranchos] Re: Naming Patterns
I read somewhere, {and I can't remember where, but I tried looking
for my source for this information}, that if the wife's family was of
a higher status or surname was 'better' {in using measurements during
that time period}, then the males in the family took the wife's
surname which would then pass to their children. And the females
took the husband's surname which would get passed to their children
as the secondary surname.
In terms of mispellings or spelling variations. Again, I read
somewhere, the person recording the name tended to be more educated
then the general people. Therefore, it would have been 'beneath' him
to ask how to spell a name to someone who was less educated them he.
The ability to read and write was not wide spread, but more than
likely even those people who did know how to write, were probably
still not asked the correct way to spell their name.
just me two
cents...
Angie
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Thank you for your input. I hadn't thought about the changes in tradition. thank you. I can see the logic. I was just saying that I had never seen it in the names that I had researched. I wonder how you can tell if that had happened. Like I said, I had never heard of it and have never seen it in practice in the northern hemisphere. But I am doing the 1800's and that is why. I hope that here is a respone Jose
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Angie; Though I can see the logic of what you say you may have read, I have never seen this to be the case in taking the surname of the wife. As you know, the child of Hector Garcia and Rosa Mendez would be for example Carlita Garcia Mendez. I have never seen a man change his name to Hector Mendez. It is not true in Mexico, Central America or South America, is it true maybe in Spain or Portugal ? A family name is very important and I have never seen a case where a man would change his surname to that of his wife's father. I wonder where you read this ? Traditionally the woman keeps her maiden name in that way even after marriage. I know about the variations in the spelling of names. I have seen some very strange attempts to spell Indian names by phonetics. Anyway, I found your entry very enlightening and will remember to keep it in mind as I look over the records from now on. If you will tell me where you have seen this practice, it would help me very much. Jose L. Macias
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