Linda:

I got some persepective on this issue from Mssrs. de la Torre Berumen 
and Valdes Salazar while I was down in Mexico.

Apparently, soon after the Mexican independence, President Vicente 
Guerrero (who was mulatto) decreed that all Spaniards be expelled from 
Mexico.  In reality, many were exempted but certainly all of those who 
had been loyalists during the war of independence and those that had 
royal ties (since Mexico was now a republic) were expelled.

Those Spanish families that remained became weary of being labeled 
Spanish and particularly loyalists or royalists and thus those 
with "composed names" such as "Carlos y Godoy" or "Fernandez de Jara 
Quemada" quickly dropped parts of their names to mexicanize them.  I 
think it was somewhat arbitrary which parts they dropped.

On a similar note, I would appreciate hearing any perspectives people 
may have about how children chose whether to take on the mother's 
family name vs. the father's family name.  I have run across many 
instances, particularly in the 17th century where children of the same 
family took on different names, i.e. some siblings took on the father's 
name "Covarrubias" and other siblings in the same family took on the 
mother's name "De La O" so you have siblings with different last names.

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Erlinda Castanon-Long" 
<longsjourney@y...> wrote:
>
> I'm hoping you can help me with double surnames.  Is there a 
> difference when they use De or Y? Such as Alvares del Castillo or 
> Ochoa y Garibay?  How long did they usually keep the double surname?  
> I haven't found a reason why some families ended up using the surname 
> they chose.. Villasenor y Jaso, some went Villasenor and others went 
> Jaso.. same family!
> 
> I have gone from records in Tamazula Jalisco to Chilchota Michoacan.  
> So many families from that part of Jalisco came from this area of 
> Michoacan in the later 1700's.  In doing marriage records from there 
> I'm finding it not unusual to have the actual marriage in the home of 
> a family member, was that normal for the mid 1750's?
> Linda in Everett
>

Erlinda:

The whole Chicano vs. Mexican-American vs. Latin@ vs. Hispanic debate 
is a very contentious one in the United States.  I think that all of 
those terms are very politically laden such that there is no single 
one that everyone would agree with.  There is an interesting episode 
where the renowned author Sandra Cisneros balked at being featured in 
Hispanic magazine because of such a disagreement.  She agreed only 
after the magazine agreed to show her on the cover in a profile shot 
with a fake tatoo reading "LATINA" across her arm.

There is an interesting article on this:

http://www.hispanicmagazine.com/2000/dec/Features/latino.html

I suppose that if you want to designate descendancy from peoples of 
Mexico, Mexican or Mexican-American would be the most precise.  I 
will leave my commentary at that lest I get myself in trouble.

Interesting thing though, I have run across documents where the 
indigenous peoples of the area around Colotlan and Totatiche would 
refer to the indigenous colonizers from the south (Tlaxcaltecs, 
Otomis and Huastecs) as "mexicanos" designating that they spoke the 
Mexican language (i.e. nahuatl) and they did not consider themselves 
as such, since they spoke a different (Tepehuan) language.  One of 
these references appears in an interview with one of the last 
tepehuan speakers in Azqueltan, Jalisco in 1912!

I think that the term Mexican to designate all of the ethinicities of 
Mexico was probably not adopted until after independence.  I imagine 
that those of pure Spanish descent would not consider themselved 
Mexican before that, especially when the term specifically refered to 
the nahuatl-speakers of central Mexico.


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Erlinda Castanon-Long" 
<longsjourney@y...> wrote:
>
> I want to thank everyone for the input on double surnames and y 
versus 
> de... I had forgotten that I use a double surname too!  I felt I 
> didn't want to give up my Hispanic maiden name so just hyphenated 
it 
> with my married name.  That makes me Castanon-Long, I guess in 
Latin 
> America that would make me Castanon y Long ... I found at the 
family 
> reunion that most of my female cousins from my generation did the 
> same.  Many of us did not marry Hispanic but would have kept our 
> maiden name regardless. Just like someone said, it's a matter of 
> family pride..
> 
> One more question.. which is 'politically' correct to designate our 
> nationality of origin if we or our ancestors were from Mexico... 
> Hispanic, Latino, Mexican-American or American-Mexican?  I find I 
> really upset some people when I call myself Hispanic. I'm told that 
> excludes my Indio blood... People ask me what my nationality is 
> because I'm just brown enough to not be Anglo but have light green 
> eyes, my sister get's the same thing and she has blue eyes and 
> freckles. I still laugh when told I don't look like a Mexican... 
what 
> does a Mexican look like!!!!
> 
> Linda in Everett
>

Emilie and all,

I've been enjoying your messages and agree with you about identifying 
myself as Mexican.  My 25 year-old son said it best when he told one 
of his friends that his parents were both Mexican, so that makes him 
Mexican.  He is pretty Americanized, but still appreciates his 
Mexican culture.  He doesn't define himself by his ethnicity, but 
that doesn't mean he isn't proud of it.

Emilie, I chuckled at your comment about Aztlan.  I'll have to 
remember to ask if it's south, east, north or west of Atlantis next 
time I hear it.

Maria

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia" <auntyemfaustus@h...> 
wrote:
>
> Linda,
> 
> When some Anglo says "you don't look Mexican" it means that you 
don't look like his idea of Mexicans formed by most of the Mexicans 
he has seen---field or orchard workers, very dark, made darker by the 
sun, very small due to their mostly Indian blood, pitch black hair 
and eyes, poorly dressed, not too clean due to their constant labor 
in dirty places.  You probably speak English without an accent, too.
> 
> When asked a question by an Anglo and I don't respond instantly, 
inevitably comes the next question, "Do you speak English?"  Most 
people in the Southwest and California "know" that I am "Mexican"; I 
look "typically" Mexican, but the Asian cast to my eyes throws people 
who are more familiar with Filipinos, Native Americans, Pacific 
Islanders, Thai, etc. such as up here in the Northwest.
> 
> When asked what I am, I say I am Mexican and Native American (in 
Mexico, I am a Mestiza or Morena).  When asked by a Latin American in 
Spanish "eres Latina?", I say "Si, soy Mexicana".  When I travel, I 
am always taken as whatever dark skinned ethnicity they have in 
whatever country or state (Hawaii, Alaska, Italy, Spain) I happen to 
be in.  In foreign countries I tell them I am American (I was born in 
Colorado).  In Spain, they insist I am Mexican, not American, no 
matter where I was born.
> 
> I agree with Arturo below that if our ancestors came from Mexico, 
then we should say we are Mexicans.  I can say I am also Native 
American because I am Piro-Manso-Tewa (Pueblo tribes) on my mother's 
side.  My father said he was a Mestizo Mexicano born in Jerez.  I 
also think that since there is no country known as Chicana, we don't 
have to call ourselves Chicanos.  (I don't like the term either, 
maybe because I associate it with those that don't want to 
acculturate).  As for Aztlan, they might as well tell me about the 
mythical Atlantis, though I believe there was one continent that 
everyone in the world descends from, since all the creation stories 
sound so similar.  They can call me Hispana or Latina, but I will say 
that I am Mexican.  There is no land called Hispana or Latina.  There 
is Espana, Mexico, Italia, Deutschland, France, etc., and our 
ancestors came from Mexico, so we are Mexicanas.  
> 
> My husband identifies himself as Mexican, and he is often taken for 
Anglo or "Spanish".  Some Anglos think it is politically correct to 
call him "Castillian Spanish", since they think that Mexicans with 
white skin are really Castillian Spanish and not Mexican, but like 
his sister says, no, there is Spain and there is Mexico, and their 
ancestors came from Mexico, no matter what they look like.  Also 
Castillian is a language and not an ethnicity.  The people in Spain 
though identify themselves as Madrileno, Pamplonico, Sevillano, 
Vasco, Castellano, etc., since they are very provincial, and the 
provinces have their own languages as we found out when we went there 
and thought that everybody would speak Castillian.
> 
> For those of us born or living here permanently, we should consider 
ourselves as American as the blacks here are, though like them and 
the Native Americans we suffer from racism.  I believe one reason we 
have so many Mexican immigrants here is that the racism in Mexico 
that keeps people down, unable to rise above their station.  We are 
also getting more acculturated here.  Of my many first cousins, only 
two have married Anglos, but all of their children have married 
Anglos.  America is becoming more and more changed, more racially 
integrated and mixed, and though the Neo-Nazi skinhead says he hates 
it, he still stops by Taco Bell and has himself a taco. He does not 
realize he has lost the war. Without our people the Anglos couldn't 
afford an apple, a lettuce, or dinner out at a nice place.  We shall 
overcome.
> 
> Emilie Garcia
> Port Orchard, WA ----
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Peggy Delgado<mailto:peggydee@c...> 
>   To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com> 
>   Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:46 PM
>   Subject: RE: [ranchos] Re: double surnames
> 
> 
>   Linda, I get something like that when asked what nationality I 
am.....one time at my work's cafeteria, a man approached me and 
asked, "Excuse me, what are you, from India?  Oh no, I got it, you're 
polynesian...you look so exotic! (not sure whether he was flirting or 
not)"....so I'm just staring at him and I said, "No, I'm Mexican-
American...."  I said this with a proud smile on my face.  He looked 
shocked.  He was like "No, you couldn't be Mexican....are you mixed 
with something else?"  At that point, I gave this pest my 
famous "raised eyebrow" and a smirk, turned and walked away.  Now 
mind you, I don't know what people mean when they say, "you don't 
look Mexican"....I just chalk it up to peoples ignorance.  
> 
>   Peggy
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: ranchos@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Arturo Ramos
>     Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:56 AM
>     To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
>     Subject: [ranchos] Re: double surnames
> 
> 
>     Erlinda:
> 
>     The whole Chicano vs. Mexican-American vs. Latin@ vs. Hispanic 
debate 
>     is a very contentious one in the United States.  I think that 
all of 
>     those terms are very politically laden such that there is no 
single 
>     one that everyone would agree with.  There is an interesting 
episode 
>     where the renowned author Sandra Cisneros balked at being 
featured in 
>     Hispanic magazine because of such a disagreement.  She agreed 
only 
>     after the magazine agreed to show her on the cover in a profile 
shot 
>     with a fake tatoo reading "LATINA" across her arm.
> 
>     There is an interesting article on this:
> 
>     
http://www.hispanicmagazine.com/2000/dec/Features/latino.html<http://w
ww.hispanicmagazine.com/2000/dec/Features/latino.html>
> 
>     I suppose that if you want to designate descendancy from 
peoples of 
>     Mexico, Mexican or Mexican-American would be the most precise.  
I 
>     will leave my commentary at that lest I get myself in trouble.
> 
>     Interesting thing though, I have run across documents where the 
>     indigenous peoples of the area around Colotlan and Totatiche 
would 
>     refer to the indigenous colonizers from the south (Tlaxcaltecs, 
>     Otomis and Huastecs) as "mexicanos" designating that they spoke 
the 
>     Mexican language (i.e. nahuatl) and they did not consider 
themselves 
>     as such, since they spoke a different (Tepehuan) language.  One 
of 
>     these references appears in an interview with one of the last 
>     tepehuan speakers in Azqueltan, Jalisco in 1912!
> 
>     I think that the term Mexican to designate all of the 
ethinicities of 
>     Mexico was probably not adopted until after independence.  I 
imagine 
>     that those of pure Spanish descent would not consider 
themselved 
>     Mexican before that, especially when the term specifically 
refered to 
>     the nahuatl-speakers of central Mexico.
> 
> 
>     --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Erlinda Castanon-Long" 
>     <longsjourney@y...> wrote:
>     >
>     > I want to thank everyone for the input on double surnames and 
y 
>     versus 
>     > de... I had forgotten that I use a double surname too!  I 
felt I 
>     > didn't want to give up my Hispanic maiden name so just 
hyphenated 
>     it 
>     > with my married name.  That makes me Castanon-Long, I guess 
in 
>     Latin 
>     > America that would make me Castanon y Long ... I found at the 
>     family 
>     > reunion that most of my female cousins from my generation did 
the 
>     > same.  Many of us did not marry Hispanic but would have kept 
our 
>     > maiden name regardless. Just like someone said, it's a matter 
of 
>     > family pride..
>     > 
>     > One more question.. which is 'politically' correct to 
designate our 
>     > nationality of origin if we or our ancestors were from 
Mexico... 
>     > Hispanic, Latino, Mexican-American or American-Mexican?  I 
find I 
>     > really upset some people when I call myself Hispanic. I'm 
told that 
>     > excludes my Indio blood... People ask me what my nationality 
is 
>     > because I'm just brown enough to not be Anglo but have light 
green 
>     > eyes, my sister get's the same thing and she has blue eyes 
and 
>     > freckles. I still laugh when told I don't look like a 
Mexican... 
>     what 
>     > does a Mexican look like!!!!
>     > 
>     > Linda in Everett
>     >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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