TEST SITE - DO NOT USE - Development only

Dear Alicia and Emilie:
Thank you so very much for sharing your experiences and insights 
regarding cultural identity.
Your remininiscences remind me of one of the first "rules" of 
genealogy - to always start with what you know best, yourself. For 
myself, it is advice I have NOT followed, though I am always quick to 
remind others. Perhaps one day ;)
I grew up in the 40's & 50's in southern California. Although I am 
sure I heard a lot of Spanish at home before starting school, and 
probably spoke with those family members who spoke no English, once I 
started school, English was all I spoke, and English was all my 
parents spoke to me, probably recalling punishments, etc, for 
speaking Spanish in school when they were growing up. So I am not 
bilingual, and I married a gringo (Anglo mongrel, with possibly some 
Cherokee). We have 5  children - three with a Spanish middle name, 
and two with first names, Laura and Elena. (The other middle names 
are Maria Silveria, Joaquin, and Miguel). They were all born in VA, 
at a time when there were very few Mexicanos, Latinos, or Hispanics. 
It has been a strange ride trying to transmit the culture. As I have 
mentioned in previous messages, I trying to help the next generation -
 my grandchildren - they like to help me set up the ofrenda for Dia 
de los Muertos (on the porch). Ooops - have gone on too long.
Thanks again Alicia and Emilie. 

Natalie in VA

Well said Ed, I had heard that before... maybe part of my problem is 
a feeling of unwarrented guilt, I'm not even sure of what!  All my 
ancestors ever asked of us was not to sully the name Castanon, no 
more no less.. not a word about where we came from but more about 
where we are going.. thank you for your well thought out input.
Linda in Everett

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Edward Serros" <ed@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Erlinda Castanon-Long"
> <longsjourney@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I want to thank everyone for the input on double surnames...Many 
of
> us did not marry Hispanic but would have kept our 
> > maiden name regardless. Just like someone said, it's a matter of 
> > family pride..
> > 
> > One more question.. which is 'politically' correct to designate 
our 
> > nationality of origin if we or our ancestors were from Mexico... 
> > Hispanic, Latino, Mexican-American or American-Mexican?  I find 
I 
> > really upset some people when I call myself Hispanic. I'm told 
that 
> > excludes my Indio blood... People ask me what my nationality is 
> > because I'm just brown enough to not be Anglo but have light 
green 
> > eyes, my sister get's the same thing and she has blue eyes and 
> > freckles. I still laugh when told I don't look like a Mexican... 
what 
> > does a Mexican look like!!!!
> > 
> > Linda in Everett
> 
> Linda,
> 
> I have debated for a number of days responding to this and I wish 
to
> offend no one. In trying to figure out what to say I decided that I
> would simply try to bring attention to a book published in 1919 
that
> struggled with the idea of cultural identity, amongst many other
> things. The book was originally written in Spanish by Vicente 
Blasco
> Inañez. It was called "Los Cuatoro Jinetes de Apocalipsis" and is 
more
> commonly known by its English translation "The Four Horsemen of the
> Apocalypse". Ibañez does a fine job in presenting the confusion 
which
> may arise in subsequent generations when the "founder" moves from 
one
>  country/culture (Europe) to another country/culture (Argentina). 
The
> conundrum is presented in a very entertaining manner. Needless to 
say,
> in typical latin fashion, the end is death.
> 
> In the book one of the characters, Julio Madariaga, an immigrant

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Erlinda Castanon-Long"
<longsjourney@y...> wrote:
>
> I want to thank everyone for the input on double surnames...Many of
us did not marry Hispanic but would have kept our 
> maiden name regardless. Just like someone said, it's a matter of 
> family pride..
> 
> One more question.. which is 'politically' correct to designate our 
> nationality of origin if we or our ancestors were from Mexico... 
> Hispanic, Latino, Mexican-American or American-Mexican?  I find I 
> really upset some people when I call myself Hispanic. I'm told that 
> excludes my Indio blood... People ask me what my nationality is 
> because I'm just brown enough to not be Anglo but have light green 
> eyes, my sister get's the same thing and she has blue eyes and 
> freckles. I still laugh when told I don't look like a Mexican... what 
> does a Mexican look like!!!!
> 
> Linda in Everett

Linda,

I have debated for a number of days responding to this and I wish to
offend no one. In trying to figure out what to say I decided that I
would simply try to bring attention to a book published in 1919 that
struggled with the idea of cultural identity, amongst many other
things. The book was originally written in Spanish by Vicente Blasco
Inañez. It was called "Los Cuatoro Jinetes de Apocalipsis" and is more
commonly known by its English translation "The Four Horsemen of the
Apocalypse". Ibañez does a fine job in presenting the confusion which
may arise in subsequent generations when the "founder" moves from one
 country/culture (Europe) to another country/culture (Argentina). The
conundrum is presented in a very entertaining manner. Needless to say,
in typical latin fashion, the end is death.

In the book one of the characters, Julio Madariaga, an immigrant
Basque, makes a fortune in the Americas (Argentina) and has many
children, legitimate and illegitimate, brown and fair. His son-in-law
is an immigrant Frenchman, Marcelo Denoyers, who says something in
relation to cultural identity which I will never forget. You or others
in this group may not necessarily agree with it but I quote the
paragraph from the book.

"Where a man makes his fortune and raises his family, there is his
true country," he said sententiously, remembering Madariaga.

Reread the quote. For what it is worth, Desnoyer's rich son returned
to France to find a majestic country, cultural isolation, personal

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Susana Leniski" <susyfarias@c...> wrote:
>
> I was looking at the census data of Dr. Platt. (the links is in
Ranchos). Some of the films that he talks about  for zacatecas and
Jalisco are as follows:
> 
>  Has anyone seen any of these films? What  type of information do
you find in them?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Susana Leniski
> 

Susana,

I have looked at a few of these. All of the ones I saw were not
indexed so you have to have the patience of a saint (so what is new in
genealgoy research) to find useful information. I did not find any of
my relatives but my time was limited given my sometimes very impatient
personality. What is useful is that you can see who was living with
whom, e.g. family nucleus, which included other relatives or whomever
with different surnames. Ages were also given but no data on parents,
grandparents, origins. Some of the towns were listed by street names
with residents of such.

As with most census records the government is simply doing head counts
for tax purposes, not genealogy purposes. If you have the time and
fair information where your relatives lived, then it may be worth your
while.

Ed

thanks Janet. This is fun. we should try to make the list 20-30 items
long. I've added a few at the end.

joseph

Janet Valeria Iglesias wrote:

1. No man is truly well-educated unless he learns to spell his name
at least three different ways within the same document. I resolve to
give the appearance of being extremely well-educated in the coming
year.

2. I resolve to see to it that all of my children will have the same
names that my ancestors have used for six generations in a row.

3. My age is no one's business but my own. I hereby resolve to never
list the same age or birth year twice on any document.

4. I resolve to have each of my children baptized in a different
church -- either in a different faith or in a different parish.
Every third child will not be baptized at all or will be baptized by
an itinerant minister who keeps no records.

5. I resolve to move to a new town, new county, or new state at
least once every 10 years -- just before those pesky enumerators
come around asking silly questions.

6. I will make every attempt to reside in counties and towns where
no vital records are maintained or where the courthouse burns down
every few years.

7. I resolve to join an obscure religious cult that does not believe
in record keeping or in participating in military service.

8. When the tax collector comes to my door, I'll loan him my pen,
which has been dipped in rapidly fading blue ink.

9. I resolve that if my beloved wife Mary should die, I will marry
another Mary.

9a I promise to name every male child Jose __________ and every female
child Maria _____________

If you see your email address in this list you need to immediately email
me at: makas@... If I don't receive communication from you I'll be
forced to unsubscribe you from the Ranchos group on Jan 31, 2006. I
understand there are good reasons why you haven't submitted your
genealogy yet and all I want to do is open a dialog so we can discuss
this subject.

Sincerely,

Joseph Puentes Owner/Moderator

=============================

Si miras su direccion del internet aqui manda me un email immediamente
a: makas@.... Si no oigo de usted voy cortar su subscripcion del
grupo Ranchos el dia 31 de Enero de 2006. Entiendo que hay razones
buenos porque no has mandado su arbol genealogico y nomas quiero entrar
en conversacion de esto.

Sinceramente,

Joseph Puentes Dueño/Mediador



   amador_flore...     zapOgram@...

   artalbec     artalbec@...

   cristal828     cristal828@...

   ftworthtexgo... TexGonzales@...

   hugz803     hugz803@...

   jmdldsmty     jmdldsmty@...

   josealfredod...     jjetmech01@...

   laredotxkid     Chuymben1233@...

   marledez     marledez@...

   melaniapezzolla     melaniapezzolla@...

   permotio     orlawyer@...

   spainireland  spainirelandengland@...

   swtchic517     annie517@...

   tia_chutis     ice__princess@...

I thought this was hilarious. Just wanted to share!



1. No man is truly well-educated unless he learns to spell his name
at least three different ways within the same document. I resolve to
give the appearance of being extremely well-educated in the coming
year.

2. I resolve to see to it that all of my children will have the same

names that my ancestors have used for six generations in a row.

3. My age is no one's business but my own. I hereby resolve to never
list the same age or birth year twice on any document.

4. I resolve to have each of my children baptized in a different
church -- either in a different faith or in a different parish.
Every third child will not be baptized at all or will be baptized by
an itinerant minister who keeps no records.

5. I resolve to move to a new town, new county, or new state at
least once every 10 years -- just before those pesky enumerators
come around asking silly questions.

6. I will make every attempt to reside in counties and towns where
no vital records are maintained or where the courthouse burns down
every few years.

7. I resolve to join an obscure religious cult that does not believe
in record keeping or in participating in military service.

8. When the tax collector comes to my
door, I'll loan him my pen,
which has been dipped in rapidly fading blue ink.

9. I resolve that if my beloved wife Mary should die, I will marry
another Mary.

10. I resolve not to make a will. Who needs to spend money on a
lawyer?

I thought this was hilarious. Just wanted to share!



1. No man is truly well-educated unless he learns to spell his name 
at least three different ways within the same document. I resolve to 
give the appearance of being extremely well-educated in the coming 
year.

2. I resolve to see to it that all of my children will have the same 
names that my ancestors have used for six generations in a row.

3. My age is no one's business but my own. I hereby resolve to never 
list the same age or birth year twice on any document.

4. I resolve to have each of my children baptized in a different 
church -- either in a different faith or in a different parish. 
Every third child will not be baptized at all or will be baptized by 
an itinerant minister who keeps no records.

5. I resolve to move to a new town, new county, or new state at 
least once every 10 years -- just before those pesky enumerators 
come around asking silly questions.

6. I will make every attempt to reside in counties and towns where 
no vital records are maintained or where the courthouse burns down 
every few years.

7. I resolve to join an obscure religious cult that does not believe 
in record keeping or in participating in military service.

8. When the tax collector comes to my door, I'll loan him my pen, 
which has been dipped in rapidly fading blue ink.

9. I resolve that if my beloved wife Mary should die, I will marry 
another Mary.

10. I resolve not to make a will. Who needs to spend money on a 
lawyer?

Hi Arturo,
Thank you for posting the photos of your trip to Mexico. How wonderful 
to share such a trip with so many family members. Thanks, too, for 
sharing the oral history.

Natalie in VA

Arturo, thank you for sharing your photo's and the family memories of 
the history of your family and the area they lived in.  I've only been 
to Mexico once in 2003 but the words and  photo's brought back 
beautiful and sometime sad memories.  The photo of your father at his 
ancestral home brought back the memory of me standing in front of my 
gr-grandparents, Vicente Castanon and Maria Gertrudis Caldera, adobe 
home in El Durazno, Jerez Zacatecas.  My family is also lucky to have 
a recording and transcription of my grandfathers sister talking about 
1916 and what brought about their leaving Mexico, she says her 
parents, Vicente and Maria Gertrudis, would never would have left if 
not for the revolution and the starvation it caused.  My grandmother 
Juana Sanchez (Castanon) was the only one who would go visit family in 
Mexico and once her mother died in 1953 she never went back again. My 
father visited in 1936 and then me in 2003. 

Thank you again for sharing,
Linda in Everett 

For anybody who is interested, I have posted pictures of my trip on 
my family's website.  Most are captioned, to provide some context.  
You will see a picture of my grand-uncle Poncho, whose stories I 
listed to and recorded.  Attached is a snippet on some of my family's 
oral history that I was able to gather.

http://www.ramosfamily.org/coppermine/thumbnails.php?album=18

Al tío Juan, padre de Petra lo mataron cuando iban de arrieros a 
Guadalajara con carga de huevo y otros productos agrícolas.  Luego 
traían manta, rebozos y cabeza de indio de Guadalajara.  Lo mató la 
federación en El Teul a causa de un mensaje que llevaba a Guadalajara 
por los Cristeros para la gente que daba fondos para la guerra.  La 
guerra fue propagada por conservadores en Guadalajara que daban los 
fondos económicos para pelear la guerra.  De regreso también los 
esperaban los Federales, pero les avisaron que había reten y pudieron 
cambiar de camino y escaparon.  A otros arrieros también los mataba 
la federación a causa de la guerra cristera.

Pinedos de la federación también hubo.  Cornelio fue soldado de la 
federación mientras que el tío Alfredo estuvo contra el gobierno.  
Alfredo era el sacristán de la parroquia de Villa Guerrero y le 
decían el Badajos.  Después de la Cristiada, el General Zedillo se 
contraponía contra Plutarco Elias Calles y el General Alvaro 
Obregón.  Había reclutado gente que lo apoyara en un rebelión militar 
en varias regiones del país y Badajos fue una de estas personas.  Al 
General Zedillo lo mataron en la Huasteca Potosina y un año después, 
Badajos aún seguía de prófugo.  En el cerro de la Leona se escondía 
en una cueva.  El gobierno armó una milicia de protección social y el 
tío Cornelio era integrante de la milicia.  La milicia estaba a cargo 
de los (Llanos y) Valdés, a quienes Cornelio era allegado.

Subieron a la cueva y tres días y noches esperaron que bajara sin 
éxito.  Badajos y sus compañeros arrojaban piedras hacia abajo.  Como 
Alfredo era muy ágil bajo de la cueva en una noche sin que lo 
detectaran los soldados.  Ya cansados de esperar, decidieron subir a 
buscarlo y el hermano de Marcelo Nuñez entró a la cueva con lámpara y 
no encontró nada.  Los otros que seguían afuera lo vieron salir y 
asustados, lo fusilaron pensando que era Badajos.  A unos pocos días 
Badajos mató a un Señor Ramos de Las Adjuntas así que supieron que 

Arturo, me ganaste con el comentario.

Indeed, all those presidents that you mentioned had indigenous or 
african roots. However, as I understand, the mother of Porfirio 
Diaz, Petrona Mori, was actually a Mixteca indian. A while ago, in 
Mexico, I bought four interesting magazines that talked, in detail, 
about the life of all the presidents of Mexico. I need to reread 
those pages, but I clearly remember the data that you mention. Also, 
Plutarco Elias Calles, the one ruling Mexico during the cristero 
war, had northern african ancestors.

I'll check the biographies, and will try to put some interesting 
information on mexican presidents.

Steve Apodaca

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Arturo Ramos" <arturo.ramos2@v...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, latina1955@a... wrote:
> > It is of no surprise that there has been no Mexican President 
with 
> obvious  
> > Indian/African heritage (except one)....even President Fox can 
place 
> all his  
> > ancestry coming from Europe...
> >  
> > Esperanza
> > Chicagoland area
> 
> There have actually been a number of presidents in Mexico of 
Indian and 
> African heritage...
> 
> Benito Juarez, Zapotec Indian
> Porfirio Diaz, Zapotec Indian
> Victoriano Huerta, Huichol Indian from Colotlan
> Vicente Guerrero (el negro), Mulatto
>

I want everyone to be on the look out for broken links.

I was informed by Rosalinda that there were a pile of dead links and boy
was there. she has fixed a lot of those she could.

I just want to say that this was a bigger job than I had invisioned and
want to thank her publicly for her work to help keep Ranchos running
smoothly.

Thanks Rosalinda,

joseph

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, latina1955@a... wrote:
> It is of no surprise that there has been no Mexican President with 
obvious  
> Indian/African heritage (except one)....even President Fox can place 
all his  
> ancestry coming from Europe...
>  
> Esperanza
> Chicagoland area

There have actually been a number of presidents in Mexico of Indian and 
African heritage...

Benito Juarez, Zapotec Indian
Porfirio Diaz, Zapotec Indian
Victoriano Huerta, Huichol Indian from Colotlan
Vicente Guerrero (el negro), Mulatto