TEST SITE - DO NOT USE - Development only

Good morning,

Just got my mtdna results back, don't understand most of but my
female line is group A which is pre-Columbian, they take it back
30,000 years... guess we've been here a while! The A group extends
down into South America so our female Indio ancestor was native
born...  Our male ancestors may have been from Spain but they
married Native American women along the line.

This test does not show any of the women from our male lines, just
female to female so it doesn't prove our Espanol or Mulato blood but
the records prove that, so ...I'm happy just having a more complete
picture of our family tree. My proven female line is from Jalisco
Mexico.

Has anyone else in this group done the mtdna?

Linda from Wa.

HVR1 Haplogroup
A

HVR1 differences

from CRS
16111T

 
16223T

  16290T

  16319A

  16335G

  16362C

  16526A



  

Joseph:

I don't think that Padrinos were necessarily blood relatives.  I know 
that in my family, neither of my parents' padrinos are close 
relatives.  This is purely based on anecdotal evidence, but I think 
padrinos were often childhood friends, with which the parents had a 
close comeraderie or even respected members of the community (since 
traditionally, these would take in the child should he or she be 
orphaned, etc. and one would want the child to be well raised).

Given the prevelance of clusters of names (due to surnames often 
being assigned to indigenous people, etc.) it is likely that two 
(unrelated) friends in a rancho would have the same surname.

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Puentes <makas@n...> wrote:
> 
> I know that in most cases the padrinos were members of the family. 
But 
> other than showing this is via examination of the records how do we 
> know? Were there many examples of non blood relatives being the 
> Padrinos? I guess I'm more interested in if  anyone has ever 
witnessed a 
> padrino with the same surname of one of the parents actually being 
a non 
> blood relative. Has anyone ever seen this?
> 
> Where can I go to read more information on how our relatives picked 
> Padrinos and the likely hood that they were blood relatives of some 
degree?
> 
> thanks again you guys are great,
> 
> joseph

My first cousin, from Jerez Zacatecas sent me this explanation of a 
ventosa so I thought I'd share it.  It's a real combination of 
spiritual with physical which is old world... any comment from the 
Dr. in our group?

 A ventosa is as follows:  Mother would get a meduim size water 
glass and pour a little alcohol  into it and swirl it in the glass; 
then she would light it with a match and immediately place it on the 
area where the sprain was. The heat  would cause the muscle to pull 
upward into the glass and that would release the tension on it. The 
glass would remain there a few seconds and then she would repeat the 
procedure. My husband used to enjoy getting them whenever he had a 
back problem. She used them mostly on the torso. The extremeties she 
would massage with her hands after she applied an ointment. The one 
thing she did not believe in was "el mal de ojo". She called that 
brujerias (witchcraft). This is where they would apply a raw egg on 
the body and this would do  away with " el enhechizo" ( the curse) 
but, at the same time they had a lit candle and they would go back 
and forth over the body while they'd pray. It was quite interesting. 
I can't remember what else they'd use along with the egg. I tell you 
how I regret not writing all these costumbres down. 

Linda in Wa.. 

Good morning,

Just got my mtdna results back, don't understand most of but my 
female line is group A which is pre-Columbian, they take it back 
30,000 years... guess we've been here a while! The A group extends 
down into South America so our female Indio ancestor was native 
born...  Our male ancestors may have been from Spain but they 
married Native American women along the line.

This test does not show any of the women from our male lines, just 
female to female so it doesn't prove our Espanol or Mulato blood but 
the records prove that, so ...I'm happy just having a more complete 
picture of our family tree. My proven female line is from Jalisco 
Mexico.

Has anyone else in this group done the mtdna?

Linda from Wa.

HVR1 Haplogroup
 A
 
HVR1 differences

from CRS
 16111T
 
  16223T
 
  16290T
 
  16319A
 
  16335G
 
  16362C
 
  16526A
 

 
   
 

I would just like to add a comment to interesting information.  Spain was influenced tremendously by the Mohammedan peoples' occupation.  From 711 a.d. to 1492 a.d. Spain experienced the assimilation of many cultural traditions from Semitic, Arabic- and Aramaic-speaking peoples.  Names, behaviors, foods, etc., were brought to Mexico and other parts of the western hemisphere by the invaders from Spain.  Not everyone who left Spain was a Catholic Christian- willing to kiss the Pope's ring.

Davd in Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: Pacorro73@...
Sent: Jul 24, 2005 2:31 AM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ranchos] Re: information on records & "Guardar  Reposo 40 días"

The forty day tradition following childbirth is quite ancient.  It is part of the Mosaic Law, the Law of Moses, and appears in the Old Testament in the Bible.  Without a doubt the ancient Hebrews and other people of the Middle East practiced this tradition, including in Anatolia, modern day Turkey.  
 
Either because of Jewish tradition or becuase the Spanish Christians were adhering to the fact that for 40 days after Jesus was born, Mary was considered unclean according to Mosaic Law.  After the 40 days were over, both the mother and child were purified.  Here's the Biblical verse:
 
Luke 2:22-24 22And when the forty days of their purification according to the law of Moses were fulfilled, they brought him [Jesus] up to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord 23(as it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord), 24and to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons. 
 
 EL DÍA DE LA PRESENTACIÓN 

A los cuarenta días del nacimiento de Jesús, María y José se levantaron temprano. Era un día normal en el que María haría su primera visita al templo como se acostumbraba entonces que cada mujer hiciese después del parto. Pusieron carga en una bestia, tomaron al niño y se pusieron en marcha hacia el templo de Jerusalén. José llevaba un par de tórtolas en una canasta... 

 
>From http://forum.kusadasi.biz/thread1957.html
 
The forty-day threshold belief; 

great I just went and re-examined the original record and found what I
thought was the 5th of October was really the 25th of October making the
13th of the current month much easier for me to comprehend.

thanks David

joseph

David P. Delgado wrote:

Joseph,

It means "...He was born on Saturday the thirteenth of the current month..."

David in Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Puentes <makas@...>
Sent: Jul 24, 2005 2:47 PM
To: LosRanchos <ranchos@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ranchos] What does this mean?

<html><body>


<tt>
<BR>
&quot;Que nacio Sabado trece del corriente...&quot;<BR>
<BR>
&quot;He was born Saturday the 13th of previous month&quot;<BR>
<BR>
?????????<BR>
<BR>
thanks,<BR>
<BR>
joseph<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

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Joseph,

It means "...He was born on Saturday the thirteenth of the current month..."

David in Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Puentes <makas@...>
Sent: Jul 24, 2005 2:47 PM
To: LosRanchos <ranchos@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ranchos] What does this mean?

<html><body>


<tt>
<BR>
&quot;Que nacio Sabado trece del corriente...&quot;<BR>
<BR>
&quot;He was born Saturday the 13th of previous month&quot;<BR>
<BR>
?????????<BR>
<BR>
thanks,<BR>
<BR>
joseph<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>


    
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"Que nacio Sabado trece del corriente..."

"He was born Saturday the 13th of previous month"

?????????

thanks,

joseph

thank you Linda for the wonderful story of your gr-grandma Tula. .
.great story about her skills and knowledge. We have truly lost a lot of
knowledge when our old people pass away without trying to learn as much
as can from them.

My Grandmother Virginia Diaz (dob: Dec 15, 1886 Las Animas, Jalisco) was
a curandera of sorts. She knew some medicines but not as in depth as
I've heard others describe, but she did learn the art of midwifery. I
heard a story of how my sister went into labor and was going to the
hospital but stopped by to see my Grandma on the way. My Grandmother
said that the child was improperly positioned and if my sister wanted
her to repositon the child. Of course my sister said yes and by a series
of hand manipulations with my sister laying in a blanket that was being
pulled to put pressure on my sisters stomach the child was persuaded to
reposition properly. My sister said that she then went on to the
hospital and had a very very easy birth considering it was her first.

probably everyday in Mexico great wealths of information and knowledge
are passing with our old people.

joseph

Erlinda Castanon-Long wrote:

it would seem the the women of the world over time
developed "traditions" that worked to keep them healthier, happier
and connected with other women. Birth control didn't exist as we
know it and large families were the rule both by religion and by
economics in Mexico. It sounds like 40 days worked the world over.

True that you can't keep people out without password protecting it, 
but typically people won't find your site unless you advertise 
somewhere.  Believe me, I've set up a couple of sites and monitored 
the activity and the only people that accessed the site were those 
that I gave the URL to.  One site was for a family reunion and 
another was for my daughter's girl scout troop.  People were not 
exactly flocking to those sites.

I don't know if you read the bottom of the info page on genealogical 
society pages, but here is what it says:

"IMPORTANT: After you have your site up and operational, please send 
the URL of your homepage to websites@.... The Websites 
Webmaster will add you to the Guest Pages Index at RootsWeb, which 
should help increase the amount of traffic your page receives." 

The above implies that unless we give Rootsweb the URL to our site we 
would not be added to their index.  That means that doing a search on 
the Rootsweb pages would not find our site.  The only people who 
would be able to find the site are those who know the URL (us 
members).  I did think about keeping non-members out and don't think 
this would be a problem.

Maria


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Puentes <makas@n...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Arturo Ramos wrote:
> 
> >The problem with everybody hosting data on their own sites is that 
it
> >is not possible to make it freely available to members and keep it
> >from being accessible to the public in general.
> >
> yup
> 
> >  The Rootsweb web
> >space is simply to put up informational information.  I don't think
> >they have facilities to have member-restricted file access, etc.  
They
> >don't allow any scripts--only static pages on the site...
> >
> >Though, Joseph, it would probably be worthwhile putting up a page 
for
> >our group there that then leads people back here so that we can 
use it
> >to possibly recruit new members.
> >
> I'm not wanting to wholesale attract rootsweb people. We are 95 
members 
> strong. We could be 150 strong in 6 months if 1/2 of us picked one 
or 
> two people to recruit from rootsweb who gave the strong impression 
of 
> being very very serious. None of this "do you know Maria Garcia 
from 
> Zacatecas? If so send me her whole genealogy. . .thanks in advance" 
kind 
> of people.
> 
> >

My maternal grandmother was always known to us as Felicina.  She was 
not even aware of the fact that her legal "civil" name was Evangelina 
until she was required to obtain an official birth certificate for an 
immigration or social security process.  Thank God that the person 
working at the registrar was smart enough to look around a bit and 
find her certificate under her "other" name by matching her parents, 
place of birth, etc.  I think that she even had her birthdate wrong 
by a few days.  Her civil name was Evangelina and nowhere in her 
civil record did the name Felicina appear.  I think this is a pretty 
common phenomenon.  The other is the six brothers whose name 
is "Jose" but each goes under some other name such that "Jose de 
Jesus" is called Chuy, Jose Antonio is called "Tonyo" and Jose 
Francisco is called "Pancho".  


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alicia Carrillo <alliecar@p...> wrote:
> This is so interesting and too much of a coincidence.
>  
> My tia who´s my dad´s youngest sister called me today to say that 
her sister-in law was coming into town, that is my uncle´s wife who 
I´ve never met. We met for the first time today and I also met a 
first cousin, their daughter. We were exchanging names and she asked 
me "Do you want my full name", and I said of course. She laughed and 
proceeded to tell me what was behind her laugh. Her mother chose her 
name to be Noemi but when she was baptized she was baptized as 
Liduvina, Noemi, Avelar and at the civil registry as Liduvina Avelar.
>  
> She always went by the name Noemi but when she went to take exams 
to get into preparatory school she filled out the exam form as Noemi 
and the teacher came around to see who Noemi was because the legal 
(civil) documents presented said Liduvina not Noemi and they did not 
have anyone registered as Noemi. That´s the first time she knew she 
was something other than Noemi. She then proceeded to ask why and she 
was told that it was her aunt/godmother who chose the name Liduvina 
because she liked it and she was the one who went to the civil 
registry to notify the registrar of her birth and she was the 
godmother at the baptism so there again she was the one who told them 
her given name.
>  
> I believe my cousin is around 35-40 years of age, so you see it's 
still happening there, not only in the distant past.
>  
> Alicia Avelar de Carrillo
> San Jose, Ca
> 

I just talked with my relative who's mother, Paula Castanon (1896) was 
the midwife, she said her mom would help the Dr. in there town near 
Fresno Ca. for births and that was in the 20's, 30's and 40's. She 
also mentioned that here stateside we get 6 weeks pregnancy leave... 
that's 42 days so is it just an old world custom?  

She also said her Mom did ventosas. People would come to her home when 
they had muscular problems. She was good at massaging backs, arm and 
ankle sprains and she also used special herbs but my relative couldn't 
remember what they were.. I had never heard that word before so I'm 
still learning!

Linda in Wa.

it would seem the the women of the world over time 
developed "traditions" that worked to keep them healthier, happier 
and connected with other women.  Birth control didn't exist as we 
know it and large families were the rule both by religion and by 
economics in Mexico. It sounds like 40 days worked the world over.

My fathers aunt was a midwife in the district of Jerez Zacatecas.  
She learned her trade from her mother, Gertrudis Caldera (1869).  It 
was a mixture of religion and Indian medicines.  If someone died, 
she knew all the litanies by heart and was always called and never 
failed to go, she spend hours teaching her daughter to recite them 
by heart too. In El Durazno she was also the one who directed 
preparing the body for burial.  She delivered babies, fixed aches 
and pains, gave us Yuerba-Buena for tummy aches and had a remedy for 
everything. She was a blend of superstitious and religious. In doing 
the genealogy I find her Garcia ancestors were Indio and her Alcala 
ancestors were Mulato/Indio.  It's no wonder that she was the result 
of 3 cultures.. I was 5 when Gr-grandma Tula died but still her 
legacy lives on when the family gets together at reunions and shares 
stories she told about her life in Mexico before immigrating in 1916 
because of the revolution.
Linda in Wa.

Was it literal or was it not. I bet that in different time periods this
rule went from being widely practiced to not. Let's find out.

okay many people have relatives they are visiting when they go to
Mexico. . .let's start asking the old ones what they remember. We don't
need to make this the center of our investigation but a couple of
questions in passing makes for keeping the conversation interesting.

a civil discussion like this is so interesting. . .thank you all for
participating.

joseph

v.h.villarreal wrote:

I really doubt that this is an accurate interpretation or a widespread
practice even in the old days.  "Guardar reposo por 40 días" or
resting for 40 days wasn't supposed to be taken that the mother should
stay in bed, not taking a bath, etc. rather that she should "keep the

husband away from her bed for 40 days", if you know what I mean...

Victor

http://www.aina.org/books/aov.htm

Birth And Baptism

Pregnant women promise that if they have a son they will offer him to
serve the church. But if they have a daughter a sum of money or in kind
they will give to the church as a gift. When the child is born it is
immediately bathed in cold water and sprinkled with salt and wrapped him
cloths. They have learned from what Prophet Khezkiel wrote: "On the day
you were born your biblical cord was not cut, you were not washed in
water and you were not wrapped in cloths."

A son brings more happiness to a family than a daughter. Just like
Armenians when a boy is born all boys quickly go to the relatives of the
newly born boy, bless him and receive gifts.

Baptism

According to custom the child is baptized on the seventh day of its
birth. One day before baptism, the godfather is informed and in the
morning he goes to the mother of the child and takes with him a sheep if
he is wealthy. He takes the child and gives it to his wife and together
they go to the church. If the godfather is well to do he requests a
priest to conduct religious service and another priest to baptize the
child. After baptism, the godfather and godmother, without the priest
take the child with lit candles and deliver it to the mother. She takes
the child and puts it her side or in the cradle. Later, dinner is served
to all members of the family.