TEST SITE - DO NOT USE - Development only

I just wanted to write something that I found out recently while 
reading Historia de la Conquista de la Nueva Espana, by Bernal Diaz 
del Castillo. Perhaps many of you know about this story, but anyways, 
it is about the first mexican mestizo. It was not, like I used to 
believe, from the union of Cortes and la Malinche, but rather of 
another espanol way before that.

The story says that when Cortes first landed on the Yucatan peninsula, 
he heard the news from the indian translators that two espaniards were 
slaves in that area. He sent for his rescue, and paid a ransom to 
their masters for their freedom. One of them was a priest called 
Jeronimo de Aguilar. As soon as he was freed, he went to look for the 
other espanol. This is what the book says:

"When he had read the letter and received the ransom, he carreid the 
beads delightedly to his master the Cacique an begged leave to depart. 
The Cacique gave him permission to go wherever he wished, and Aguilar 
set out for the place some fifteen miels aways where his comrade, 
Gonzalo Guerrero, was living. But on hearing the contents of the 
letter Gonzalo answered: 'Brother Aguilar, I am married and have three 
children, and they look on me as a Cacique here, and a captain in time 
of war. Go, and God's blessing be with you. But my face is tattooed 
and my ears are pierced. What would the Spaniards say if they saw me 
like this? And look how handsome these children of mine are! Please 
give me some of those beads you have brought, and I will tell them 
that my brothers have sent them from my own country.' And Gonzalo's 
Indian wife spoke to Aguilar very angrily in her own language: 'Why 
has this slave come here to call my husband away? Go off with you, and 
let us have no more of your talk.' Then Aguilar spoke to Gonzalo 
again, reminding him that he was a Christian and should not destroy 
his soul for the sake of an Indian woman. Besides, if he did not wish 
to desert his wife and children, he could take them with him. But 
neither words nor warnings could persuade Gonzalo to come. I believe 
he was a sailor and hailed from Palos."

I know, this story is not from our target area. I just wanted to let 
know those who did not know how the mestizaje in Mexico started.

P.s. Read this book. You'll love it, but be warned that there will be 
some words and phrases you will have trouble to understand. Have 
patience, it is worth it.

Not offended at all.

Of course I was brought up over here, not in mexico. I think we left there
for good when I was like 4 or 5.

But I was baptized as a baby a couple months old, then when I was like in
first grade I went to catacizim and then made my first communinon, then 13
or 14 my confirmation.

But I guess things are just different everywhere and with each family also.



              ~~glo~~






From: Smiley <smileysway2@...>
Reply-To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [ranchos] Re: Question about Confirmations, and Expuestos
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:56:55 -0700 (PDT)

...I'm not going to beg to differ with anyone, as I am NOT an authority on
this subject. I spoke in more detail with my MIL and she said that the child
is baptized when they are under 1 year old, then at the age of 3 or later,
they are then confirmed. The timeframe depends on the parents. If the
child has NOT been presented to the church before this time, then anyone can
present the child to the Father to have that child blessed (expuesto). My
MIL was born & raised in Mexico and up until a few years ago, lived there
her whole life. I did not mean to upset anyone with my reply so if I did, I
apologize...

Smiley



Irma GomezLucero <igomezlucero@...> wrote:

I'm with Maria on this. Confirmations in Mexico take place at about 2 years
old after the Baptism has been received.

In the USA, Confirmations take place or should I say used to take place
around 12-13 years of age when a child was old of enough to "Confirm" that
they wanted to be a member of the church--This has changed quite recently to
as early as 7 years of age.

Not so in Mexico--this  sacrament is usually received at the age of 2.

Expuesto means the child was left or abandoned on someone's doorstep with
parents unknown.

I made my confirmation in my teen years, not shure which but I think it was
like 13 or 14.

              ~~glo~~






From: Alicia Carrillo <alliecar@...>
Reply-To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ranchos] Question about Confirmations, and Expuestos
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:50:30 -0700 (PDT)

Chris, this all depends on which years you're looking for. In most parishes
this occured at the same time as baptism and in some parishes shortly there
after.

Alicia

Chris Pineda <pineda37@...> wrote:
Hey all,

I was hoping for some quick guidance. I requested and
received the baptism microfilm to determine the names
of the parents of my great-grandfather Nicanor Pineda,
born in Tlaltenango.

The problem is that this is the second time, where I
haven't found him for the timeframe in which he was
born.  This has led me to believe that perhaps he was
born in some other city around Tlaltenango and later
moved there.

Anyway, I'm requesting the marriage records for the
timeframe I think he was later married in Tlaltenango.
But I was also thinking that I could request the
Confirmation records but I really have no idea when
this usually takes place in someone's life -- I was
not raised Catholic.

On another note, I've noticed a page after each year
of baptism records that says "Expuestos" followed by a
series of names.  Does anyone know what this means?

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks,

Chris Pineda



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To add a note to the conversation about confirmations - I've read hundreds of confirmation records, both in Mexico and Puerto Rico, and they are not usually worth reading unless you're really desperate.  Most list no dates and no parents, and give just the child's name and the padrinos.  

And as for the expuestos, I've come across several who were expuesto en la casa de Don So and So; and I've found them being married 20 years later or included in a will, and listed as Don or Doñã -- hijo/hija natural de, or hijo/hija reconocido de ---, the natural children of the son or daughter or of the master of the house, but unacknowledged at the time of birth because, for people of a certain social status, to have a child out of wedlock wasn't socially unacceptable. 

I've come across several reference to baptisms in Mexico of children over three months old, and the priest explained in the record that the delay was caused by the fact that the rivers were so high that it prevented the child from being brought to the church for baptism in a timely manner.  He said something about the time limit, but wouldn't you know I can't find that note right now and I don't remember what the time limit was, but it was a matter of weeks.  

I've found only one child, Jose Victoriano RADILLO born en este Villa de Autlan Aug 1834 and baptized Oct 1836.  The priest specifically states that he was 2 years, 2 months old, and an hijo natural of Jesus RADILLO.  This is the ONLY case of a deliberately delayed Baptism I've ever come across.  Perhaps he was hidden away, or sick, or even dying so they finally baptized him?  I've often wondered, but never found him later. 

Gloria Delgado

Hola Chris

Well I was raised Catholic in Mexico. I got my confirmation when I 
was 13 or 14, I do not remember exactly. The same thing happened to 
my brother who is 3 years older. However, my oldest brothers and 
sisters, as well as my parents, were confirmed on their childhood 
soon after they were born. Once, I asked my grandma why I did not 
have my confirmation when I was baptized, and she told me that in the 
past, it was a common practice to confirm children before their 
second birthday; however, some priests adviced the parents no to get 
the confirmation at that age and wait until the child was 13 years 
old, so that he/she could be able to understand the real meaning of 
confirmation. I remember that I had to go to saturday classes to 
prepare for my first communion for a couple years, and an extra year 
of classes to get my confirmation. 

After that year of studying, I received my confirmation from the 
bishop of Ciudad Guzman who put some oil on my forehead and then 
slapped me on the face. :) For those who are not familiar with some 
catholic traditions, this might sound like abuse, but normally, when 
receiving the confirmation at 13, the bishop (not the parish priest, 
but the actual bishop) puts some oil on his thumb, then he puts it on 
the forehead of the person, gives him the sign of the cross, and then 
he gives them a small slap, according to how he thinks the kid has 
behaved in the past 13 years. Mine did not really hurt, it kind of 
had a paternal touch, but some of my friends received good slaps!



--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Chris Pineda <pineda37@y...> wrote:
> I appreciate all the help people have given me on my
> questions. 
> 
> In regard to the 'Expuestos" question, I did notice
> that what followed the 'Expuestos' heading were a
> series of names without last names or parental
> information (unlike the regular baptism records). So
> the notion that these children were abandoned makes
> sense. This was for baptism records in the 1850s for
> Monterrey, Nuevo Leon.
> 
> As for the Confirmations question, the timeframe I was
> looking was for in the Tlaltenango records was 1895 or
> so, so if I find anything I'll be sure to let you
> know. 
> 
> Again, I really appreciate all the emails.
> 
> Chris Pineda
> 
> --- readysetgo95814 <nena@a...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > No offense taken.  We are all here to learn and

I appreciate all the help people have given me on my
questions. 

In regard to the 'Expuestos" question, I did notice
that what followed the 'Expuestos' heading were a
series of names without last names or parental
information (unlike the regular baptism records). So
the notion that these children were abandoned makes
sense. This was for baptism records in the 1850s for
Monterrey, Nuevo Leon.

As for the Confirmations question, the timeframe I was
looking was for in the Tlaltenango records was 1895 or
so, so if I find anything I'll be sure to let you
know. 

Again, I really appreciate all the emails.

Chris Pineda

--- readysetgo95814 <nena@...> wrote:

> 
> No offense taken.  We are all here to learn and
> benefit from each 
> other's experiences.  I myself was born in
> Guadalajara and I was 
> confirmed shortly after I was baptized. Within a
> year of my 
> baptism.  So was everyone I knew. I think Chris'
> question was 
> related to an ancestor so I answered it according to
> the timeframe 
> Chris was referring to (1800's or so) for a
> gggreat-grandfather.
> 
> The records I have examined for expuestos are pretty
> clear in the 
> language they use that the child was abandoned. 
> They list no 
> parents' names and the child is not given a surname.
>  They are also 
> very specific as to the location where the child was
> left.  Such as, 
> being left on the doorstep of Don Ygnacio Sánchez. 
> They also say 
> the child is being baptized, not just blessed. 
> Thus, you find them 
> in the baptismal books, as Chris did.
> 
> I also do not profess to be an authority on the
> subject, but only 
> speak from my own limited experience.
> 
> Maria
> 
> --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Smiley
> <smileysway2@y...> wrote:
> > ...I'm not going to beg to differ with anyone, as
> I am NOT an 
> authority on this subject. I spoke in more detail
> with my MIL and 
> she said that the child is baptized when they are
> under 1 year old, 
> then at the age of 3 or later, they are then
> confirmed.  The 
> timeframe depends on the parents.  If the child has
> NOT been 
> presented to the church before this time, then
> anyone can present 
> the child to the Father to have that child blessed
> (expuesto).  My 
> MIL was born & raised in Mexico and up until a few
> years ago, lived 

No offense taken.  We are all here to learn and benefit from each 
other's experiences.  I myself was born in Guadalajara and I was 
confirmed shortly after I was baptized. Within a year of my 
baptism.  So was everyone I knew. I think Chris' question was 
related to an ancestor so I answered it according to the timeframe 
Chris was referring to (1800's or so) for a gggreat-grandfather.

The records I have examined for expuestos are pretty clear in the 
language they use that the child was abandoned.  They list no 
parents' names and the child is not given a surname.  They are also 
very specific as to the location where the child was left.  Such as, 
being left on the doorstep of Don Ygnacio Sánchez.  They also say 
the child is being baptized, not just blessed.  Thus, you find them 
in the baptismal books, as Chris did.

I also do not profess to be an authority on the subject, but only 
speak from my own limited experience.

Maria

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Smiley <smileysway2@y...> wrote:
> ...I'm not going to beg to differ with anyone, as I am NOT an 
authority on this subject. I spoke in more detail with my MIL and 
she said that the child is baptized when they are under 1 year old, 
then at the age of 3 or later, they are then confirmed.  The 
timeframe depends on the parents.  If the child has NOT been 
presented to the church before this time, then anyone can present 
the child to the Father to have that child blessed (expuesto).  My 
MIL was born & raised in Mexico and up until a few years ago, lived 
there her whole life.  I did not mean to upset anyone with my reply 
so if I did, I apologize...
>  
> Smiley
>  
> 
> 
> Irma GomezLucero <igomezlucero@c...> wrote:
> I'm with Maria on this.  Confirmations in Mexico take place at 
about 2 years old after the Baptism has been received.  
>  
> In the USA, Confirmations take place or should I say used to take 
place around 12-13 years of age when a child was old of enough 
to "Confirm" that they wanted to be a member of the church--This has 
changed quite recently to as early as 7 years of age.    
>  
> Not so in Mexico--this  sacrament is usually received at the age 
of 2.  
>  
> Expuesto means the child was left or abandoned on someone's 
doorstep with parents unknown.  
>  
> Irma
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------

http://groups.msn.com/LAGUNAGRANDEZACATECAS

Este espacio esta dedicado a las personas de "Laguna Grande", Monte
Escobedo, Valparaiso, Tepetongo, Huejucar, Jalpa, Etc.

well i just got back from the beach and promptly delayed in
unsubscribing one but proceeded to unsubscribe 5 individuals. I was
actually very happy that I got as much response as I did from those that
had not submitted their work. . .kinda makes me feel like people are
finding value in what we are doing in Ranchos and making and effort to
stay part of the group. I just want to thank everyone for their
participation and interest in the group. I started Ranchos to help me
and you all have been there ready to help many many times. thanks,

joseph

ps: Here is the letter I sent out to the 5 members

----------------

if you feel I've made a mistake contact me. otherwise you have been
unsubscribed from the Ranchos Group.

Joseph Puentes
Owner/Moderator

Cantul@...


elnativo@...

Sara_P_Sanders@...
tcdennis_mm@...
toyserrato@...

Hi Chris,

Confirmations usually occurred within the first year of the child's 
life.  Shortly after baptism. 

Expuestos means children who were abandoned in front of somebody's 
doorstep.  Sometimes it was a church, often times it was a private 
residence. 

Maria

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Chris Pineda <pineda37@y...> wrote:
> Hey all,
> 
> I was hoping for some quick guidance. I requested and
> received the baptism microfilm to determine the names
> of the parents of my great-grandfather Nicanor Pineda,
> born in Tlaltenango.   
> 
> The problem is that this is the second time, where I
> haven't found him for the timeframe in which he was
> born.  This has led me to believe that perhaps he was
> born in some other city around Tlaltenango and later
> moved there. 
> 
> Anyway, I'm requesting the marriage records for the
> timeframe I think he was later married in Tlaltenango.
>  But I was also thinking that I could request the
> Confirmation records but I really have no idea when
> this usually takes place in someone's life -- I was
> not raised Catholic. 
> 
> On another note, I've noticed a page after each year
> of baptism records that says "Expuestos" followed by a
> series of names.  Does anyone know what this means?
> 
> Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks,
> 
> Chris Pineda
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
> http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide

Hey all,

I was hoping for some quick guidance. I requested and
received the baptism microfilm to determine the names
of the parents of my great-grandfather Nicanor Pineda,
born in Tlaltenango.  

The problem is that this is the second time, where I
haven't found him for the timeframe in which he was
born.  This has led me to believe that perhaps he was
born in some other city around Tlaltenango and later
moved there.

Anyway, I'm requesting the marriage records for the
timeframe I think he was later married in Tlaltenango.
But I was also thinking that I could request the
Confirmation records but I really have no idea when
this usually takes place in someone's life -- I was
not raised Catholic.

On another note, I've noticed a page after each year
of baptism records that says "Expuestos" followed by
a
series of names.  Does anyone know what this means?

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks,

Chris Pineda


           
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide

Hey all,

I was hoping for some quick guidance. I requested and
received the baptism microfilm to determine the names
of the parents of my great-grandfather Nicanor Pineda,
born in Tlaltenango.   

The problem is that this is the second time, where I
haven't found him for the timeframe in which he was
born.  This has led me to believe that perhaps he was
born in some other city around Tlaltenango and later
moved there. 

Anyway, I'm requesting the marriage records for the
timeframe I think he was later married in Tlaltenango.
 But I was also thinking that I could request the
Confirmation records but I really have no idea when
this usually takes place in someone's life -- I was
not raised Catholic. 

On another note, I've noticed a page after each year
of baptism records that says "Expuestos" followed by a
series of names.  Does anyone know what this means?

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks,

Chris Pineda


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide

I saw the special on Frida Kahlo on the PBS station
from Los Angeles the other night.  Like her
husband,she also became a famous artist. But married
to Diego Rivera probably did not help her mental and
physical state of being.  

Alberto.
   

  
--- Santos Luna <mistyriver123@...> wrote:
> Kahlo, Frida 
> 
> if (window.yzq_a == null) document.write("");if
> (window.yzq_a){yzq_a('p',
>
'P=HZp3aELaR6OZuxYTQR.t.s2gRHrD8EJdpGgABYY7&T=148javpbp%2fX%3d1113433192%2fE%3d42540650%2fR%3dedu%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d1.1%2fW%3ddefault%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d685909464%2fG%3dCnVzCgo-%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3dAC46DA42');yzq_a('a',
>
'&U=139i60a5b%2fN%3djEQcfULaRY0-%2fC%3d317604.5490428.6584003.2735702%2fD%3dLREC%2fB%3d2327252');}
>  (fr#275;´dä kä´l#333;) , 1907?54, Mexican painter,
> b. Coyoacán. As a result of an accident at age 15,
> Kahlo turned her attention from a medical career to
> painting. Drawing on her personal experiences, her
> works are often shocking in their stark portrayal of
> pain and the harsh lives of women. Fifty-five of her
> 143 paintings are self-portraits incorporating a
> personal symbolism complete with graphic anatomical
> references. She was also influenced by indigenous
> Mexican culture, aspects of which she portrayed in
> bright colors, with a mixture of realism and
> symbolism. Her paintings attracted the attention of
> the artist Diego Rivera, whom she later married.
> Although Kahlo's work is sometimes classified as
> surrealist and she did exhibit several times with
> European surrealists, she herself disputed the
> label. Her preoccupation with female themes and the
> figurative candor with which she expressed them made
> her something of a feminist cult figure in the last
> decades of the 20th cent. Some of
>  her work is exhibited at the Frida Kahlo Museum,
> situated in her birthplace and subsequent home in
> suburban Mexico City.
> 
> PBS in San Francisco, recently aired "the Life &
> Times of Frida Kahlo", which is now available in
> DVD. Of interest to this researcher are the photos,
> and film of people, and places during her life
> time...which,  were also the times of some of our
> ancestors.
> 
> Helyn de Castaneda
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 		
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Make Yahoo! your home page   

__________________________________________________