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Hola,

Efectivamente, los padres de Juan Isidro son Francisco de Villalobos y
María Carrillo y los de Anna son Joseph Jiménez y María Rodríguez por lo
que dice el registro matrimonial.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15184-31891-23?cc=1804458

Los nombres de los padres son iguales en la información matrimonial
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15191-45604-88?cc=1804458

Eso deja un poco de duda si son si son Francisco Manuel de Villalobos y
Casillas casado con Anna Carrillo de Sandi y Rodríquez el 5 de junio 1741
en Nochistlán por ser Anna y no María Carrillo. Aún esa pareja posiblemente
son los padres de Juan Isidro especialmente porque dijo ser de 28 años de
edad en la información matrimonial dando la fecha de nacimiento alrededor
de 1741 que es al año que casaron sus posibles padres.

No he podido encontrar la información matrimonial de Francisco Manuel de
Villalobos y Casillas en Nochistlán para ver que edad reportó tener. Falta
buscar una información

Efectivamente, los padres de Juan Isidro son Francisco de Villalobos y María Carrillo y los de Anna son Joseph Jiménez y María Rodríguez por lo que dice el registro matrimonial. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15184-31891-23?cc=1804458

Los nombres de los padres son iguales en la información matrimonial https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15191-45604-88?cc=1804458

Eso deja un poco de duda si son si son Francisco Manuel de Villalobos y Casillas casado con Anna Carrillo de Sandi y Rodríquez el 5 de junio 1741 en Nochistlán por ser Anna y no María Carrillo. Aún esa pareja posiblemente son los padres de Juan Isidro especialmente porque dijo ser de 28 años de edad en la información matrimonial dando la fecha de nacimiento alrededor de 1741 que es al año que casaron sus posibles padres.

No he podido encontrar la información matrimonial de Francisco Manuel de Villalobos y Casillas en Nochistlán para ver que edad reportó tener. Falta buscar una información matrimonial en

Hello everyone,

So much useful information was presented in these Michel posts that I have had to read and re-read them several times to process all the information. When I first posted on this subject I believed I was not a direct descendant of Francisco Michel Ordones. After researching all this information, it turns out I am a direct descendant after all!

Some of the information was hypothetical and I would like to discuss that. Sergio, you pointed out that you believe Francisco Michel who was married to Juana Betancur Ruiz, married a second time, possibly to Luisa de Gusman. While it's definitely possible he was married twice, why do you suspect that's the case? The baptism you provided for Antonio Michel (son of Juan Michel and Luisa de Gusman) is an interesting clue, even though the father's name is noted as Juan Michel. The problem is that the date of the baptism is 1679. If we accept Manny's data that Francisco Michel, son of Juan Michel and Graciana Corona, was born in 12

Hi Deedra,

I am not a direct descendant of either Francisco Michel Ordones, but the Lopez Bueso line plays a major role in my genealogy. I too had pains trying to sort out these 2 couples, but maybe I can help slow the swirl.
Michaela Lopez Bueso was married to your Francisco Michel Ordones (1). She was the daughter of Nicolas Lopez Bueso and Nicolasa Guerrero de Ocon. She was born February 1661 in Sayula and died April 15, 1719 in Tecolotlan. Children are as follows:
1. Juana Michel Lopez Bueso married to Felix de Fonseca Feb 5, 1704 in Tecolotlan. Felix de Fonseca was the son of Juan de Fonseca and Juana Contreras.
2. Maria Michel Lopez Bueso born 1689 in Tuxcacuesco, married Pedro Ramirez Dec 14, 1711 in Tecolotlan. Pedro Ramirez born 1683 in Sayula was the son of Pedro Ramirez and Damiana de Castaneda.
3. Asencio Michel born 1692 in Tecolotlan.
4. Domingo Michel born 1693 in Tuxcacuesco.
5. Regina Michel born 1696 in Tecolotlan, married Pedro Nicolas Uribe May 9, 1728 in

Hola a todos,

He estado algo ausente de la Genealogía estos meses pero ocasionalmente reviso este foro y me encontré la discusión sobre este tema que esta relacionado con mis antepasados Michel.

Me parece muy valiosa la información que han aportado hasta ahora, pero tengo una duda que espero alguien pueda resolverme...De acuerdo a los datos que tengo Juan Michel Ordoñez y Graciana Corona tuvieron por hijo a Francisco Michel Ordoñez que casó con Juana de Betancur y Ruiz y ellos son los padres de Juana, Nicolasa y Salvador. La duda es que a Tomás Michel esposo de Agustina de Vargas-Machuca y Escobar, lo tengo como hijo de Francisco Michel Ordoñez y Corona pero a su madre con el nombre de Luisa de Guzmán. Entonces Francisco casó en dos ocasiones? Tomás y los demás Michel son en realidad medios hermanos? Y de ser así sabemos algo sobre la familia de Luisa de Guzmán?

Gracias y saludos.
Enrique Agraz

Gil Topete

So how does this record fit into the equation for Francisco Michel married to Joana de Vetancor? Their son Salvador is marrying into the lopez-Hueso family in 1688.

See bottom right-side record:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18715-13486-33?cc=1874591&wc…

Godparents look to be Joa Michel and Maria/Magdalina de Cobarrubias.

Gil Topete
Not sure if you picked over these bones already that provide more indirect clues...I am also related to Captain Juan de Fonseca and his other son married Juana Lopez Boeso, the daughter of Francisco Michel Ordonez and Micaela Lopez Boeso (see bottom right continued on next page:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18715-13491-42?cc=1874591&wc…

But also, based on the original post, Cristobal Ordonez had several son's one also named Francisco much earlier...I am surprised that with so many sons and daughters of Micaela and Francisco that none of their children's baptism records are not revealing better clues?

Thank you for your other links. Does your information substantiate my guess that Manuala Lopez-Bueso had a brother Joseph Cayetano Lopez Bueso? His name in one form or the other is listed as the godfather of two of Manuelas children: Barbara and Antonia Lugarda. Know that your information Provided Gaspar has Manuela's

RJ Quiralta

Well they are definitely two different people, time frame says it all, in the first couple, does the kids records mention the full composed name on the parents? the burial just says Michel for him and Hueso for her. Either case I would say that both parties are likely families since the ones in Autlan were from Tecocolotlan too, meaning that the two Franciscos were like you suggested Uncle-Nephew and the wives were likely related too, (Aunt-Niece, Cousins, etc).

Hi Emilie,
I descend from your Magdalenos, and this family can get confusing because they use multiple surnames and given names. But, those are not the correct parents of your Bernabé Magdaleno (de Don Diego).  This dispensa shows that Ildefonso González and María Antonia Magdaleno were second cousins and received a waiver in the 3rd degree and it shows both descend from (Juan) Don Diego Magdaleno and (Michaela) Rosa de Aguirre (Mendoza)/Limón:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18411-50259-77?cc=1874591&wc…

As you can see from the dispensa, your Bernabé Magdaleno is the son of (Juan) Joseph Magdaleno and Isabel Limón. And, (Juan) Joseph Magdaleno is the son of (Juan) Don Diego Magdaleno and (Michaela) Rosa de Aguirre(Mendoza)Limón.

Bernabé Magdaleno (de Don Diego) married María Gertrudis Pérez on 29 Oct 1752 in Santa María de los Lagos, Jalisco, México:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18560-25051-6?cc=1874591&wc=…

Emilie,

Is your Bernabé Magdaleno married to Gertrudis Pérez?

Paige

Emilie,

Is your Bernabé Magdaleno married to Gertrudis Pérez?

Paige

Hi Danny,

No problem, and welcome to the group. I would make sure to always go to the website, it's definitely easier to follow. Plus, sometimes you won't receive all the emails. Yes, Josepha de Aguirre and Josepha Magdaleno are the same person. The naming practices in those times were different and as you get more familiar with the region you'll notice women would often use the name of their mother or grandmother. The following dispensa shows that Josepha Magdaleno is the daughter of Simón Magdaleno and Josefa Guzmán and that Simón Magdaleno is the son of Diego Magdaleno and Mariana de Aguirre:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18410-28762-7?cc=1874591&wc=…
 
And, this dispensa shows that Josefa Guzmán is the daughter of Melchor de Guzmán and Jacinta Gutiérrez Coronado:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18413-95547-28?cc=1874591&wc…

Christopher de Cuellar

Hi Armando,
I agree, I think the age of Juan Antonio de Rubalcava is wrong on the IM. I have him as 34 years old at the time he married 20 year old Isabel Macías, based on this baptism with Pedro Alonso de los Hinojos as his padrino: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11662-70255-26?cc=1502404&…
I guess this Juan Antonio de Rubalcava could've died and they had another Juan Antonio de Rubalcava born some years later, but, certainly not as late as the IM suggests. For now, I'm using this one.
Chris

Hi Armando,
Thanks, I wanted to be sure. I think then that this is the baptism for the Isabel Macías that's married to Juan Antonio de Rubalcava:  https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11678-32285-58?cc=1502404&…
I just noticed her padrino is Juan Manuel de Trillo, and his son George de Trillo is the padrino of her son Guillermo de Rubalcava.
Chris

My husband's ancestors were related by marriage to the Macias, and his ancestors also included some Rubalcabas. They were all from Encarnacion de Diaz. Have you put your family tree in Nuestros Ranchos? See my trees under Emilie Garcia. My husband is Antonio Garcia

Congratulations on getting hooked on genealogy. It will be a lifelong hobby, and you will always love it.

Many of us wish we had started at your age, and wish we had interviewed all our eldest living relatives for more information before they took it to the grave. Get photos, stories, any documents they have.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 06:49:42 -0800
> From: dcalonso97@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Introduction and information on Ysabel Macias
>
> Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum
>
> I'm Danny and I've been researching my family for about a month. It started
> as a school project but then I became really interested after it was over.
> My Spanish

Hello Danny,

It says -

"En la villa de Aguascalientes en veinte y siete
de Mayo de mi setecientos sesenta y cuatro
años habiendo precedido las diligencias
acostumbradas prevenidas por derecho
leído se las amonestaciones dispuestas por
el Santo Concilio de Trento en la Iglesia
Parroquial en tres días festivos inter
missarum solemnia que lo fueron el seis
trece y el quince del corriente mes y no
habiendo resultado de ellas impedimento
alguno como teniente de Br
Matías Joseph asistió al matrimonio
que en mi presencia por palabras
de presentes celebraron Juan Antonio de
Robalcaba español originario y vecino de
esta villa en La Estansuela hijo legítimo de
Miguel de Robalcaba difunto y de María
de Villalobos con Isabel Macías española
originaria y vecina de esta villa en La
Villita hija legitima de Joseph Manuel
Macías difunto y de María Josefa de Aguilar"

The rest is very hard to read.

I haven't found a marriage record for Miguel González de Rubalcava and María Villalobos y Escoto

They are also supposed to change the subject of the email so it doesn't have "General Digest, Vol such and such"

Welcome, Danny!
You are so fortunate to start your interest at such a young age! I envy you.
Some advice that I wish was given to me:
This is a fantastic way to learn Spanish so don't just scan records for the information you want. Read the whole thing. You will find interesting tidbits of information in the "meat" of some documents.
Translate the whole record. What is not important now, may be a clue later. This includes noting padrinos (godparents), ranches, etc. Back then padrinos were mostly family. My personal experience is that I kept finding records for the family of Santiago Mora but he was not connected to my family. He was, however, frequently a padrino to my documented family. I made a separate tree for Santiago and his family and later found the common ancestor. As soon as I found this, I added 4 generations of Moras to my tree.
Note your sources!!!!!!!! Years later and I am still adding sources because I was so anxious in the beginning that I skipped this step.REGRET!

Juan Antonio de Robalcaba native and resident of this town in Estanzuela legitimate son of Miguel de Rovalcaba , deceased and Maria Isabel de Villalobos Legitima Daughter of Joseph Manuel Masias de Fuente and Maria Josepha de Aguirre

These classes by Angel are not available online.

> 2. Re: The Basque connection to New Mexican Families (Joseph
> > Puentes)
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 21:17:26 -0500
> > > From: "Joseph Puentes"
> > > To: ,
>
> > > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] FW: The Basque connection to New
> Mexican
> > > Families (Haplogroup R1b1)
> > > Message-ID: 0ca901d0377b$e68d0110$b3a70330$@rr.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Angel R. Cervantes [mailto:angelrcervantes@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2015 9:07 PM
> > > To: undisclosed-recipients:
> > > Subject: The Basque connection to New Mexican Families (Haplogroup
> > > R1b1)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I would like to invite you to attend a lecture on the Basque
> > > connection
> > to New Mexican Families (Haplogroup R1b1). If you would like to learn
> > more about the mark this ancient civilization made on the Iberian
> >

C M = Ciudadano Mexicano

2015-02-06 22:44 GMT-06:00 Beverly Ewald :

>
>
> I have recently come across some baptismal records that have the infant's
> names, followed by the initials C. M. Can anyone tell me what the C. M.
> stands for? Thanks.
>
>
>
> See this image:
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-20465-15470-77?cc=1860864…
> C48-SM9:167670301,167670302,168112901
>

C M = Ciudadano Mexicano

2015-02-06 22:44 GMT-06:00 Beverly Ewald :

>
>
> I have recently come across some baptismal records that have the infant's
> names, followed by the initials C. M. Can anyone tell me what the C. M.
> stands for? Thanks.
>
>
>
> See this image:
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-20465-15470-77?cc=1860864…
> C48-SM9:167670301,167670302,168112901
>

i'm not sure either, i would love to find a database on that subject

This book is available through the used books section of Amazom.com. Prices and conditions seem reasonable.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

My ancestors were also from Zapotlan el Grande (Ciudad Guzman).
My Great Grandfather x7, Antonio Rodriguez married Theresa Ramires July 06, 1706, Zapotlan El Grande. They had a son by the name of Thomas who decided to carry on his mothers surname "Ramires". Thomas is also identified as "hijo legitimo" de Antonio Rodriguez.

Not sure if carrying on your mothers surname was custom throughout Mexico but in some areas it was. I also have read that if a couple had many children it was expected for at least one of them to carry on the mothers surname. We will let the experts comment and educate us on that.

I just wanted to also add that I am a participant in the Family Tree DNA project and have my results to share with anyone. My YDNA is I-M223 I2a2a (I believe its the same as I2b1). Wish more people from Southern Jalisco would participate in the DNA project.

I am a native of Southern California and very familiar with the San Fernando Valley. I got married in Encino, CA. I have

That's interesting information. I'm willing to help with the DNA results. However, there is a limitation on what can be determined based on the type and level of testing and how well documented the trees of the matches are and how much Y-DNA SNP testing the matches have done. The Y-DNA STR test should be at least 37 markers, but 67 markers are much better, to find matches. If there are no matches then the results will be limited to providing information on the haplogroup which would likely need additional SNP testing for anything conclusive for a region and time period for when the SNP first appeared based on ancient remains and/or calculated estimates.

Any autosomal testing would be limited to ethnicity results since that too long ago to prove a connection to any families in Jalisco.

Information from mtDNA results depend on the level of testing, haplogroup, matches, and trees of the matches. If it isn't Full Sequence testing it will be harder to find matches of significance. If the