TEST SITE - DO NOT USE - Development only

Joseph,

I've thought of something similar but instead of getting a group
together to simply comment about or review a history book, which is
very good, to take it one step further and together create a
searchable database with all the data of genealogical relevance.

Something similar to what we were doing with "The Colotlán Census"
from the Archivos Españoles where each team member gets assigned a
chapter or section of a book and as he/she is reading it enters the
who, when, where and what data into a previously agreed form.

When everybody gets their part done it would be a simple task to
concatenate all the parts into a single searchable database. Then we'd
select another book and do the same and so on.

The other part of the idea is to have a user interface that you can
access online where one would select a book's title from the database
and then be able to search for a person's name and get a list of all
the instances that the name appears and the associated events to it.
You would also be able to filter by dates and read all the persons
included in a selected period, some sort of timeline.

With an application like that we would not only learn about history
but we'd be accumulating data to be mined later with ease for our
genealogical purposes. I don't think any copyrights would be infringed
by extracting the "data" this way out of a book.

Of course there would have to be some criteria for the book's
selection process. We would have a list of "candidate" books and then
by consensus make a selection or maybe there could be several teams
working on their own selected book projects. "Sumaria Relación" is a
book that should be in such a list as well as many other history books
from colonial times. What do you think? I have already toyed around
with a possible database structure.

Victor


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Puentes <makas@n...> wrote:
> 
> Alicia Carrillo wrote:
> 
> > Victor and Ed,
> >  
> > The reason I chose to use this quote is because the topic was on 
> > historical novelas and or movies. My recollection was that in times 
> > past many movies and novelas were created with this thematic matter. 
> > It is not that I agree or disagree with it, my opinion is not of 
> > any relevance as it is not well informed either way. The two of you 
> > appear to have much better information and anecdotal data than I
do. I 

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alicia Carrillo <alliecar@p...> wrote:
>
> Victor,
>    
>   I have taken these quotes from pages xxvii. 
>    
>   En los ultimos años del siglo muchos de los hijos y nietos de
conquistadores estaban reducidos a la miseria. Formaban o pretendian
formar una especie de aristocracia que desdeñaba todo comercio,
granjeria o trabajo honesto y faltandoles ya las encomiendas, se
alampaban a los empleos con tal furia que no dejaban respirar a los
virreyes y aun sofocaban a la corte con diluvio de memoriales y
relaciones de meritos.
>    
>   Para todo se creian aptos por solo su abolengo. Eran en suma, una
nube de vagos con humos de grandes señores que veian de reojo a los
españoles llegados despues de la conquista porque con mejor acuerdo se
dedicaban a trabajar en el comercio o en la labor de la tierra. De su
industria sacaban comodidades que los de alcurnia de conquistadores
veian con envidia, y la desahogaban con morder despiadadamente a los
que llaman advenedizos, aprovechando el lado ridiculo de algunos
embusteros arrogantes que llegaban contando maravillas de sus riquezas
y linajes cuando a legua descubrian la burda tela de su baja y
estrecha cuna. Asi comenzaba desde temprano el odio entre españoles y
criollos. Este hecho que señala Icazbalceta se fue generalizando y
acentuando dia tras dia.
>    
>   While I agree with you that this is not the primary focus of the
book it does allude to this phenomenon early on in the history of Mexico.
>    
>   Alicia 
> 

Alicia,

I know that you have taken those quotes from the preface to the book.
 I think it was very unfortunate for the publishers to have chosen
such a person to write that introduction full of personal attacks to
the author and erecting himself as the sole authority and judge of
those who lived thru a very complex period in the history of the New
Spain.  That was far from being an objective historical analysis.

If everyone had been "arrogant and lazy vagrants" we wouldn't have
such an exceptional compilation of historical information in our
hands.  Besides if it wasn't for those creoles that he despises so
much México wouldn't have become an independent nation when it did.

Read the book, Alicia, and form you own opinion.  Then come back and
read the preface again and see if you and Mr. Ernesto de la Torre
still think alike.  

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alicia Carrillo <alliecar@p...> wrote:
>
> Victor,
>    
>   I have taken these quotes from pages xxvii. 
>    
>   En los ultimos años del siglo muchos de los hijos y nietos de
conquistadores estaban reducidos a la miseria. Formaban o pretendian
formar una especie de aristocracia que desdeñaba todo comercio,
granjeria o trabajo honesto y faltandoles ya las encomiendas, se
alampaban a los empleos con tal furia que no dejaban respirar a los
virreyes y aun sofocaban a la corte con diluvio de memoriales y
relaciones de meritos.
>    

Alicia,

I have read the same type of thing/behavior in books in English,
specifically in "Miners and Merchants in Bourbon Mexico, 1763-1810" by
D.A. Brading (Cambridge University Press). The gachupines would be
willing to work but their offspring would consider themselves
self-styled nobility. This must have gone on for centuries as
successive waves of Spanish immigrants came to Mexico; authors have
argued that it is one of the reasons why there was no economic
stability in Mexico for much time; obviously there were many other
factors. e.g. poor land, no infrastructure (rivers, etc) for transport
to markets.

The quote that I have mentioned before summarizes what you have said:
"Father a merchant, son a gentleman, grandson a beggar."

Ed

My grandmother's half-brothers and half-sisters great-grandmother was a
Sandoval. My grandmother's father was married twice--the first time to
Ma. Eleuteria Tovar/Tobar. This woman's parents were Mauricio Tovar
and Petra Escovedo/Escobedo. Petra's mother was a Sandoval--maybe
Maria Theresa Sandoval. Marge:)

On Dec 26, 2005, at 9:20 AM, glo Sandoval-Fuentes wrote:

Hi Margarita,

Yep, we came from Zacatecas. Do you have Sandovals?



               ~~glo~~







From: Margarita Vallazza <TeaCozyGran@...>
Reply-To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Odd names WAS Re: [ranchos] Re: Godina Family
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:18:52 -0600

Glo,
Did your Sandovals come from Zacatecas?  My great-grandfather's first

wife's maternal grandfather was a Sandoval from either Jerez,
Tepetongo, or

Tlaltenongo (sp?).  Just wondering.  Marge:)
On Dec 22, 2005, at 8:04 AM, glo Sandoval-Fuentes wrote:

Peggy,

 I have two daughters, one is named: Angelita Maria and the other is
Tiffany

Coreena, my Angel says her name is to ethnic and just goes by Angel
and

my
 Tiffany says her name is to caucasian...go figure huh!

Then my sons are Daniel Sam  and  Bernardo Sandoval, they neither
one

care
 about their names! smile



                ~~glo~~







 From: "Peggy Delgado" <peggydee@...>
 Reply-To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
 To: <ranchos@yahoogroups.com>
 Subject: RE: Odd names WAS Re: [ranchos] Re: Godina Family
 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:24:39 -0800

 Here is a list of names in MY family tree:

 Narciso
 Zerefina (or Zeferina)
 Leonisio
 Tranquilino
 Plutarco
 Abundio
 Blas
 Deciderio
 Germana
 Romualda
 Abato
 Tirso
 Dionicio
 Casimiro
 Sabina
 Sinecio

I think they're all awesome, strong names, although I don't
understand

Hi Margarita,

Yep, we came from Zacatecas. Do you have Sandovals?



              ~~glo~~







From: Margarita Vallazza <TeaCozyGran@...>
Reply-To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Odd names WAS Re: [ranchos] Re: Godina Family
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:18:52 -0600

Glo,

Did your Sandovals come from Zacatecas? My great-grandfather's first
wife's maternal grandfather was a Sandoval from either Jerez, Tepetongo, or
Tlaltenongo (sp?). Just wondering. Marge:)

On Dec 22, 2005, at 8:04 AM, glo Sandoval-Fuentes wrote:

Peggy,

I have two daughters, one is named: Angelita Maria and the other is
Tiffany
Coreena, my Angel says her name is to ethnic and just goes by Angel and
my

 Tiffany says her name is to caucasian...go figure huh!

Then my sons are Daniel Sam  and  Bernardo Sandoval, they neither one
care

 about their names! smile



                ~~glo~~







 From: "Peggy Delgado" <peggydee@...>
 Reply-To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
 To: <ranchos@yahoogroups.com>
 Subject: RE: Odd names WAS Re: [ranchos] Re: Godina Family
 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:24:39 -0800

 Here is a list of names in MY family tree:

 Narciso
 Zerefina (or Zeferina)
 Leonisio
 Tranquilino
 Plutarco
 Abundio
 Blas
 Deciderio
 Germana
 Romualda
 Abato
 Tirso
 Dionicio
 Casimiro
 Sabina
 Sinecio

I think they're all awesome, strong names, although I don't understand
some
of them.  To me, they're all unique and very very cool.  I wish my mom
had
named me a typical Mexican name.....I've never liked my name and got
teased
a lot.  Peggy, my name, sounds caucasian (nothing against caucasians,
but I

Alicia,

A couple of things: the book you refer to deals with a much earlier
period of Mexico's history. La Antorcha Encendida has to do with the
Independence period.

Your review of Baltazar Dorantes de Carranza's book, "Sumaria
Relación" taken from its introduction threw me a little off balance
with all those adjetives applied to the creoles like "lazy arrogant
vagrants", etc.

I have that same book and the text itself is definitely not about
that. In fact, Dorantes de Carranza was himself a descendant of one
of the conquistadors and he was among those who asked for some
concessions, so how could he judge so harshly his own peers? It is
obvious that generalizations like those in your review can lead to a
wrong impression.

For another perspective on that matter I recommend Mazzotti's article
"Resentimiento criollo y nación étnica".
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~icop/resentimientocriollo.html

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alicia Carrillo <alliecar@p...> wrote:
>
> Steve,
>    
>   I wonder if these historical novelas may relate to what I am
reading in a book titled; Sumaria Relacion de las Cosas de la Nueva
España.
>   This book in addition to documenting the names of the early
conquerors of New Spain describes life in the 16th century. It tells
how the creoles, the sons and grandsons of the early conquerors
adopted a false sense of aristocracy refusing to take on any
meaningful, gainful employment. Instead they opted to try to put
pressure on the Marquis or Viceroy who had all but ignored them to see
if they could or would be given land grants or land holdings as their
fathers or grandfathers had been granted. 
>    
>   They suffocated the Viceroy with letters and pleas for positions
of authority within the government. They submitted many letters
expounding their personal merits without proving it through their
deeds and actions. They were disdainful of gainful employment,
commerce or menial labor even though they were lacking concessions or
land grants. If the Viceroy or Marquis did issue any jobs or titles
the Creoles just overwhelmed and suffocated the government that all
but ignored them.
>    
>   They became lazy arrogant vagrants with nothing left but a false
sense of aristocracy believing that because of their proud lineage, it
afforded them a certain right and given apptitude. When the new

I buy tamales (de chile and de dulce) every year around this time and
share them with my daughters and grandkids.  If I was home
visiting my
sisters and my tias in El Paso, I would have a REAL Mexican Christmas,
too.  Feliz Navidad y Prospero Año, primos y primas!  Marge:)

I buy tamales (de chile and de dulce) every year around this time and
share them with my daughters and grandkids. If I was home visiting my
sisters and my tias in El Paso, I would have a REAL Mexican Christmas,
too. Feliz Navidad y Prospero Año, primos y primas! Marge:)

I wanted to wish the members and families of this group a Merry 
Christmas. Your sharing of memories reminds me that this is a 
special time of year when we get to remember and smile with the 
stories of holidays gone by and stories of some lost traditions.  A 
bitter sweet time to remember those no longer with us and a chance 
to pass on traditions, foods and our personal family history to our 
children and grandchildren..

I called my widowed 85 year old father in California and he told me 
he had a 'A Real Mexican Christmas' My brother had bought Tamales 
and my daughter made beans, rice and Banuelos... Of course he and I 
talked about the days he's parents bought 60 pnds of beef and 60 
pnds of pork and the whole family would spend days making Tamales 
for Christmas Eve and enough for everyone to take some home too. We 
talked of the men sitting drinking, telling stories of their 
childhood holidays, the women cooking, laughing, chasing the 
children out of the kitchen and teaching the next generation how to 
spread the masa on the corn husks.  In the evening Santa would come, 
give us a bag with an orange and popcorn and My grandmother, Dona 
Juanita would give us each a silver dollar while my grandfather, Don 
Epitacio would stand crying watching his family, eat, drink and love 
each other... what wondeful memories the holidays bring me.. I tell 
my kids to always make good memories, To share thier memories and to 
blend new traditions with the old..
So, I wish you all good memories and the chance to creat them with 
those you love.
Un abraso fuerte, Linda in Everett

The conversation about historical novelas got my attention. I 
remember that several years ago, when I still lived in Mexico, I 
watched some episodes of a historical soap opera.

It was called "La antorcha encendida". I did not watch it often 
because it came out late at night and I had to go to bed early. 
Still, the few episodes that I saw were very interesting. The story 
was about a ficticious gachupin family from Mexico in the early 
1800's. They described what the fictitious characters went through 
during the independence movement and was based on real events. Many 
historical figures came out on the story, and I was particularly 
amazed when I saw the scene showing how father Miguel Hidalgo was 
captured and killed. Other independence leaders, like Morelos, were 
also part of the story.

Anyways, I did a google search and found out that the series is 
available on dvd at amazon:


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009XRZQ0/102-1725244-9552917?
v=glance&n=130

I'm planning on buying it in the near future. I think it is worth the 
$36 it costs.

Saludos,

Steve Apodaca

Browse this:
http://www.press.uillinois.edu/epub/books/levy/toc.html

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia" <auntyemfaustus@h...>
wrote:
>
> Victor, the only one who still speaks with that accent and uses
those words that sound strange or are unknown to Mexicans is my Aunt
Emilia who is 92 years old and is the last of her generation.  I have
heard that many descendants of 16th and 17th century Spanish settlers
have discovered their Sephardic roots which explains to them many of
their ancestors particular habits, but my mother and her other
siblings would not hear of it if they were alive.  They considered
themselves "Spanish" and denied being Indian, but lately my aunt has
spoken of their Indian blood (Piro/Manso/Tewa---Pueblo tribes).  I
haven't heard that speech since my mother died in 1985 and I live far
from my aunt who has remained in the Mesilla Valley of New Mexico all
her life, so I can't think of any particular word or phrase.  I will
ask my husband, since he used to make fun of their speech (he would
imitate them to their faces!) and he would ask me where my mother got
certain words that he had never heard of.
> 
> I will look into the Ladino possibility.  Thanks.
> 
> Emilie Garcia
> Port Orchard, WA---

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "John Gonzalez" <1gnzlz@v...> wrote:
>
> Hi Ed:
> 
> I purchased a book from "Libros Latinos"  Here is their address:  Libros Latinos,  301  
9th St.  Ste. B.  Redlands, CA.  92374
> 
> Their phone number is:  909-798-1342
 
John,

Thanks. I actually live in Redlands, so I went down to their warehouse, which contains an 
enormous amount of Spanish language books: history, fiction, art, you-name-it. The 
people that work there are very intense and appear serious about what they are doing. 
They have been around for 20-25 years. Some of the reference books, property of the 
owner and not available for purchase, are to die for.

These people periodically go down to Mexico and purchase the books that are requested 
by people, assuming the requested book is not already in stock. Obviously, these Spanish 
language books are not cheap since it takes much effort and cost to find these books and 
transport them back to USA. I was impressed with their organization; everything is 
computerized---networked.


Ed

Emilie,

What you refer to as the peculiar speech of the manitos sounds very
similar to Ladino, the dialect spoken by the Sephardim.  Have you
compared some of the words/expressions that you remember in both?

Victor
ho.ho.ho


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia" <auntyemfaustus@h...>
wrote:
>
> The 'manitos had been in New Mexico since Onate's time there, 1598,
but it could be that Cuba and Puerto Rico were settled by the same
group of Spaniards that settled New Mexico in the 16th Century.  I
agree that some of the speech is similar between the two groups.
> 
> Emilie Garcia
> Port Orchard, WA ---

http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com/XmasEveMessage12_24_2005.mp3

ho ho ho,

joseph