Does anyone know where I'd be able to find old maps (1700s-1800s) of Jalisco and its little towns and villages?
This should help
http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~33818~1171534…
Raul Munoz
Hi everyone, my name is Ruben Rojas,I am new to this site and this is my first post.I did research on this and came to a dead end.
Hi Ruben,
First, I want to welcome you to this group-- it's a great resource. I wanted to let you know that I have the same questions as you do about Phelipe de Santiago Delgado, as he is my 6th great-grandfather, through his second wife, Maria Eginia Carrillo.
I have hit the same dead end as you have, although I do have Phelipe's parents' names from his marriage record. I'm not sure that the records exist anymore, or perhaps they were not filmed, which is disappointing. I still have hope, but I'm not too sure about where to go next.
Send me a message through the group, and we can compare notes.
Rosalinda
Rosalinda, I also have a copy of all three of his marriage records and defuncion but I only see the name of the wifes' parents. Please if you have Phelipe's parents name I would love to know who they are so I can try to research further and share with you.
Thank You
Ruben
Hi Ruben--
I will follow up with an email to answer your question.
Rosalinda
Hello,
This is in response to Enrique (Message 6).
I was just working on our Brambila line today and found your information very informative.
Hello again:
I haven't work on this line since the last time I posted the forum about the Brambila family. Have you found any aditional information about this lineage?
Also the last time, I didn't reflect that you also descended from Andrés María Brambila married with Antonia López, I descend from his daughter named Gertrudis Pio Brambila married with José María Ramírez de Prado y Miranda. Also I have other lines but I think that's the closest between you and me. Do you have any information about Antonia López? I haven't found a marriage certificate and I didn't have Gregorio as one of his sons, maybe you have found it.
Hope you can see my message, thank you in advance.
Enrique
can you tell me where in Mexico this Brambila line is from? In my records I have them as Membrila or Bramila but for the most part they are from the district of Tamazula, Jalisco.
Linda in Everett, Wa
________________________________
From: "enrique_agraz94@hotmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:18 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Brambila y Arriaga
Hello again:
I haven't work on this line since the last time I posted the forum about the Brambila family. Have you found any aditional information about this lineage?
Also the last time, I didn't reflect that you also descended from Andrés María Brambila married with Antonia López, I descend from his daughter named Gertrudis Pio Brambila married with José María Ramírez de Prado y Miranda. Also I have other lines but I think that's the closest between you and me. Do you have any information about Antonia López? I haven't found a marriage certificate and I didn't have Gregorio as one of
Hi,
I've just read your message, and I also find your information very helpful.
In the first marriage of Agustín de la Brambila y Arriaga with Antonia González de León, the parents of Antonia were Antonio González de León and Catalina Díaz Santana.
The parents of Agustín were as you said were José de la Brambila y Arriaga and Antonia Isabel de Ibarra.
The fact about the parents of José, I didn't know it. I think that with a lot of probablity you're true, so they were José de la Brambila y Arriaga and Catalina Lomelin y Peralta. One of his sister's should be Antonia de la Brambila y Arriaga, married in Santa Veracruz, Distrito Federal, México. With her marriage information, I could know that she was born in Quirandaro , Michoacán, being again another clue of the statement that the Brambilas' first settled in Michoacán before Jalisco.
So, for the moment I'll continue with the research, If you have any new information let me know, thank you for your time.
Just tying up loose threads and going over old forums for clues. I did find the marriage for Antonia Brambila y Arriaga which mentions that she was born in Quirandaro, Michoacán. (Marriage link: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-11157-33005-92?cc=1615259&wc… .
However, I was able to locate the Baptism for Antonia which shows she was actually born in Teocuitatlan, Jalisco(Baptism link:https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19048-50742-42?cc=1874591&wc….
Certainly there must be a link with Quirandaro, Michoacán, but I'm thinking it was possibly the birthplace of the parents; but most of the siblings of Joseph were baptized in Mexico City. Let me know what you think.
Deedra Corona
Deedra,
I have found among my lines a Brambila y Arriaga, there are a couple, but I have one that I need help on, I hope you have some clues.
I have a José Antonio Tamayo Valverde baptized on 2 Dec 1703 in Santa Veracruz, Ciudad de México, Distrito Federal, México son of Pedro Tamayo Valverde and Antonia de la Brambila Lomelín. I have identified Antonia´s parents as José de la Brambila y Arriaga and Catalina de Lomelín y Peralta. This last couple had several children in Jalisco. José baptized on 4 Aug 1664 in Cocula and Manuel on 13 Jun 1663 in Teocuitatlán de Corona. There is no doubt these have close ties with you Brambila y Arriaga. What amazes me is the distance this family would generally travel, I have found them all over Mexico City, Michoacán, Jalisco, etc. They have close ties to the conquest and were very wealthy and had several haciendas in Michoacán, this explains their close ties there around Morelia and Zamora. I hope you can help.
Daniel Méndez de Torres Camino
Daniel, According to their marriage Pedro's parents were:
Juan Tamayo Salinas and Maria Velarde
I'm sorry that I'm unable to send you the link right now because I'm having problems with my WiFi, but the marriage date is: 16 April, 1697 in Santa Cruz, Mex,DF
Film 35849
Page 157
Image 445
If you have trouble let me know and I'll probably have my new modem next week. The marriage mentions she was born in Michoacan, but I also found her baptism in Teocuitatlan de Corona on 1 Jan 1671
Film 282927
Image 236
as I mentioned in a previous comment.
Hope this is helpful. I also have some information on Antonia's grandparents if that would be helpful? Let me know.
Deedra Corona
Deedra,
Thank you so much. I had strong interest in the Brambila y Arriaga when they linked with my Pérez de Bocanegra. This family has been vital records in the history and conquest of México, which is something I love to analyze and research. Have you found any information beyond José de la Brambila y Arriaga and Catalina de Lomelín y Peralta? One of my questions is, I have seen so many ''loose'' Lomelín around and about and wonder if they are somehow linked to Carlo and Luigi Lomellini who settled in México of whom many of us here in the forum descend. I have only done some research on the conquistador Juan Antonio de la Brambila.
Thanks,
Daniel Méndez de Torres Camino
Daniel, For Catalina Lomelin I have only her parents having been: Manuel Coria Peralta and Catalina Lomelin. I have Joseph's parents as Augustin Brambila y Arriaga and Gracia Alvarado. I believe I was given this information in a NR forum by our friend Enrique. I don't have any proof, but he may be able to help. From Joseph Brambila and Catalina Lomelin I have a total of 7 children all born in Teocuitatlan, Jalisco; except Joseph:
Manuel:B. 13 June 1663
For some reason I don't have the link
His marriage:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18715-12401-0?cc=1874591&wc=…
Lorensa: 11 Sept. 1661
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19048-51339-37?cc=1874591&wc…
Antonio: 27 July 1659
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19048-50854-29?cc=1874591&wc…
Juan: 22 Oct. 1657
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19048-50752-40?cc=1874591&wc…
Francisca: 12 Nov. 1671
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19048-50597-35?cc=1874591
Deedra,
Thank you so much for sharing your finds on the Brambila baptisms, they clarify certain things. What I find interesting is that on Manuel´s marriage he is stated as a native or resident of Xiquilpán, Michoacán, its very near Zamora. I believe the Brambila y Arriage in Zamora that I have studied is very closely related to him.
On Francisca´s baptism her padrinos are stated as Villaseñor y Lomelín, it would be interesting to see if Catalina de Lomelín y Peralta is in fact Villaseñor Lomelín. The couple that started this name were Juan de Villaseñor y Cervantes and María de Lomelín daughter of Luigi Lomellini and María del Olmo. Villaseñor y Lomelín were settled in mostly Ávalos, (Sayula, Teocuitatlán, etc but extended into Tamazula, Zamora, Michoacán and Guadalajara.)
Some records I have found while searching familysearch (you may have them)
Agustín de la Brambila y Arriaga and Gracia de Alvarado had the following:
Micaela 13 Oct 1625 in Santa Veracruz
Agustín 20 Jun 1628 in
Daniel,
I am a believer that this Jalisco line of Brambilas is also descended from Carlo and Luigi as you mentioned. I located a baptism for Jusepe Brambila, son of Agustin and Gracia Alvarado: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-11536-38426-94?cc=1615259&wc…
I was surprised to find many children baptized with that name around that time. It just sounded so odd.
Deedra Corona
Hola a todos, buenos dias.
Estimado Alessandro,
Este parece que pueda ser una hermana de Eleuterio, https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NP2H-DB1 por lo que quizas en Sahuayo puedas encontrar algo.
Saludos,
Ricardo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de viteliky@hotmail.com
Enviado el: Sunday, April 21, 2013 10:47 AM
Para: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: [Nuestros Ranchos] VALDIVIA/ NAVARRO -- RAMON VALDIVIA + MA. MARGARITA MALDONADO (DE ORNELAS)
Hola a todos, buenos dias.
Tengo el agrado de comunicarles que finalmente pude encontrar la informacion matrimonial que buscaba de mi antepasado JOSEPH (ELEUTEIO) VALDIVIA con FRANCISCA ROSALIA NAVARO. Habiendo encontrado este documento pude finalmente saber quienes fueron sus padres (Ramon Baldibia/Ma Margarita Maldonado (De Ornelas) + PEDRO NAVARRO/PETRONILA (Ptrona/Petra)SOLIS. Incluso encontre al parecer el matrimonio de estas parejas en La Barca y
Hi there everyone,
Armando,
I basically went to that website and I entered his name in the search box,then I clicked on Audiencia De Mexico and his name popped out "Confirmacion De Oficio:Francisco De Villalobos, but yet again we are not sure of that is my Francisco De Villalobos that we are talking about.Yes i'm aware of that thank you for that.
http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas/servlets/Control_servlet?accion=2&tx…
Here is the link again.
The link from PARES still doesn't work. The links normally don't work.
I was able to find the document in question by searching on Francisco De Villalobos then clicking on Audiencia De Mexico then clicking on Confirmacion De Oficio:Francisco De Villalobos
Using an explanation like the above is the best way to let people know which document you are referencing apart from using the link to the search page
http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas/servlets/Control_servlet?accion=0
The document does not name the parents of Francisco De Villalobos so there is no way to know if it was your ancestor.
The document is for the confirmation of a Francisco De Villalobos as regidor of Valladolid, Michoacán which is now known as Morelia, Michoacán.
The naming of Francisco De Villalobos took place in 25 Feb 1619. Your ancestor was baptized 31 July 1595. If he was named regidor in 25 Feb 1619 he would have been 23 years old which in my opinion would have been too young to have been a regidor. For
By the way, your ancestor Francisco de Villalobos was
born in Mexico. If the document in question is about a Francisco de Villalobos from Spain then it involves someone that isn't your ancestor.
Your ancestor Francisco de Villalobos was the brother of my ancestor Tomás de Villalobos.
Since Villalobos was the maternal surname of my grandfather I studied this family well. I was also the one that pointed you to this Francisco being your ancestor.
Armando
The link doesn't work. Can you provide more information on the record that you found or what you clicked on to arrive to the document that you found?
Armando
Ive started to look for the original documents for more details about my ancestors and occasionally can't seem to original referencing document.
The link you provided states that the record is in Film number:232862
The film number 232862 is listed in the catalog as being Bautismos 1711-1738.
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/286374
This means that the record you are looking for is definitely in Bautismos 1711-1738 which is where you were looking.
All indexed records ALWAYS match those of the volumes they reference by film number. This has never been wrong.
This means you just have to keep searching page by page and entry by entry.
Armando
You were right, I just looked some more and found the record right around the corner (next page); which happened to have a record in reverse chronological order, 1st was Sep 19th, then Sept 18th.. I guess they were playing catchup, or spilled some wine on the originals...
A little help goes a long way!
Thanks!
I can read all but the name of the town in this document; can someone fill in the missing word?
Jose de Jesus Barba Ornelas
Estimado Lawrence, ¿y el documento? ¿Donde lo encuentro?, somos buenos en lo que hacemos, pero no adivinos,no me mandes enlaces, mandame el nombre de la parroquia y la fecha del evento para tratar de ayudarte, sin otro particular te envio un afectuoso saludo.
A T E N T A M E N T E
JOSE DE JESUS BARBA ORNELAS
Victoriano, Rosa, y yo no tuvimos problemas de dar con el registro. Es la ultima entrada lado derecho. Con esa información no se tiene que adivinar ni la parroquia ni la fecha. La parte arriba de la página da el estado, ciudad, y parroquia del libro. Por lo mismo muchos preferimos enlaces con los nombres de los novios en caso de matrimonio y del hijo en caso de bautismos. La colocación del registro ayuda mas pero no siempre es necesario.
Armando
Jose de Jesus Barba Ornelas
Estimado Lawrence, ¿y el documento? ¿Donde lo encuentro?, somos buenos en lo que hacemos, pero no adivinos,no me mandes links, mandame el nombre de la parroquia y la fecha del evento para tratar de ayudarte, sin otro particular te envio un afectuoso saludo.
A T E N T A M E N T E
JOSE DE JESUS BARBA ORNELAS
All I could make out were the first four letters (Tete.....). I couldn't be sure about the others. I even compared the word with the Cubas book, but I didn't see anything promising. Good luck!
Rosalinda
I think it is this priests way of writing Tetxcoco or Texcoco. Just like Tepatitlán used to be spelled Tecpatitlán.
Armando
I couldn't understand the name of the city. Perhaps you could search if this marriage has the corresponding Información Matrimonial, maybe they wrote it there more clearly.
Regards,
Victoriano Navarro
I have been looking for information related to the loeras of Ojocaliente in Calvillo. The oldests records available for loeras are located in Mecatabasco Zacatecas and all are baptisms.
I have also been looking for the parents of Nicolasa Olaya de Loera and Micaela Olaya de Loera.
I have Nicolasa married to Geronimo Ledesma, and living near Tabasco from at least the mid-1750s. The two children I have for Nicolasa and Geronimo are: Raphaela De Los Dolores Estefana Ledesma Loera (b 15 Aug 1754) and Gertrudis Ledesma de Loera (b ~1750). Estevan Ledesma Loera is listed as the son of Micaela and Geronimo; Estevan is my 6G-grandfather.
I also have Micaela Olaya de Loera married to Geronimo Ledesma and it's possible that Nicolasa was also named Micaela, or that Micaela and Nicolasa were sisters. Micaela Olaya's last name was also given as "Sandoval" several times.
Any leads would be appreciated!
Thanks, Arturo
Unfortunately, it may be very difficult to find the records you're looking for. Up until the mid-1740s (1747?), Tabasco and Calvillo were under the jurisdiction of Jalpa. Most of Jalpa's church records are lost. From about 1747-1772, Calvillo was under the jurisdiction of Tabasco, and as far as I know there are no IM records for Tabasco before the mid-1800s.
With that being said, you should take a look at the couple of places suggested below, as I have seen Loera family trees there. (I have Loera relatives near Jalpa, so I've been keeping track of what I find.)
1. Diocesis de Guadalajara, Matrimonios:
https://familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysea…
Claudia Casillas has a wonderful website that is indexing these dispensas, film by film: http://www.guadalajaradispensas.com/ so take a look to see if there's a direct reference for you to track down.
2. Archdiocese of Guadalajara, Miscellaneous
Thank you for sharing all that information with me. That's seems to be the Ricardo that I was looking for and all the Loeras from Ojocaliente are related. Thanks to the dispensas de Guadalajara website I was able to find Ricardo's father and grand father. I read somewhere that most of the criollos of Calvillo( San Jose de Huajucar o Valle de huajucar) came from los altos de jalisco I don't know if that's true.
Do you have any other tips of places where I can look for loeras around calvillo?
Israel Sustaita Loera
you see, there are some couple's i found who got married in 1807 from the towns or colotlan, and huejucar who i think might be related to each other.
Hi, to everyone. Just a small question about a name. If someone can look at this marriage document: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18696-19142-66?cc=1874591&wc…
I think it says Antonia. A few pages ahead you can see the marriage of Antonia Apodaca, daughter of Antonio Apodaca:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18696-18838-87?cc=1874591&wc…
Regards,
Victoriano Navarro
Thanks for the reply. I had already seen the marriage record you mention. I'm still doubtful that Antonia was the witness because she was 16 at that time. I have never seen a witness that young on any record, or female for that matter. Also, the letter at the end of "Antonio/a" is written differently than the other a's in the document.
Saludos,
Steve in NC
usually testigos were male, but I do remember coming accross a marriage document with a female testigo named maria josefa(I don't remember her last name though)
Hi everyone,
Just thought I would let you know familytreedna.com is having a sale until
next Monday.
Juan
mtDNA DAY SALE $129 UPGRADE ANY mtDNA TO FULL SEQUENCE
FAMILYTRE
Has anyone come across post facto notes recorded on baptism records, for instance, say, a note on the baptism record about a person's later marriage?
Thank you all for your replies about post facto notes. Is there specific verbiage that anyone can dig up? For example, I have come across the words: "extractum accepit 3 Xbris 1767", which I believe literally means "accepting a contract on 3 December 1767". This strongly indicates to me a later marriage of this individual (as he was 25 years old in 1767).
I am more curious, and perhaps a little obsessive, about how this might have worked in practice, why they would have made these notes (albiet rarely), and if there was/is some Roman Catholic / Latin standard practice for it.
Thanks agian,
Jerry Stofleth
I wish I could answer all of your questions, but I will say this: all of the records I have worked with in Mexico have been in Spanish, although I have heard that some in Chihuahua were in Latin. The notes I have seen all pertain to marriages. I assume this was done by the priest to help track the eligibility of the person in question to be married. I have seen some notes that stated the person married someone in the US (I've seen this a few times, mostly in the post 1900 records).
Rosalinda
I have also only seen these records and side notes written in Spanish. In older records they might use some Latin words mixed with the mainly Spanish text. I have only seen Church records written completely in Latin in some Texan parishes after they were no longer part of Mexico.
Here is an example of a side note indicating that the person baptized in Torreón married in Fresnillo:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11777-101045-87?cc=1502401…
In the previous image there's another one for someone who married in Guadalupe, NL; so it seems they were making these notes for at least some people who got married in other cities/states.
Regards,
Victoriano Navarro
Any ideas WHY they might want to put these post facto margin notes in the book at all? Maybe the person noted was a friend of the church (probably not a priest), or perhaps was special in some way? For example, I have one record that has a margin note that says "...baptism of John, son of Lorenz, builder of the church in..."
Jerome Stofleth
I have seen such notes in the records, but they show up more often in the late 1800s and in post-1900 records, at least in my experience.
Rosalinda
I have seen some children baptism records in Mexico where they write in the margin some information regarding the marriage of the person as an adult. However these are very rare, pretty much the rest of the baptisms in the same books don't have these annotations.
Victoriano Navarro
I am looking for any information, baptisms, marriages, etc. for Nicolas Jaimes de Herrera and Juana Barron, who had a son named Melchor Jaimes de Herrera circa 1666 at Guanajuato, Mexico.
Hola de nuevo: estoy buscandno datos de nacimiento de un personaje que participo en la toma de Zacatecas en 1914 de nombre Juan Torres Rosales y fallecio en San Pedro Piedra Gorda, Zacatecas el 16 de
The line I am documenting goes through Joseph Ramón Campos, bap. 29 Apr 1779 in San Jacinto, Poncitlán, as were at least three of his siblings.
Hi Groupe, so I started indexing the informacion matrimonial for Nochistlan I did my best to spell the names correctly, and sorry if I did a mistake this is my first time indexing.One more thing I sk
Abram,
I would also like to congratulate you for indexing this film, although certainly there is room for improvement.
When you index a microfilm you are telling people: "I already went through this whole film, if you find the information you are looking for you are welcome, if you don't, don't bother going over this film because I already did it for you".
However, if you skipped pages, then you MUST at least indicate which ones did you skip so people may at least search there if they don't find the information they are looking for. The fact that you skipped the ones that you could not read is understandable, although that's why I said before that maybe you should be able to read well these scripts before trying to index a film. Skipping records "just because" is not so good.
Also, you are writing down pages, but I think in Claudia's guadalajaradispensas they include image numbers. You might write down both since the image numbers make the records easy to find but sometimes change
Victoriano,
What Abram is calling page numbers are actually image numbers.
Writing the name the way it shows up in the image and the standardized way makes for a lot of typing. Having and index of surnames with alternative non standardized spelling makes it to where he wouldn't have to type as much and at the same time would inform many readers what the standardized spelling is.
Examples where alternative spellings cause trouble - there was a recent post where a person said the wrote Baldivia for some people and Valdivia for others so now she he has two lists for the exact same surname. There was another post where a person did not realize Lozano and Losano were the same surname.
Saludos
Armando
One more thing. Using standardized spelling of surnames is also helpful. In past centuries different people spelled the same surname differently. Currently most surnames have standardized spelling. If the spelling is standardized it makes it much easier for people to do searches within a webpage or document with CTRL-F and finding what they are looking for. For example a search of Baldibia/Valdivia would have to be searched as "aldi" since those are the only sequential letters that both spellings share. Mexia/Mejia would be searched with "Me"or "ia" since those are the only sequential letters those spellings share. With standardized spelling more letters can be used to do the search. Having an index of surnames such as the following would inform readers that if they are searching for a certain spelling to use the standardized spelling that you have chosen.
Xauregui,Xuare = Jáuregui
Baldibia = Valdivia
Belasco = Velasco
Mexia = Mejía
Sandobal = Sandoval
Lesalde,Lizarde,Lisardi =
Abram,
I would like to congratulate you on this Información Matrimonial of Nochistlán project that you took on. This should help other people researching this city.
I think Claudia had a great idea of using a blog to post the indexes of dispensas and would be a great way to post your indexes. Creating and uploading to Google docs is another option. Including the names of the parents of the pretensos is also extremely helpful since at times there are surname changes and also because someone might be researching the maternal surname of one of the pretensos and the document might have another clue to that family.
Saludos,
Armando
Abram
This great addition to the resources here at NR.
I would suggest making a folder for Nochistlan in the Files area of NR and putting the lists there as Word or Excel files; a pdf would be just as good; if you are using an uncommon word processor, saving the file as a delimited text file would be the method of choice. The lists could be identified by town and year range as identified at Family Search, or alternatively with the FHL film number.
For future projects, identifying each record with a date (at least the year) is beneficial as the Matrimonial Investigations are often not in chronological order; I've found some to be years out of place.
This is the approach I took for the indices I made for Aguascalientes.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
Re: Familia Manriquez
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reposted: Please need help group!
By gaby7 - Posted on 25 March 2013
Birthdays taken from old US death records may be right on day and month, but they may be off by several years. In this case, it is off by one year, he was born in 1895:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12378-3484-97?cc=1554576&w…
Best regards from Torreón, 5 min. away form Lerdo.
Victoriano Navarro
Geri Shuster
Dear Victoriano, how can only words tell you how very grateful I am for your generous help. I have been looking for Serapio's records for years. I can not read Spanish (I am ashamed about that) but am learning as fast as I can. You live so close, are you related to me, or any Manriquez family? I have wanted to visit my father's ancestral home for so long but never had a contact in Mexico to our family. Again, thank you! I did the happy-dance about this wonderful find. And it also proves my research has not been that bad for a newbie. Geri
Hi Geri.
You are welcome! It wasn't that hard to locate knowing the birth place and approximate date since the baptism books from Lerdo have indexes at the end of each volume. There should also be a birth certificate in the corresponding civil records.
I don't have any Manriquez in my Laguna family tree (La Laguna is the region that includes Lerdo, Gómez Palacio, Torreón and nearby towns). The region has been settled only on the last 150 years or so, so pretty much all the families descend from people who arrived relatively recently, like the Manríquez.
Have a nice week!
Victoriano Navarro
Hi everyone, For those of you who have Santiago Pedroza married to Maria de la Cruz Martin del Campo in there tree and do not know when he died.
Jalostotitlan
AKA La llorona de Los Altos.
La titulada La Vieja del Concilio que narra la desventura de una hermosa
mujer española muy rica (que se cree fue doña Ana González Florida quien
vivió en el siglo XVII); quien fue atacada por un leoncillo que le desfiguró
Don Alfonso,
Qué gusto saber de usted de nuevo. Espero se encuentre de maravilla y que sus proyectos estén dando sus frutos y reconocimientos merecidos. Excelente y valiosísima aportación la que usted hace referente a la antepasada de casi todos nosotros los Alteños. Nuestra región está casi por cumplir sus primeros 5 centenares desde su forjación, y los que orgullosamente nos corre esta sangre por las venas agradecemos todos sus esfuerzos y tiempo dedicado al estudio y mejoramiento de nuestros Altos de Jalisco.
Hace tiempo tuve el placer de pasar a saludarlo a su oficina, donde me facilitó unas notas suyas acerca de Don Jose María Gonzalez de Hermosillo, las cuales me sirvieron para investigar los orígenes de este gran insurgente Jalisciense con raíces Alteñas. Sigue usted allí todavía?
Usted sabe dónde puedo encontrar el libro que menciona de Don Alberto Santoscoy Hernández? Lo he estado buscando por algún tiempo y aún no he dado con su paradero. Me interesa bastante obtener una
Alfonso Reynoso Rabago
Ricardo, me da gusto saludarte.
Trato, dentro de mis limitaciones, responder tus preguntas.
El libro de Alberto Santoscoy "Historia de Nuestra Señora de San Juan de los Lagos y del culto de esta milagrosa imagen", segunda edición de 1903, se encuentra en internet en pdf. La liga es la siguiente:
http://ia600301.us.archive.org/21/items/historiadenuest00santgoog/histo…
Con relación a José María González de Hermosillo, hemos escrito un libro pero necesitadmos hacerle una minuciosa revisión antes de su publicación. Espero que este año esté listo para la imprenta. Los misterios de su genealogía se han descifrado bastante bien con los aportes del Ing. Alfonso Rodríguez Ortiz y del Lic. Mariano González Leal.
Según diversas fuentes, entre ellos Mariano González Leal, los González de Hermosillo poseyeron propiedades en distintos puntos de los Altos, entre ellos, como lugar extremo, en Juanacatlán (antes Xonacatlán, en náhuatl "lugar de
Don Alfonso,
Mis agradecimientos por el link a tan valiosa publicación, ya lo he guardado y puesto en mi colección digital, esperando a encontrar algún día el original para adquirirlo. Suerte con su libro, si en algo le puedo asistir por favor no dude en hacérmelo saber.
Acerca de Don Joseph María Phelipe González de Hermosillo y Romero de Chávez, lo felicito por haber encontrado el acta de matrimonio de sus padres, vinculando con ésta este linaje tan incógnito con sus antepasados Alteños y del centro de México, los Hermosillo, que tánto cambiaron de lugar de residencia durante el transcurso de los primeros tres siglos de nuestra historia regional.
Saludos cordiales,
Ricardo Rodríguez Camarena
Carlos Peredo
Estimados Don alfonso y Don Ricardo,
Hace algunas semanas que afortunadamente fuí aceptado como miembro en este valioso foro que es Nuestros Ranchos y, hoy que decidí retomar la busqueda de mi rama González de Hermosillo encontré sus interesantes comentarios sobre Doña Ana González Florida y sobre el héroe insurgente José María.
En esta ocasión, además de saludarles y agradecerles por sus aportaciones a este foro y al mejor conocimiento de la historia alteña, recurro a ustedes solicitando ayuda para encontrar la procedencia de mi quinta abuela : Doña Anna María (ó Merenciana) González de Hermosillo que casó ca 1786 con Don Joseph María Peredo y que en dic. 1788 bautizaron en Arándas a mi cuarto abuelo Don Joseph María Peredo González de Hermosillo.
Por lo que hé leído, la población de Arándas acababa de ser fundada,y, en la lista de fundadores no he encontrado ni Peredos ni González de Hermosillo, por lo que entonces ambos ancestros míos venían de alguna otra parte. Lo
Estimado Don Carlos,
Es un gusto recibir su correo. He hecho una búsqueda en mi base de datos y no he encontrado información alguna acerca de sus bisabuelos. Podría usted proporcionarme, si no es mucha molestia, la fecha y lugar de matrimonio de sus quintos abuelos Don Joseph María Peredo y Doña Ana María Gonzalez de Hermosillo? Lo mas probable es que hayan sido originarios de la jurisdicción de Jalostotitlán, por lo cual creo que vamos a encontrar la información que usted busca en uno de estos libros parroquiales.
Espero sigamos en contacto,
Saludos cordiales,
Ricardo Rodríguez
Cronista de Los Altos de Jalisco
Carlos Peredo
Estimado Don Ricardo
A continuación anexo la ficha que se encuentra en familysearch de la partida de bautizo de mi cuarto abuelo, como le comentaba anteriormente, se que nació y se casó en Arándas, pero no sé si sus papás se casaron ahí o en donde.
Josef Maria Peredo Gonzales
Mexico Baptisms, 1560-1950
residence: Jalisco, Mexico
parents: Josef Maria Peredo, Anna Maria Gonzales
record title: Mexico Baptisms, 1560-1950
name: Josef Maria Peredo Gonzales
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 20 Dec 1788
baptism/christening place: SANTA MARIA DE GUADALUPE, ARANDAS, JALISCO, MEXICO
father's name: Josef Maria Peredo
mother's name: Anna Maria Gonzales
indexing project (batch) number: C60295-2
system origin: Mexico-ODM
source film number: 297527
Como podrá observar, aquí no se muestra el apellido completo de Anna María, sin embargo, en la boda de su hijo (mi cuarto abuelo) y en algunas de las partidas de bautizo de los hijos de este último vienen consignados los
Hay una dispensa de un Juan Antonio González de Peredo y de Encarnación
Romo de Vivar y González de Hermosillo en 1785.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18408-30125-91?cc=1874591&wc…
En los bautismos de sus hijos en Aguascalientes Encarnación aparece como
Emerencia.
No digo que son los mismos que buscas pero hay mucho datos que hacen
parecer que si los son. No he revisado los documentos y tal vez tienen
pistas que pueden quitar esa duda.
Saludos
Armando
2012/7/23
> Carlos Peredo
>
> Estimado Don Ricardo
>
> A continuación anexo la ficha que se encuentra en familysearch de la
> partida de bautizo de mi cuarto abuelo, como le comentaba anteriormente, se
> que nació y se casó en Arándas, pero no sé si sus papás se casaron ahí o en
> donde.
>
> Josef Maria Peredo Gonzales Mexico Baptisms, 1560-1950
> residence: Jalisco, Mexico
> parents: Josef Maria Peredo, Anna Maria Gonzales
> record title: Mexico Baptisms, 1560-1950
> name: Josef Maria
Acabe de darme cuenta que la dispensa es para Juan Antonio González de
Peredo y Emerenciana Romo de Vivar y González de Hermosillo. El indice en
http://www.guadalajaradispensas.com/2012/05/1785-fhl-source-film-168068…
a Emerenciana como Encarnación.
Emerenciana fue hija de Alejo Romo de Vivar y Villalobos y Francisca
Javiera González de Hermosillo. Alejo fue hijo de Nicolás Romo de Vivar y
Ruiz de Esparza y de María de Villalobos y Martín del Campo bautizado
el 3 de agosto 1704 en Aguascalientes
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-13033-26920-95?cc=1410092&…
Nicolás Romo de Vivar y Ruiz de Esparza y de María de Villalobos y Martín
del Campo casaron el 12 de febrero 1684 en Aguascalientes
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12446-30241-71?cc=1410092&…
Nicolás fue hijo de Pedro Romo de Vivar y Rangel Pequero y de Lorenza
Tiscareño de Molina y Ruiz de Esparza y María fue hija de Salvador de
Villalobos Macías Valadez y Francisca Martín
Carlos Peredo
Armando muchísimas gracias por el tip, acabo de leer el link y lo encuentro muy interesante por lo que a continuación anexo algunas partes de él :
Don Juan Antonio González de Peredo originario de los reinos de Castilla en el lugar de Quixas en el obispado de Santander y vecino de ésta villa, h. lexítimo de Don Alejandro González de Peredo y de Doña Manuela Velarde como más en dxo lugar haya (…….) parezco y digo : Que para mejor servir a Dios mi señor tengo tratado contraer matrimonio con Doña Emerenciana Romo de Vivar originaria de la Jurisdicción del Pueblode San José de Gracia en el puerto del Rincón de los Romos y vecina de ésta villa. h. lexítima de Don Alexo Romo de Vivar y de Doña Francisca Xaviera González de Hermosillo, difunto el primero, viuda de Don Pedro Gutiérrez de Velasco ha más de un año sepultado en la iglesia parroquial de Zacatécas y para que tenga efecto se ha de servir VM mandar se me reciva la correspondiente información de liberación ¿? y sobrina
Estimado Carlos y Armando,
Noté esa misma dispensa de Juan Antonio González de Peredo, originario de Quixas en el obispado de Santander, de los Reinos de Castilla. Es una dispensa increível y gusté de estudarlo. Otra prueba que los élites de Aguascalientes en esa época casaba con penínsulares que eran comerciantes Creo que los Peredo de Aranda serán de la misma familia de los Peredo de León en el Obispado de Michoacán (Guanajuato). Estos Peredo, sea los de León están ligados comigo por meio de la familia de mi abuela materna, los García Rojas y con los de Guillermo Tovar de Teresa, descendiente del Condado de Gustarredondo cuyo descendientes se vincincularon con los Peredo de León. Exisitía varios vínculos en esa época que casaban varias familias de León con los de Aguascalientes. Algunas líneas pasaron y se asentaron en la parte este de los Altos de Jalisco. Con más estudo e investigación, creo que los de Aranda saldrán de la misma familia. Ojalá esto ayuda en alguna manera.
Daniel
Carlos Peredo
Estimados Armando y Ricardo,
Les saludo con gusto y agradeciendo sus amables respuestas.
No he podido hacer avances respecto a Anna Maria porque ha estado lloviendo mucho en mi region y han sido tormentas electricas, lo que al final causo que muchisimos modems se quemaran (incluido el de mi casa), asi que me quede incomunicado (ahorita vine a un ciber cafe)
Es muy posible Armando como tu dices que los Peredo de Arandas seamos los mismos que enparentaron con los Garcia Rojas y con los Villa Fernandez, lo cual me daria mucho gusto.
Hay otra opcion tambien, que al parecer haria mas anterior el posible parentesco y es el hecho de que hay un Juan de Peredo y Saens de Bustamante que caso el 29-jul-1693 en salvatierra Gto con Teresa Samano Medrano y de el desciende Rita Toribia Peredo Ramirez la que caso en segundas nupcias por 1768 con Don Cristobal Hidalgo y Costilla.
El caso es que Rita (aunque originaria de Morelia) ya vivia en La Piedad Michoacan desde que caso con N
Carlos Peredo
Estimado Daniel
Me acabo de percatar que en mi anterior post en que pretend{ia responder a tu mensaje, erroneamente escribi el nombre de Armando, por lo cual te pido me disculpes.
Para corregir mi error revise aqui mismo dentro de nuestros ranchos la informacion referente a ti y encontre que entre los apellidos de tu interes esta tambien Hidalgo y Costilla , el cual menciono en mi anterior mensaje.
Por otra parte- y esperando no estar equivocado una vez mas - me parece que en alguna ocasion vi en geneanet que entre las personas que has investigado (aunque no se si es tu pariente) se encuentra una Dorotea Mendez a la cual vi anexo el año de 1854; es el caso que una de mis bisabuelas se llamo Dorotea Mendez y debio nacer alrededor de ese año ya que caso a principios de los 70s y por 1880 dio a luz a mi abuela Concepcion Garcia Mendez. Se que seria una verdadera casualidad que se tratara de la misma pero seria una muy afortunada casualidad para mi ya que todavia no tengo
Carlos Peredo
Estimado Daniel
Revisé algunas notas que tengo y encontré la ascendencia de Juan Antonio González de Peredo , el que vino en "derechura" desde Santander a casarse con Emerenciana Romo de Vivar y González de Hermosillo.
Como verás más abajo, Juan Antonio tenía parentesco con el muy ilustre Gobernador de Chile Don Ángel de Peredo y Villa, que era abuelo del esposo de su tía abuela María González de Peredo, Don Juan Antonio de Peredo y Rasines de la Fuente, razón por la cual, al más reciente Juan Antonio (el que vino a casarse a Aguascalientes) se le bautizó con ese nombre.
Domingo Fernández de Peredo n1588 + María Fernández Caballero
Andrés de Peredo n12-mar-1615 +17-jul-1644 María Pérez de Bustamante
Ana María Peredo n1665+11-jul-1684,8-V-1685 Francisco Gonzalez de Castañeda
tuvieron a :
María González Peredo n1685 +c1705 Juan Antonio de Peredo Rasines de la
Fuente n1667caballero de Calatrava h. de Juan Antonio de Peredo y de Rasines
y
Don Carlos,
He estado buscando y desafortunadamente no he logrado encontrar algo todavia, pero en cuanto el tiempo me lo permita, voy a buscar en algunos archivos antiguos de Jalostotitlán que tengo por ahí y te aviso se sale algo. Creo que en Jalostotitlán es donde vamos a encontrar lo que buscamos.
Saludos,
Ricardo
Carlos Peredo
Estimado Ricardo,
Al parecer he encontrado a los ascendientes de mi antepasada Anna María González de Hermosillo, aquí mismo en nuestros ranchos está un post de ElCapitanPaco del 30 de julio de 2010 en el que viene la pareja formada por Don José González de Hermosillo y Doña María Candelaria Hernández Gamiño que casaron en Teocaltiche en 5-jun-1752.
Esta pareja se avecindó también en Ayo el Chico y finalmente en Arandas y ahí los he encontrado como padrínos en algunos bautizos. He encontrado 14 hijos y por los bautizos, se vé que se trasladaban entre Ayo y Teocaltiche ya que por ejemplo, bautizan a su primer hijo : José Pablo en Teocaltiche en 1753, pero en 1754 bautizan a María de Jesús en Ayo; en 1764 bautizan a María Rita en Ayo pero en 1766 bautizan a María de San José en Teocaltiche y en 1773 a María Dionisia en Arandas.
He encontrado por ejemplo la boda de María del Cármen González de Hermosillo con Manuel Morales Natera en Arandas en 1795 en que se mencionan
Alfonso Reynoso Rábago.
Hola Rick.
Aporto a tu versión de la leyenda el relato original del cual probablemente se deriva la leyenda.
Ana González Florida II nació hace más de 400 años, en 1594, y falleció en 1672, en Jalostotitlán, fue esposa de Juan González de Hermosillo II, uno de los hijos de los importantes genearcas alteños Juan González de Hermosillo I y María Muñoz. Ana González Florida II se consideraba beneficiaria de uno de los primeros milagros de Nuestra Señora de San Juan de los Lagos. En efecto, en el libro de Alberto Santoscoy Historia de nuestra señora de San Juan de los Lagos y del culto de esta milagrosa imagen (1903, pp. 152-153) se reproduce la información que recopiló el Lic. Juan Gómez de Santiago, cura beneficiado de Jalostotitlán, la cual terminó el 18 de marzo de 1668. En esta información encontramos un relato de Melchor González de Hermosillo, el Viejo, hijo de Ana González Florida II. Para facilitar la lectura de tan interesante texto actualizaré la
La Llorona:
Hey Rick,
Parece que el cuento de la Llorona tiene varias versiones, depende en el
area de Mexico a que se refiera. He oido que el origen fue en la Ciudad de
Mexico, hay otros cuentos que dicen que fue en Jalisco, y así sucesivamente
por toda la Republica.
La que yo oí, version de Jalisco, es que fue una mujer muy bonita y muy
creída, ningún hombre era lo suficiente guapo para ella. Un dia llegó un
caballero, buen mozo, que se deslumbró al ver aquella mujer tan linda y
hermosa. Insistió conquistarla por mucho tiempo hasta que llegó el dia en
que ella cedio a los avances amorosos y por fin se casaron. Tuvieron dos
hijos, pero al correr del tiempo, el fue perdiendo interes en ella. Se
ausentaba por largo tiempo y nomas regresaba de vez en cuando unicamente
para ver a sus hijos.
En cierta ocasión, ella andaba con sus dos hijos caminando por el bordo del
rio cuando vio que se detuvo una caleza en la cual venía su esposo con otra
mujer, se bajó el para ver y
Hi Rick,
Did you ever finish writing the whole legend or find out any other stoies about Ana Gonzalez florida ll?
Un Saludo.
Sofia
GRACIAS RICK!
Sophia> From: rickrod.com@gmail.com> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:07:32 -0500> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] La Vieja del Concilio (La Leyenda de Ana Gonzalez Florida II)> > AKA La llorona de Los Altos.> > > > La titulada “La Vieja del Concilio” que narra la desventura de una hermosa> mujer española muy rica (que se cree fue doña Ana González Florida quien> vivió en el siglo XVII); quien fue atacada por un leoncillo que le desfiguró> el rostro, pasando la desdichada el resto de sus días con la cara cubierta;> se convirtió entonces en una mujer muy cruel que se dedicó a asaltar> diligencias y arrieros, en unión de su banda; reuniendo una gran fortuna.> Agrega la leyenda que, después de fallecida, su espíritu vagó y siguió con> sus fechorías, auxiliada por los animales feroces que la obedecían.> > > > There are people that say that they have seen her wandering the old dirt> roads (caminos reales) where she used to assault her victims. Some old>
anyone in the group have this haplogroup? If so there is a gentleman
that has some info to share.
Looks like I still have a lot to learn. If by haplogroup you mean, the http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
> Genealogy), yes I have it.
> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 18:09:59 -0400
> From: makas@nc.rr.com
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] E1b1b1 haplogroup
>
>
> anyone in the group have this haplogroup? If so there is a gentleman
> that has some info to share. Let me know.
>
> joseph
>
> ======================
>
> Joseph Puentes
> NoMeat@h2opodcast.com
> http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html (Vegan Environmental Solutions Podcast)
> http://h2opodcast.com (Environmental Podcast)
> http://h2opodcast.blogspot.com (Blog for above)
> http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
> http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)
> http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
> Genealogy)
>
>
Hi Joseph, I am E-V13 \ E1b1b1a2 the "Balkan" marker.
Regards,
Robert Gonzalez~
The E haplogroup, like all groups have various sub clades.V22 and V12 being prevelant among people of Jewish decent, E-M81 is called the "Berber Marker" as it is found in overwhelming numbers among those peoples. My marker, V13, dubbed the "Balkan"marker is found in high numbers among Bulgarians,Greeks,Serbs,Romanians and Hungarians,but at the highest numbers in the Albanian community.
Some other notables carrying the V13 marker are former President Lyndon Johnson and George Stepahaopolis.
While family members of Adolf Hitler have tested positive for E, his haplogroup has not been determined, if it has, it has not been made public. If it was found to be V12 or V22, that would point to Jewish ancestory. It is is found to be V13, this could point to decent from a Balkan soldier in Roman service, there are numerous German V13's. Or it could have found it's way from the Balkans to Germany via the Danube. There are V13 hot spots aong the Danube as well as the Black Sea coast into the
There is a high probability that hitler descends from the rockefeller family. A member of his ancestry became pregnant while working for the family as a maid. She was sent packing when it was discovered that she was pregnant. Her duties involved being isolated from the community so she was made pregnant by a rockefeller or another staff member. But she was also isolated for the most part from other staff. From the info collected it was a very high probadility that it was a rockefeller. Hitler kept this info hidden
R A Ricci
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.orgDate: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 22:55:16
To:
Reply-To: general@nuestrosranchos.org, gandalf3.1@netzero.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sharing info regarding e1b1b1
The E haplogroup, like all groups have various sub clades.V22 and V12 being prevelant among people of Jewish decent, E-M81 is called the "Berber Marker" as it is
Gossip from Nuestros Ranchos? rockeller?
Facts are Facts
During the Inquisition Jews were forced to leave Europe on slave ships to the
Americas. They hopped on as doctors for the slaves or slave owners or
as negotiators. Once that slaves were freed in Mexico they had to stop the slave
trade or be incarcerated. It was easier to hide in the hills and mountains of
jalisco then join Napoleon's army to fight for "pro slavery." They continued
underground .
Yes the semetic v13 marker is in most people because our world is mixed. Even
our Native Americans are mixed. Olmec's have the V13 marker........
________________________________
From: "mygenes2000@yahoo.com"
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org; gandalf3.1@netzero.com
Sent: Sat, June 4, 2011 8:47:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sharing info regarding e1b1b1
There is a high probability that hitler descends from the rockefeller family. A
member of his ancestry became pregnant while working for the family as a maid.
She was
Boy, I just don't where to begin in reponse to those last two posts. This sort of things rears it's head everytime the subject of genetics and DNA is brought up. First of all, there is no such thing as a "Jewish Haplogroup" there are "sub clades" or sub groups of each larger haplogroup that are more prevelant among certain ethnic groups.
The only sub clade that can be used to identify members of the Jewish community is the so called "Cohen Marker" J1c3\J-P58.
While there is a good amount of V12 or V22 in the Jewish community, this does not make it a "Jewish" marker any more than R1a, which is also found among people of the Jewish faith.
What needs to be understood here is that Judism is an ideology shared not only by Semetic peoples, but peoples of other genetic backgrounds. It is akin to saying there is a "Catholic" or "Mormon" marker than one could use to determine spiritual affiliation.
E-V13 is very low in the Jewish community, it is also very rare in the middle east and
Ruth, those comments were not directed at you, I'm sorry if you thought so.
They were rather directed at the jumbled post regarding Hitler's ancestry. There is just so much that is wrong with that post I can't even begin to explain. Actually, I don't know what makes it relevant.
I understand we are discussing a Haplogroup that he is associated with, but number one , his sub clade has yet to be determined and number two, interesting as it may be, it has little to do with any of us here.
Regards,
Robert~
Exactly,that was my point.
________________________________
From: "gandalf3.1@netzero.com"
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sun, June 5, 2011 9:26:07 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ruth M \ E haplogroup
Ruth, those comments were not directed at you, I'm sorry if you thought so.
They were rather directed at the jumbled post regarding Hitler's ancestry. There
is just so much that is wrong with that post I can't even begin to explain.
Actually, I don't know what makes it relevant.
I understand we are discussing a Haplogroup that he is associated with, but
number one , his sub clade has yet to be determined and number two, interesting
as it may be, it has little to do with any of us here.
Regards,
Robert~
I am not sure which are your sources, but it is false that the Inquisition sent Jews to the Americas on slave ships. On the contrary, migration to Americas was subject to Blood Purity Laws (pureza de la sangre), which restricted the passage to Catholics (at least three generations back). As such, jewish and moorish converts were not eligible to travel to the domains of the Spanish crown. My guess is that the inquisition wanted to prevent non-catholics colonies to be established in the huge expanse of the New World. However, regardless of the law, 'conversos' did arrive to the Americas and played a central role in the colonization and conquest of New Mexico, Nuevo Leon and Coahuila, some with Portuguese roots. Alberto Canto, founder of Saltillo and Diego de Montemayor founder of Monterrey, both my direct ancestors were jewish converts, and so was Oñate. How did these and many other Jews manage to come to New Spain? Bribery, special permision form the King, and other means may have play
I am sorry, but I strongly disagree with many things that have been written in this forum. It worries me that this becomes a mean to reproduce and spread unsubstained information and myths regarding geneaology and family history. I do not mean this personally to anyone, but I have to say this because it is becoming more and more common in this forum.
In the first place, we must understand that genetic maps only describe the place of origin of the ethnic groups that compose our blood, and not the cultural, religious or social origins. Not by having a genetic imprint from the Balcans, does it mean that those people were jews. It's like that, there is a chance because the balcans were full of jews (in the latest centuries and not the founding ones), but that doesn't mean that every balcanic human being is a jew. Anyway, I don't know much about genetic mapping, and I might be wrong.
The second and most frightening of statements was that of the supposed origins of our northern city
My statement was intended to refute that Jewish from Spain were sent to the Americas in slave vessels. Now regarding the converso origin of Diego de Montemayor, some people argue in favor, and others against. I agree, it not productive to center a point not verifiable with documentation. Now regarding facts, some of the statements circulating around Don Luis de la Cueva y Carvajal are false. Don Luis was NEVER charged, or, found guilty of judaism by the inquisition. That is an invention of Don Vicente Riva Palacios in "Mexico a Traves de los Siglos". Regarding the connection of Canto y Kent, I would be extremely interested in any document that proves that such connection is not a mythical attempt to connect to royalty. Every person that I've contacted in regard to this claim, fails to provide the original documentation supporting such lineage. Do you have such documentation?
Jaime
Estimado Sr. Daniel Delfín,
Le escribo en referencia a su mensaje sobre la familia de Alberto del Canto. Como Ud. dice, ¡disculpe mi rudeza y no sé ni por dónde empezar! Si Ud. es escéptico de lo que algunos afirman creo que yo le gano.
Empiezo por comentarle que no soy historiador sino químico, pero tengo más de 10 años de dedicarme a la investigación científica en diversas universidades de México y EEUU. Algo que he aprendido es que no hay que creer a ciegas nada de lo que otra gente diga, sin importar quién lo haya dicho ni dónde lo haya publicado. Los científicos sabemos que cuando publicamos los resultados de nuestra investigación lo ponemos bajo el escrutinio de la comunidad, y el día de mañana otros investigadores podrán corroborar o desmentir lo que afirmamos, y de esto no estamos exentos ni el Dr. Sergio Corona, ni el arzobispo de Constantinopla, ni yo (que hasta en mi tesis doctoral y artículos ya publicados en revistas indizadas he encontrado errores).
Menciona Ud. que
Estimado Sr. Navarro,
Reconozco que he tenido que esperar algunos días para digerir su comentario. No puedo evitar darme cuenta a través de sus palabras la gran pasión que lo mueve por la genealogía, pero a la ves, como buen científico, por la certeza. No se si usted me recuerde, pero no es la primera vez que nos escribimos. Hace algún tiempo yo me puse en contacto con usted para conseguir información acerca de Marcos Hernández Montalvo, la cual usted tan amablemente me proporcionó. Rememoro con mucha estima su buena disposición y cordialidad y recuerdo que en aquella ocasión usted firmaba sus respuestas como "tu primo". Quizás en esa ocasión no tuve la oportunidad de conocer su lado más pasional, que en este último comentario aprecio con claridad. No lo digo a modo de juicio Sr. Navarro, me siento muy identificado con esa pasión.
En mi caso, la pasión que tengo por la genealogía no es ni por motivos religiosos, ni por una búsqueda insaciable de la verdad, ni por fundamentar mi
Estimado Sr. Delfín,
Muchas gracias por sus comentarios. Me he comunicado por correo con tantos genealogistas a lo largo de los años y se familiariza uno con tantos otros nombres en los foros que luego es difícil saber con quíen ya tuvo uno correspondencia y sobre qué. Y le escribí al foro porque sí me hicieron saltar de mi asiento algunos de los comentarios sobre Canto y los Kent y quería hacer pública mi posición al respecto, como Ud. hizo lo propio en cuanto a lo de los haplogrupos y los supuestos orígenes criptojudíos de los primeros pobladores europeos del noreste. Yo comparto su opinión pero ya a veces uno escoge sus batallas y mejor no se mete en discusiones interminables.
Yo pienso que los Canto al igual que muchas familias se ganaron la nobleza como tantas otras de la época, prestando servicios de armas al rey en turno y recibiendo a cambio los blasones correspondientes, no necesitaban de los Kent.
Respondo esta vez en el foro y no por correo personal porque quisiera
An intiguing new take on the theory which postulates that Alberto del Canto (founder of Saltillo, d. ca. 1611) and the Canto family form the Portuguese Azores Islands descend from John of Kent. According to this blogpost, this family could instead descend from Sir John Chandos, Viscount of Saint-Sauveur in the Cotentin, Constable of Aquitaine, Seneschal of Poitou, KG (died 31 December 1369):
http://familiacantomedievalnfpmjcfg-en.blogspot.mx/2011/07/consideratio…
Still just a theory yet to be proven with documents, but I'll have to say it is a very interesting one.
Victoriano Navarro
Jaime Rendon Hernandez
Daniel,
You make a reference to Marcos Hernandez Montalvo. Was he born in Monclova Coahuila circa 1650? I see a Marcos Hernandez as a witness to many marriages in late 1690 in Monclova. However, his name is only entered as Marcos Hernandez. Many of these marriages involved military personnel!!
Thank you,
Jaime Rendon Hernandez
My great-great-great grandfather, José Lorenzo de Jesús Chavez, christened on the twentieth of August, 1809 was listed "Indio de Tolotlán" on his birth record.
Hi there group,
Here is the Link for the informacion matrimonial of Pedro Rodriguez And Petrona De Yslas
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15188-23326-24?cc=1804458&wc…
En Español:
Hola Gina:
Muchas Gracias por escribirme, antes que nada dime como te enterste
de mi y de mi busqueda por el apellido de mi varonia, Los Villegas, dime
tambien que edad tienesy donde y aque te dedicas.
Jose de Jesus Barba Ornelas
Estimado Tomas, veo que tienes muy mala referencia de los notarios que hacian las actas de los sacramentos suministrados por los Parrocos y sus ayudantes, estas personas escribian los datos que las personas les decian,al principio los escribanos y sacerdotes, enfrentaron el problema de que los indigenas tenian sus propios nombres, pero al bautizarlos les ponian el nombre de algun santo o el del dia en que los bautizaron. Pero el problema principal es que los indigenas no tenian apellidos,entonces los escribanos posiblemente les preguntaban el nombre del patron de la hacienda o rancho donde trabajaban. El indigena bautizado, contestaba, por ejemplo: en la hacienda de Don Juan de Villegas y el escribano asi lo asentaba, con el tiempo se hizo costumbre y en vez de contestar que era trabajador de la hacienda de Don Juan Villegas, simplemente decia llamarse Pedro Villegas. En cuanto a que los escribanos y sacerdotes menospreciaban a los indigenas ahi si que no
Hola Tomás,
He leído tu mensaje varias veces, pero no me había dado tiempo para enviarte mis saludos y decirte que somos parientes hasta tu 5a generación. De ahí en adelante tomamos diferentes caminos, pero aquí te va:
1a. Yo, Maria del Refugio de Alba
2a. Generacion: Papás Tomas de Alba Ramirez y Lucia Morales Sanchez.
3a. Generacion: Abuelos: Jose Concepcion Morales y Feliciana Sanchez Reyes.
4a. Generacion: Bisabuelos: Telesforo Sanchez Briceño y Maria Reyes Villegas.
5a. Generación: Tatarabuelos:Jose Martin Reyes Preciado y Valeriana Villegas Flores. CREO que Valeriana muy bien pudiera haber sido hermana de Tomas Villegas Flores.
6a. Generacion: 5tos.Abuelos: Apolonio Villegas y Ma. Fermina Flores Martin.
7a. Generacion: 6tos.Abuelos: Manuel Villegas y Miguela Ramirez Muñoz.
8a. Generacion: tos.Abuelos: Juan Trinidad Villegas y Maria Gertrudis Melendes.
Espero haber listado las generaciones correctamente...
Saludos
Maria Jimenez
I'm hoping, like Tomas, that someone can translate the phrase "de Limosna" for me. My Spanish is poor but I did understand most of what Tomas shared and I also have ancestors who were listed as Indio/India laborio/laboria but don't understand the phrase de Limosna.
Someone else in the group once said that if you had money then it didn't matter what your nationality was. I have a line in Jerez Zacatecas listed in the earlier records as Indio and Indio laborio but they married "Espanol" and within 1 generation they were classified as Espanoles. My Indio Garcia line married into the Caldera line and an Indian was never seen again.... I guess the lesson is just like today.. money talks.
Linda in Everett
Tomás Alejandro Villegas Gómez wrote:
En Español:
ponian al
final de las actas o fes de bautismo o matrimonio las leyenda "Se Bautizo de Limosna" ose "Caso de limosna", para dejar eso si, la evidencia de que estos
"indios laborios" eran muy pobres.
---------------
Limosna = alms, or dole. Since you are already on the internet, you might
want to bookmark this online dictionary:
It's free and finds most single words. Unfortunately, it doesn't recognize
any verb form but the infinitive, and sometimes it fails to find the plural
forms of words.
Good luck!
Karr
-----Original Message-----
From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Erlinda
Castanon-Long
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:07 AM
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Mas de Villegas
I'm hoping, like Tomas, that someone can translate the phrase "de Limosna"
for me. My Spanish is poor but I did understand most of what Tomas shared
and I also have ancestors who were listed as Indio/India laborio/laboria but
don't understand the phrase de Limosna.
Someone else in the group once said that if you had money then it didn't
matter what your nationality was. I have
"Limosna" means charity. When people (poor people) ask in the streets for
some coins they said "Me da mi limosna", "una limosnita por el amor de
Dios".
Also in the churchs the money they collect in the baskets are "La limosna"
"Se casó / bautizó de limosna" means they didn´t pay to the church for those
services.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karr Wolfe"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Mas de Villegas
Limosna = alms, or dole. Since you are already on the internet, you might
want to bookmark this online dictionary:
It's free and finds most single words. Unfortunately, it doesn't recognize
any verb form but the infinitive, and sometimes it fails to find the plural
forms of words.
Good luck!
Karr
-----Original Message-----
From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Erlinda
Castanon-Long
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:07 AM
To
Thank you Javier, It just occurred to me that this is more than just learning the meaning of a word, this explains a custom or tradition, I wonder if it still is recorded that way today in Mexico?
Linda in Everett
Javier Garbuno wrote:
"Limosna" means charity. When people (poor people) ask in the streets for
some coins they said "Me da mi limosna", "una limosnita por el amor de
Dios".
Also in the churchs the money they collect in the baskets are "La limosna"
"Se casó / bautizó de limosna" means they didn´t pay to the church for those
services.
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Karr, it's now bookmarked for future use.. I love this group and the willingness to share info to improve our knowledge and genealogy work.
thank you for taking the time to send it,
Linda in Everett
Karr Wolfe wrote:
Limosna = alms, or dole. Since you are already on the internet, you might
want to bookmark this online dictionary:
It's free and finds most single words. Unfortunately, it doesn't recognize
any verb form but the infinitive, and sometimes it fails to find the plural
forms of words.
Good luck!
Karr
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Linda, "de Limosna" means "of charity" One of your Villegas married
into my Saldivar line and I've got a whole bunch of relatives to share
with you for your Nuestros Ranchos Gedcom. Contact me, Marge:)
On Mar 26, 2008, at 10:06 AM, Erlinda Castanon-Long wrote:
> I'm hoping, like Tomas, that someone can translate the phrase "de
> Limosna" for me. My Spanish is poor but I did understand most of what
> Tomas shared and I also have ancestors who were listed as Indio/India
> laborio/laboria but don't understand the phrase de Limosna.
>
> Someone else in the group once said that if you had money then it
> didn't matter what your nationality was. I have a line in Jerez
> Zacatecas listed in the earlier records as Indio and Indio laborio but
> they married "Espanol" and within 1 generation they were classified as
> Espanoles. My Indio Garcia line married into the Caldera line and an
> Indian was never seen again.... I guess the lesson is just like
> today.. money talks.
>
>
Muy interesante, Tomás Alejandro
Sinceramente
Juan Ramón Alvarez
Tomás Alejandro Villegas Gómez wrote:
En Español:
Hola Gina:
Muchas Gracias por escribirme, antes que nada dime como te enterste
de mi y de mi busqueda por el apellido de mi varonia, Los Villegas, dime
tambien que edad tienesy donde y aque te dedicas.
Mira, desgraciadamente el apellido Villegas que mas me interesa es en
la linea que menos he avanzado porque desgraciadamente, como he visto en
mis investigaciones genealogicas,en tiempos pasados era mas evidente la
diferiencia de castas o niveles sociales ademas de las diferencias en la
posicion economica, por estas razones no he podido avanzar facilmente
en la genealogia de los Villegas, ya que avanzando hacia atras en el tiempo
"mis Villegas" de la region de los Altos de Jalisco, eran catalogados en las
diversas actas de matrimonio y bautizo como "Indios Laborios", casta
considerada "inferior" por ser considerados los indios naturales de la region
casi
Hola Tomas,
Creo que somos parientes por el lado de los Villegas:
Juan Jose Trinidad Villegas is my 5th great grandfather
Manuel Mariano Villegas (1773 - )son of Juan Jose Trinidad Villegas
Jose Apolonio (Apolonio-Polonio) Villegas Ramirez (1799 - 1897)son of Manuel Mariano Villegas
Valeriana Villegas Flores (1840 - )daughter of Jose Apolonio (Apolonio-Polonio) Villegas Ramirez
Maria Reyes Villegas daughter of Valeriana Villegas Flores
Feliciana Sanchez Reyes (1901 - )daughter of Maria Reyes Villegas
My mom: Morales Sanchez
Me: Maria Jimenez
where is this? any dates?
Linda in Boulder City, Nv.
________________________________
From: "mariadjimenez@earthlink.net"
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:04 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Villegas
Hola Tomas,
Creo que somos parientes por el lado de los Villegas:
Juan Jose Trinidad Villegas is my 5th great grandfather
Manuel Mariano Villegas (1773 - )son of Juan Jose Trinidad Villegas
Jose Apolonio (Apolonio-Polonio) Villegas Ramirez (1799 - 1897)son of Manuel Mariano Villegas
Valeriana Villegas Flores (1840 - )daughter of Jose Apolonio (Apolonio-Polonio) Villegas Ramirez
Maria Reyes Villegas daughter of Valeriana Villegas Flores
Feliciana Sanchez Reyes (1901 - )daughter of Maria Reyes Villegas
My mom: Morales Sanchez
Me: Maria Jimenez
Maps