Ranchos 2

face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>

Can I be invited to the ranchos 2 group as well.  While it is true
that I don't respond often to the various mailings (I am very active during the
school year), I do try to stay in touch with the readings and various
postings.  However, for some obscure reason (assuming that I did not
register for ranchos 2 group), I am not able to enter the ranchos 2 group.

 

So, I assumed that I did not remember (the memorypause stuff again) my
password, and I am once again confused.

 

Esperanza

"hija natural" vs added name of man-general question

I have seen both Dolores and Maria used as men's names
on many records.  Often Maria comes from the given
name Jose Maria  My great-great grandfather's given
name was Jose Dolores.  His marriage record shows that
he used only Dolores when he married my great-great
grandmother.  

--- zendean <usa20@...> wrote:

>  
> Fellow searchers;
>   I have encountered some thing strange in my
> extraction film. I know that "hija natural" means
> that the child has no father. But at times there is
> an man's name written in below the child's name in
> the bapised child list, but not in body of the
> narrative where the names of the parents is listed.
> In your experience, does this mean that the father
> was named , but does not acknowledge that child ?
> Additionally, I sometimes find names for the father
> listed as "Dolores" or "Maria Isvaldo" or
> "Yldlesterialde Isabel". Is that a name for a man ?
> I have never met a man named Dolores but at times a
> woman is named Juan Jesus. Is there a better formula
> than if the name ends in "o"= boy or "a"=girl ? The
> child is either "Hija" or Hijo". the times that I
> have trouble is when the name is not clear and the
> parish father puts "hn" or "hl", in those cases I
> can't tell the gender.  
> Also, at times the parent is listed as "Jesus
> Montenegro or Juan Eliso Montenegro". Do you know if
> that may be the name of a father who took the baby
> to be baptised and didn't name the mother ?  
>  Also, Some fathers write Ysabel and Ysidro . I
> wonder if a Capital "I" was written to look like  a
> "Y" when is  a capital in script/caligraphy or if it
> spelled that way in Gualtamala.  Just asking my
> friends here in the site.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Jose Luis macias
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Victor Villarreal <vela_este@...>
> Sent: Jun 22, 2005 8:11 AM
> To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [ranchos] Re: Question mark
> 
> Hello John,
> 
> Try the following instructions: 
> 
> "Click Start, Settings, Control Panel, Regional and
> Language Options. Click the Language(s) tab. In Win
> XP, click Details, then Add. Choose an Input
> language
> (English United States) and a Keyboard Layout
> (International English). Use Apply to finish the
> process; the Windows installation CD may be needed."
> 

&quot;hija natural&quot; vs added name of man-general question

To add to Victor's comments: I saw a baptismal record in which the body of the form did not include the biological father's name.  The child was identified as "natural".  At the end of the record I saw a sentence in which someone (presumably) the priest wrote that so-and-so had admitted to being the father of the child.  Human nature is frail at times and many rules are seriously bent.  I have also read that priests were very scarce in many of the mission areas.  The priest could show up to marry and baptize once or twice a year.  ometimes once in two or three years.  The absence of a priest did not prevent couples from joining their lives and bearing children.  Thus since the church did not wish to upset people it developed the term "hijo/a natural".  These children were not considered illegitimate although in many church records you will find entries testifying that a father accepted a child as legitimate.  This made it possible for the hijo natural to enjoy whatever inheritance without losing a legal challenge.

My memories of my language studies are that the "Y" was not necessarily a capital letter.  Rather it was the "Greek i" ( i griega).  This letter was used whenever the sound of "i" appeared first in a word.  For example there is no syntactical requisite to capitalize the first letter of the word "indio".  In that case the Greek i was used but not as a capital letter.  Every 50 years or so the Royal Academy of the Spanish language would write new rules to regulate the language.  The scholars were apparently obsessed with the "right" way of dojing things.  Communication was so slow in the past that it might take several generations for a mandated change to actually become common practice.  

Racial Classifications

I wish to add a few comments.  Freedom of expression also includes freedom of using the delete button.  There are many things in this existence which cannot be changed.  Yet mature adults discuss them because of another gift of the creator- intellectual curiosity.  Iagree that so long as folks are respectful of one another good can come of speaking about a subject that might make others uncomfortable.  I would hate to see open-ness stifled.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Villarreal <vela_este@...>
Sent: Jun 23, 2005 8:08 PM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Re: Racial Classifications

<html><body>


<tt>
No need to be sad, Carol.<BR>
<BR>
It is understandable that talking about these topics related to race <BR>
can be considered tabu.&nbsp; But we all are mature persons, tolerant of <BR>
each other, and I haven't read any personal insult or something that <BR>
reflects ill will in any message.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
On the contrary, it can be a learning experience to bring historical <BR>
facts into the open so we learn the painful mistakes of our ancestors <BR>
and avoid stumbling with the same blocks in our time.<BR>
<BR>
Well, this is just my opinion.&nbsp; If Joseph thinks we should not <BR>
mention any of this I will respect his wish.<BR>
<BR>
Victor<BR>
<BR>
--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Carol Lester &lt;NanaCarolL@p...&gt; wrote:<BR>
&gt; I think it is so very sad that people can spend so much <BR>
time &quot;talking&quot; about something they cannot change...and perhaps if we <BR>
would read the Word of God and apply His principle of &quot;seeing each <BR>
other as HE sees us, there would never be an on-going conversation <BR>
such as is taking place with the Ranchos group.&nbsp;&nbsp; As one very <BR>
wise &quot;human&quot; was paraphrased once long ago..&quot;me thinks you all <BR>
protest too much...&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; Come on, really, what does it matter anyway?&nbsp; <BR>
My final thought...love yourself; because you were created in the <BR>
IMAGE of a living GOD...and I garantee all of you, He knew exactly <BR>
what HE was doing when He made us.&nbsp; He doesn't make junk...we do.&nbsp; As <BR>

Racial Classifications

face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>

My two cents:

 

I am heartened to hear the perspectives of those that have different
experiences than I did, and I am glad to continue my learning of our
raza from their pain and various
"readiness/awareness" stage.  While I am not the moderator, I would
hope that this venue continues to provide a safe environment for sharing
personal history.

 

Esperanza

Racial Classifications

No need to be sad, Carol.

It is understandable that talking about these topics related to race 
can be considered tabu.  But we all are mature persons, tolerant of 
each other, and I haven't read any personal insult or something that 
reflects ill will in any message.  

On the contrary, it can be a learning experience to bring historical 
facts into the open so we learn the painful mistakes of our ancestors 
and avoid stumbling with the same blocks in our time.

Well, this is just my opinion.  If Joseph thinks we should not 
mention any of this I will respect his wish.

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Carol Lester <NanaCarolL@p...> wrote:
> I think it is so very sad that people can spend so much 
time "talking" about something they cannot change...and perhaps if we 
would read the Word of God and apply His principle of "seeing each 
other as HE sees us, there would never be an on-going conversation 
such as is taking place with the Ranchos group.   As one very 
wise "human" was paraphrased once long ago.."me thinks you all 
protest too much..."   Come on, really, what does it matter anyway?  
My final thought...love yourself; because you were created in the 
IMAGE of a living GOD...and I garantee all of you, He knew exactly 
what HE was doing when He made us.  He doesn't make junk...we do.  As 
for the DNA?....HE MADE THAT TOO!!!    
> 




Racial Classifications

I think it is so very sad that people can spend so much time "talking" about something they cannot change...and perhaps if we would read the Word of God and apply His principle of "seeing each other as HE sees us, there would never be an on-going conversation such as is taking place with the Ranchos group.   As one very wise "human" was paraphrased once long ago.."me thinks you all protest too much..."   Come on, really, what does it matter anyway?  My final thought...love yourself; because you were created in the IMAGE of a living GOD...and I garantee all of you, He knew exactly what HE was doing when He made us.  He doesn't make junk...we do.  As for the DNA?....HE MADE THAT TOO!!!    

-----Original Message-----
From: Emilia <auntyemfaustus@...>
Sent: Jun 23, 2005 7:48 AM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Racial Classifications

I just found an answer as to why, when my husband and I have roots in 
Mexico going back to the early 1700's, he and I look so different.  
In message #277 Steven Francisco Hernandez Lopez says "most people 
will eiher have a lot of Inidan, Mestizo, or Mulato line, or very 
little to one at all---all the surnames and families that I have so 
far posted----were of the Spanish Hidalgo class".

I recall some of these names being in my husband's family, and his 
aunt in Mexico City told me that his family on both sides, had never 
mixed with Indians.  To furter quote Steven: "Intermarriage was very 
uncommon---to do so would be to kill all chances of opportunity for 
your children and descendants for all time".  My husband's ancestors 
were always merchants, business owners or government officials."  
Mine were always "farmers" or "laborers".

So now there is a new term for me to wonder about;  The Hidalgo 
Class.  Is this where the term "Don" came from?  Many of my ancestors 
in the Juarez area on my mother's side had the title Dn. or Da., and 
they were always described as Espanol.  I just thought the Dn. and 
Da. described a landowner, a hacienda owner who didn't work, only 
managed his properties. Were they of the Hidalgo Class?  I see 
entries in records for children born in their homes that had "padres 
incognitos" but were "expuesto en la casa de Dn--y--Da.X".  I guess 
there was a never-ending supply of servants and workers that way.

Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA




 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 




________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet

&quot;hija natural&quot; vs added name of man-general question

Jose Luis,

About "hija natural" or "hijo natural" I've always known that it 
meant a child born out of wedlock not that the child has no father.
I've seen baptisms records of "hijos naturales" where both parents 
are listed.

Identifying the gender that corresponds to a particular name can be 
tricky and there's not a single answer that applies to every case.  
We would have to take a look at the actual manuscript film to 
decide.  A rule of thumb is that the father's name is always listed 
first.

Regarding the use of "Y" versus "I" in names such as Ysabel or 
Ysidro, you have to realize that back in the old days there were no 
standard grammar rules and whatever rules there were I think the 
priests applied them at their own discretion.  The older the 
documents you look at the wider variability you will find in their 
caligraphy/script.

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, zendean <usa20@e...> wrote:
>  
> Fellow searchers;
>   I have encountered some thing strange in my extraction film. I 
know that "hija natural" means that the child has no father. But at 
times there is an man's name written in below the child's name in the 
bapised child list, but not in body of the narrative where the names 
of the parents is listed. In your experience, does this mean that the 
father was named , but does not acknowledge that child ? 
Additionally, I sometimes find names for the father listed 
as "Dolores" or "Maria Isvaldo" or "Yldlesterialde Isabel". Is that a 
name for a man ? I have never met a man named Dolores but at times a 
woman is named Juan Jesus. Is there a better formula than if the name 
ends in "o"= boy or "a"=girl ? The child is either "Hija" or Hijo". 
the times that I have trouble is when the name is not clear and the 
parish father puts "hn" or "hl", in those cases I can't tell the 
gender.  
> Also, at times the parent is listed as "Jesus Montenegro or Juan 
Eliso Montenegro". Do you know if that may be the name of a father 
who took the baby to be baptised and didn't name the mother ?  
>  Also, Some fathers write Ysabel and Ysidro . I wonder if a 
Capital "I" was written to look like  a "Y" when is  a capital in 
script/caligraphy or if it spelled that way in Gualtamala.  Just 
asking my friends here in the site.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Jose Luis macias
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Victor Villarreal <vela_este@y...>
> Sent: Jun 22, 2005 8:11 AM

&quot;hija natural&quot; vs added name of man-general question

 
Fellow searchers;
  I have encountered some thing strange in my extraction film. I know that "hija natural" means that the child has no father. But at times there is an man's name written in below the child's name in the bapised child list, but not in body of the narrative where the names of the parents is listed. In your experience, does this mean that the father was named , but does not acknowledge that child ? Additionally, I sometimes find names for the father listed as "Dolores" or "Maria Isvaldo" or "Yldlesterialde Isabel". Is that a name for a man ? I have never met a man named Dolores but at times a woman is named Juan Jesus. Is there a better formula than if the name ends in "o"= boy or "a"=girl ? The child is either "Hija" or Hijo". the times that I have trouble is when the name is not clear and the parish father puts "hn" or "hl", in those cases I can't tell the gender.  
Also, at times the parent is listed as "Jesus Montenegro or Juan Eliso Montenegro". Do you know if that may be the name of a father who took the baby to be baptised and didn't name the mother ?  
 Also, Some fathers write Ysabel and Ysidro . I wonder if a Capital "I" was written to look like  a "Y" when is  a capital in script/caligraphy or if it spelled that way in Gualtamala.  Just asking my friends here in the site.

Thank you,

Jose Luis macias

-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Villarreal <vela_este@...>
Sent: Jun 22, 2005 8:11 AM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Re: Question mark

Hello John,

Try the following instructions: 

"Click Start, Settings, Control Panel, Regional and
Language Options. Click the Language(s) tab. In Win
XP, click Details, then Add. Choose an Input language
(English United States) and a Keyboard Layout
(International English). Use Apply to finish the
process; the Windows installation CD may be needed."

Read the instructions on how to switch or select keyboard layouts.  
You can select also which one you prefer as the default layout.

Let us know if you need any other help!

Victor


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "John Gonzalez" <1gnzlz@v...> wrote:
> Hi:
> 
> I don't know what version of Windows other people are using.  I am 
using Windows XP Home Edition and when I press the Alt+? I get 
nothing, just a pleasent little sound. I tried both Alt keys.
> I am sticking with Alt+168, it hasn't failed me yet!  As far as the 
exclamation symbol is concerned, I just do it the old fashion way: 

Mexican racism

Armando, I had no idea that the peoples of Los Altos were considered 
elitist... you see the first Gutierrez record I've found for my 
Gutierrez family says they are from Los Haciendas de los Altos, 
Jalisco and registered the birth in Atoyac.  Guess they came by the 
attitudes from way back... Many people think of racism as one sided 
but like you, I know first hand that discrimination comes from both 
sides of the street..

Linda



light and dark skin in Mexico

I find it interesting that after 500 years we Mexicans are still 
trying to explain our skin color.
My maternal grandmother was poor as a church mouse but was very 
proud of her white skin and my mothers blond hair and blue eyes, 
they were from Jalisco.  My fathers family was from Zacatecas, 
darker skinned with Mestizo blood lines.  When my father married my 
mother my maternal grandmother was very upset because he was dark 
skinned.  Her first question when babies were born was always "what 
color are they."  It's no wonder with this background as a child 
raised in a color concious California when people told me I 
didn't "look" like a Mexican I was proud, not something I am proud 
of now... As I grew up and learned the history of my genealogy I 
learned to take pride in all that I am and not the color of my skin, 
and now when someone askes me what nationality I am and they say the 
usual "you don't look like a Mexican" I always respond, "What does a 
Mexican look like?"  I also understand how that happened to my 
grandmother and her intentions in wanting to keep the family light 
skinned.  Life is harder with more life lessons when your skin is 
dark regardless of your origins.  In Mexico and the U.S we are a 
society that favors light skin.  The true value of forums like this 
group is to regain the pride that our immigrant ancestors had taken 
away from them because they were "different" regardless of skin 
color.

Like Emilie I live in Washington and there are times where I am told 
I am the only Mexican they have ever met!  I can't change the 
attitudes of the world but I can change opinions one person at a 
time by my behavior, sense of pride and sharing the knowledge I'm 
learning about my Mexican roots.  I undertook this quest when my 
grandson called a Tortilla a little pizza!

Thank you to all who've shared opinions and information on this 
issue.

Linda



Racial Classifications

Here is another link:

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/RG/guide/WLSpanis19.asp#racial_te
rminology

So......according to the link above:
Coyote = Spanish (1/2), Indian (3/8), and Negro (1/8)

I doubt the science was ever that accurate.  As someone mentioned 
earlier, I imagine, it had more to do with your complexion and your 
parents complexion.  Besides someone who is a farmer is going to get 
more sun then someone who owns a hacienda.  They might have the same 
amount of Spanish and Indian blood but one is going to be classified as 
Espanol and the other will be classified as Mestizo.  Plus who could 
keep up when someone who was Coyote married someone who was mestizo or 
lobo, etc...

Just my two cents...
Angie



Joseph's DNA

Thanks!
> 
> From: "Victor Villarreal" <vela_este@...>
> Date: 2005/06/23 Thu PM 12:14:47 EDT
> To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [ranchos] Re: Joseph's DNA
> 
> 


Literally, it means "cat instead of bear", but the original saying

is "gato por liebre", which would be "cat instead of hare".



Back in the old times, when people used to eat hares, rabbits and

what not, you had to watch out that you were not sold a cat for a

hare, as they would look about the same after taking the skin off and

cut the meat into pieces.



Does it make sense? 





--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, <peggydee@c...> wrote:

> Excuse my lack of knowing the spanish language (shame on my

parents!), but what does the term "gato por oso" mean?

> >

> > From: "Emilie Garcia" <auntyemfaustus@h...>

> > Date: 2005/06/23 Thu AM 12:59:21 EDT

> > To: <ranchos@yahoogroups.com>

> > Subject: [ranchos] Joseph's DNA

> >

> > So, Joseph,  I couldn't make out a thing on your DNA results.  I

guess I am a surumata.  So, are you in the haplogroup for African-

Black or for Moroccan-Berber?  What other haplogroups are you in? 

All those numbers scared me.  How could I ever explain such a thing

to my cousin?  Maybe the researchers are handing us a gato por oso?

> >

> > EmilieGet more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download :

http://explorer.msn.com

> >

> >







Joseph's DNA

Literally, it means "cat instead of bear", but the original saying 
is "gato por liebre", which would be "cat instead of hare".

Back in the old times, when people used to eat hares, rabbits and 
what not, you had to watch out that you were not sold a cat for a 
hare, as they would look about the same after taking the skin off and 
cut the meat into pieces.

Does it make sense?  


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, <peggydee@c...> wrote:
> Excuse my lack of knowing the spanish language (shame on my 
parents!), but what does the term "gato por oso" mean?
> > 
> > From: "Emilie Garcia" <auntyemfaustus@h...>
> > Date: 2005/06/23 Thu AM 12:59:21 EDT
> > To: <ranchos@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [ranchos] Joseph's DNA
> > 
> > So, Joseph,  I couldn't make out a thing on your DNA results.  I 
guess I am a surumata.  So, are you in the haplogroup for African-
Black or for Moroccan-Berber?  What other haplogroups are you in?  
All those numbers scared me.  How could I ever explain such a thing 
to my cousin?  Maybe the researchers are handing us a gato por oso?
> > 
> > EmilieGet more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : 
http://explorer.msn.com
> > 
> >




Joseph's DNA

Excuse my lack of knowing the spanish language (shame on my parents!), but what does the term "gato por oso" mean?
> 
> From: "Emilie Garcia" <auntyemfaustus@...>
> Date: 2005/06/23 Thu AM 12:59:21 EDT
> To: <ranchos@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [ranchos] Joseph's DNA
> 
> So, Joseph,  I couldn't make out a thing on your DNA results.  I guess I am a surumata.  So, are you in the haplogroup for African-Black or for Moroccan-Berber?  What other haplogroups are you in?  All those numbers scared me.  How could I ever explain such a thing to my cousin?  Maybe the researchers are handing us a gato por oso?
> 
> EmilieGet more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
> 
> 

Name Calling

Wow, all these words make me feel at home! 

-----Original Message-----
From: Alberto Duarte [mailto:albertodua@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 2:59 PM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ranchos] Re: Name Calling

My wife is from Los Altos, Jalisco, and she uses both words when she is mad.

Alberto.

--- John Gonzalez <1gnzlz@...> wrote:

> I've heard "tarugo"  and "tarado".  Tarugo as in
> "como eres tarugo"   Not being very smart,  almost
> like "como eres menso".  Tarugo, tarado, and menso are used in about 
> the same context.
> I know, I've been called all three at different times!
> 
> John
> 
> 1gnzlz@...
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: latina1955@... 
>   To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 2:26 PM
>   Subject: Re: [ranchos] Re: Name Calling
> 
> 
>   "Tarayata" sounds linked to "taragua" which I was often called 
> because I was considered lazy when I was younger - I simply didn't 
> enjoy doing the household chores while my brothers were out playing 
> :).  Perhaps the "tara" portion is the relationship in a similar base 
> language, which be in this area of discussion!
> 
>   Esperanza
> 
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ranchos/
>       
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     ranchos-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> Service.
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com 


 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 



Racial Classifications was Moorish or Slave

Irma,well said.

Next time you talk to your spanish friends, ask them
to send back all the gold they stole from Mexico (just
kidding).

Alberto.

--- Irma GomezLucero <igomezlucero@...> wrote:

> Hi Emilie,
>     I have been enjoying alll of the recent postings
> on racial
> classification.  Excuse me for now jumping onto the
> soapbox.  :)  I hope
> that I don't offend anyone from what I am about to
> say.  I just don't like
> hearing ignorant racist remarks about Indians,
> Mexicans, etc., and people
> who feel superior to other ethnic groups.  Your
> Spanish friend sounds like
> someone with low self-esteem, (as well as possibly
> uneducated) and in that
> she feels that she should distance herself from
> those that she perceives as
> inferior to herself.  Heaven help her poor Mexican
> American husband that has
> to hear such racist comments.  
>     The Spanish I met in Spain when I travelled
> there are nothing like those
> immigrants from Spain or South America that I have
> sometimes encountered
> here in the USA.  They do not view people from
> Mexico like a bunch of
> Indians.  In fact, they often remarked about
> Mexico's riches both in the
> Indian Civilizations as well as the gold that their
> churches are filled
> with.  They were very warm people who would comment
> on how handsome Pedro
> Infante was when they saw him in concert in their
> youth.  Also how the
> foolish Spanish king really screwed up when he
> underestimated the strength
> in the Mexican people during Mexico's independance. 
> 
>     Remember to stand tall.  Just a side note to
> your Spanish friend.
> Garbanzos which are a staple for humans in Spain
> (they  are often served in
> Basque dishes) are often fed to livestock in Mexico.
>  Please educate your
> South American friend too by informing her that Taco
> Bell is not authentic
> Mexican food.  I am extremely proud of all my
> bloodlines whether it be
> India, mestizo, mulata, espanola, etc.,
>     Okay I'll step down now.   Thanks for allowing
> me to get this off my
> chest.
> Irma who hails from Northern California
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: Emilie Garcia
> [mailto:auntyemfaustus@...] 
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 3:41 AM
> To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com

Moorish or Slave

Comments:
I really don't believe 99% of the Mexican people know
their blood line(s)and/or the names of their
ancestors.

I've asked people from both sides (Mexico/US) if they
knew their blood lines or if they knew the names of
their great grandfathers, and most of them answered
"they didn't know."

As far as what was written on a baptism record,
regarding race type, I wouldn't put much believe in
it.

Alberto. 

--- Erlinda Castanon-Long <longsjourney@...>
wrote:

> In matters of race in the church records from Mexico
> I don't think the people being recorded had any idea
> what was being put in the record for nationality.  I
> have in one family, Mejia from the District of
> Jerez, 5 children with 4 different nationalities
> listed.  Mother is listed as Espanol, father is
> listed as Indio. Their children are listed as 1.
> Espanol, 2. Mulato, 3, Indio, 4 Mestiso and 5.
> Espanol... I have to assume some children were
> darker than others so the scribe made the decision
> what nationality they were making the records
> unreliable as to nationality.  Also it would be to
> the advantage of the family to have a child listed
> as Espanol so I wonder if bribes were ever paid to
> insure the record would read Espanol.. just a
> thought.
> Linda
> 
> Emilie Garcia <auntyemfaustus@...> wrote:
> Joseph,
>  
> I guess what I meant is that an African slave, to
> me, was one like the ancestors of the
> African-Americans and Negroes of Brazil.  In facial
> features and body type they look to me like the
> tribes found on the Ivory Coast or Gold Coast of
> Africa, and not like the North Africans (Ethiopians
> and Moroccans) that the Moors in Spain were
> descended from.  I heard of stories of Moors who
> came to the New World with the Conquistadores.  I
> didn't think they were slaves, more like indentured
> servants who could be freed.  I have seen the
> descriptions of people in the microfilmed records as
> Negro, Mulato, Mestizo, Coyote, and Yndio, but not
> in relation to anyone of my ancestors I could
> identify.  They were all (until 1821) identified as
> Espanol.  After 1821, there are no descriptions as
> to race.  In my family it is known that my mother's
> side had Piro Indian blood around her grand-father's
> time.  He was born around 1854, and my father told
> me that he was a Mestizo, even though he was not

Moorish or Slave

Esperanza,

Here's a link to a partial list of colonial caste system:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~mexcoahu/caste.html


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, latina1955@a... wrote:
> I could be wrong (my memory comes and goes with this stuff called 
menopause  
> - should be called memorypause), but I think coyote was a term used 
to 
> describe  the mixed blood of Indians and African.  
>  
> There was a chart (perhaps someone can recall it here?) that 
described the  
> various labels placed on the mixture of "races" during the early 
part of the  
> conquest, when race delineation was seen as important by the 
Spanish.  I'll  
> keep looking for this chart, but in the meantime, perhaps someone 
else on the  
> board has easy access to it for reference?
>  
> Esperanza



Racial Classifications

I just found an answer as to why, when my husband and I have roots in 
Mexico going back to the early 1700's, he and I look so different.  
In message #277 Steven Francisco Hernandez Lopez says "most people 
will eiher have a lot of Inidan, Mestizo, or Mulato line, or very 
little to one at all---all the surnames and families that I have so 
far posted----were of the Spanish Hidalgo class".

I recall some of these names being in my husband's family, and his 
aunt in Mexico City told me that his family on both sides, had never 
mixed with Indians.  To furter quote Steven: "Intermarriage was very 
uncommon---to do so would be to kill all chances of opportunity for 
your children and descendants for all time".  My husband's ancestors 
were always merchants, business owners or government officials."  
Mine were always "farmers" or "laborers".

So now there is a new term for me to wonder about;  The Hidalgo 
Class.  Is this where the term "Don" came from?  Many of my ancestors 
in the Juarez area on my mother's side had the title Dn. or Da., and 
they were always described as Espanol.  I just thought the Dn. and 
Da. described a landowner, a hacienda owner who didn't work, only 
managed his properties. Were they of the Hidalgo Class?  I see 
entries in records for children born in their homes that had "padres 
incognitos" but were "expuesto en la casa de Dn--y--Da.X".  I guess 
there was a never-ending supply of servants and workers that way.

Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA



&quot;tarayata&quot;

cool!!! Maybe Emilie's mom was South American. Emilie why not join the
Peruvian or Bolivian Rootsweb email groups or just post a message on
their message boards and ask what Tarayata means. You never know.



here's the URL for the Peruvian Message board:



http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=localities.southam.peru.general



joseph



latina1955@... wrote:

I just looked up "aymara" region, it appears to be a language
spoken by indigenous people in South America...hmmmm....I wonder, if
there were any "transplants" from South America to Mexico?