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Alberto,

There is a definitive Sephardic element among the early settlers of
Mexico in colonial times, but not as widespread as some would like you
to believe.  

Some Hispanic persons are carefully researching evidences or hints of
a possible Sephardic ancestry but many more are too eagerly and
hastily donning an ethnic label without sufficient
genealogical/historical or genetic proof to back their claims.

It is something similar to the ever popular reason for pursuing
genealogical research in many people: finding one's royal lineage
ancestors.  The allure of belonging to a special group is a potent
motivator and what's more special than being "chosen by God"?  The
question is are we in a search after factual truths or a fanciful and
embellished version of a glorious past?

Saludos Cordiales,
Victor


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alberto Duarte <albertodua@y...> wrote:
>
> Regarding our Jewish cousins....
> Joseph, you mean Sephardic Jews.  I've seen a number
> of Sephardic genealogy websites, most of them
> sponsored by people like us that have found their
> Jewish roots.  I found a number of early Spanish and
> Portuguese Sephardic Jews in early Mexico that had the
> last name Duarte, but I've yet to make a connection
> with anyone of them.  But I would not be surprised to
> find out that some of my ancestors were Sephardic
> Jews. 
> 
> Also, I've known Spanish Jews here in the United
> States and I have found them to be a very intelligent,
> friendly and handsome group of people.
> 
> Alberto Duarte Prieto
> Santa Maria, California 
> 

I found in the records from Tamazula Jalisco back in the late 1600's 
the scribe spelled Juan as Joan on many records.. that's a Portuguese 
spelling. In Jerez I noticed my Tovar ancestor is spelled Thobar, 
Thovar, Tobar and Tovar... all the same family. I would think that's a 
Spanish pronunciation and spelling. Since our ancestors never saw the 
records and sometimes were not even the person giving the information 
it's amazing that so many are traceable and correct! In Jerez I find 
the surname Correa, in Tamazula it's Coria, I'm wondering if it's the 
same family name? Is Davila the same as De Avila? The ancestors must 
get a chuckle from our searches and questions.
Linda in Everett

Joseph,

Alberto is correct about the Portuguese version of some surnames
ending in "s" versus the Castillian version ending in "z".

Of course finding a Gonzales among your ancestors does not necessarily
mean that you had a Portuguese origin relative but rather that the
priest doing the recording was using a particular grammar convention.

The idea of "z" ending surnames as being of Jewish origin is being
propagated by a group called "Los Mesiánicos", but is totally
baseless.  It is a theory that you should write down on your list of
lunatic fringe theories.

By the way, could you explain what you mean about you belonging to the
priestly tribe of Levi?  I remember you mentioned being R1b...

Feliz Navidad!!!

Victor Hugo Villarreal Villagrana
Reynosa, México.


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Puentes <makas@n...> wrote:
>
> 
> This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask but kind of 
> forget every time I get to the key board. I guess its time (been time) 
> for me to start writing myself notes so i'll remember later [here's a 
> confession---I've been writing myself notes but half the time I forget 
> to look at the notes].
> 
> anyway what is the take on  Gonzalez and Gonsalez and Gonzales and 
> Gonsales?
> 
> Since I've started studying genealogy I've always been told not to get 
> hung up on spelling, but that seemed to be coming from the Anglo point 
> of view. I tend to believe that we as well shouldn't get hung up on 
> spelling from the Mexican point of view. Do you all agree?
> 
> Reason I'm asking is that I seem to have read something when I first 
> started genealogy that either the the ending with the Z or the ending 
> with the S meant something like Jewish roots for folks of Hispanic 
> hertiage: Peres v. Perez
> 
> I don't know and don't really know how they can prove something like 
> that with a bunch of folks that "SEEM" to be spelling the same persons 
> name in all different possible ways. . .what does that mean that to one 
> scribe he was Jewish and to the next one he wasn't. Or is it as it
seems 
> to be that certain ones weren't very literate and spelled the names 
> phonetically?
> 
> And since the Jewish subject came up does anyone know of good resources 
> for Askenazi (sp) Jews in Mexico. I seem to be of the tribe of Levi (a 
> priest) if my DNA indications are to be believed?
> 
> joseph
> 

Regarding our Jewish cousins....
Joseph, you mean Sephardic Jews.  I've seen a number
of Sephardic genealogy websites, most of them
sponsored by people like us that have found their
Jewish roots.  I found a number of early Spanish and
Portuguese Sephardic Jews in early Mexico that had the
last name Duarte, but I've yet to make a connection
with anyone of them.  But I would not be surprised to
find out that some of my ancestors were Sephardic
Jews. 

Also, I've known Spanish Jews here in the United
States and I have found them to be a very intelligent,
friendly and handsome group of people.

Alberto Duarte Prieto
Santa Maria, California 


--- Joseph Puentes <makas@...> wrote:

> 
> This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to
> ask but kind of 
> forget every time I get to the key board. I guess
> its time (been time) 
> for me to start writing myself notes so i'll
> remember later [here's a 
> confession---I've been writing myself notes but half
> the time I forget 
> to look at the notes].
> 
> anyway what is the take on  Gonzalez and Gonsalez
> and Gonzales and 
> Gonsales?
> 
> Since I've started studying genealogy I've always
> been told not to get 
> hung up on spelling, but that seemed to be coming
> from the Anglo point 
> of view. I tend to believe that we as well shouldn't
> get hung up on 
> spelling from the Mexican point of view. Do you all
> agree?
> 
> Reason I'm asking is that I seem to have read
> something when I first 
> started genealogy that either the the ending with
> the Z or the ending 
> with the S meant something like Jewish roots for
> folks of Hispanic 
> hertiage: Peres v. Perez
> 
> I don't know and don't really know how they can
> prove something like 
> that with a bunch of folks that "SEEM" to be
> spelling the same persons 
> name in all different possible ways. . .what does
> that mean that to one 
> scribe he was Jewish and to the next one he wasn't.
> Or is it as it seems 
> to be that certain ones weren't very literate and
> spelled the names 
> phonetically?
> 
> And since the Jewish subject came up does anyone
> know of good resources 
> for Askenazi (sp) Jews in Mexico. I seem to be of
> the tribe of Levi (a 
> priest) if my DNA indications are to be believed?
> 
> joseph
> 
> ps:  I hope you all have a Feliz Navidad. I wish we

Interesting question...  
I use to believe the difference in spelling the names
like Gonzalez/Gonzales, Lopez/Lopes,
Martinez/Martines/ etc., was that the letter "z" was
used by the Spanish and the letter "s" was used by the
Portuguese. 

But later I found out this was not true because many
of the old Spanish/Mexican church records I found used
both the letter "z" or the letter "s", depending on
the priest doing the writing.  I believe many of our
ancestors didn't know how to read-or-write so it was
up to the priest to spell and write their names.  For
instance, my great---grandmother's last name was
spelled "Tovar" and sometimes was spelled "Tobar". 
Which one is correct? To me they're both correct.

Alberto Duarte Prieto
Santa Maria, California

--- Joseph Puentes <makas@...> wrote:

> 
> This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to
> ask but kind of 
> forget every time I get to the key board. I guess
> its time (been time) 
> for me to start writing myself notes so i'll
> remember later [here's a 
> confession---I've been writing myself notes but half
> the time I forget 
> to look at the notes].
> 
> anyway what is the take on  Gonzalez and Gonsalez
> and Gonzales and 
> Gonsales?
> 
> Since I've started studying genealogy I've always
> been told not to get 
> hung up on spelling, but that seemed to be coming
> from the Anglo point 
> of view. I tend to believe that we as well shouldn't
> get hung up on 
> spelling from the Mexican point of view. Do you all
> agree?
> 
> Reason I'm asking is that I seem to have read
> something when I first 
> started genealogy that either the the ending with
> the Z or the ending 
> with the S meant something like Jewish roots for
> folks of Hispanic 
> hertiage: Peres v. Perez
> 
> I don't know and don't really know how they can
> prove something like 
> that with a bunch of folks that "SEEM" to be
> spelling the same persons 
> name in all different possible ways. . .what does
> that mean that to one 
> scribe he was Jewish and to the next one he wasn't.
> Or is it as it seems 
> to be that certain ones weren't very literate and
> spelled the names 
> phonetically?
> 
> And since the Jewish subject came up does anyone
> know of good resources 
> for Askenazi (sp) Jews in Mexico. I seem to be of
> the tribe of Levi (a 

Saludos to everyone:

I haven't written messages for a while, but, anyways, here's my 
contribution to this discussion.

My paternal grandfather's name is a very special case in my family. 
He was baptized Jose Adolfo Apodaca Ramirez (Adolfo Apodaca, a 
secas). Twenty-some years later, when he got married, he was 
described as Ranulfo Apodaca (and he signed his name like that, 
too). For the rest of his life, he was known to everyone as Arnulfo 
Apodaca. This is the name that appears on his death certificate. His 
real name (Adolfo) was never used by the family, and was eventually 
replaced by "Arnulfo". In fact, an uncle, one of my brothers, and 
some distant cousin I don't even know, all were given my grandpa's 
fake name.

Don't you think that Adolfo sounded much better than Arnulfo? Still, 
it seems that my grandfather preferred the "ugly" name.

My family tree is packed with names that are a little bit odd by 
today's standards. An example is my maternal grandmother. Her name 
is Manuela. Her mom's name was Ambrosia Frias. Ambrosia's sisters 
were Panfila and Rafaela. Ambrosia's mother was Pascuala Aguilar.

Others names that appear in my family tree are Cayetana, Urbano, 
Gertrudis Aniceta, Pantaleona, Austreberta, Macaria, etc.

I am sure that during their times, those names were not considered 
odd, and probably, in 100 years, my greatgrandchildren will think 
that my name and those of my brothers and sisters were weird. 

Saludos,

Steve Apodaca in Winston Salem, NC

PS. By the way, I would like to share this story: my mom was a huge 
baseball fan. She loved the Dogders from the 1970's and 1980's and 
one of her favorite players was Steve Garvey. That's why I have this 
ugly name. :-(

Hey, there is nothing wrong with our old Spanish
names.  My great-----grandaunt's name was Maria
Guadalupe Leogarda De La Cruz Pena Morales, 1797,
Valle De Allende, Chihuahua,Mexico. 

They were long but beautiful.

Alberto Duarte Prieto
Santa Maria, California

--- Alicia Carrillo <alliecar@...> wrote:

> Marge and Emilie,
>    
>   Alicia must be a very new name because in all my
> research I have not once found this name either in
> my ancestors or any other records. I guess we are
> modern women hence the new variant of a name. I
> guess that's also why I am not saintly, no
> precedents in my namesake.
>    
>   Alicia, a saint in waiting or in the
> making............hope is everlasting, (sigh, sigh).
> 
> Margarita Vallazza <TeaCozyGran@...> wrote:
>   That's what I thought, too, Em! BTW, my middle
> name is Alicia...my 
> folks said it was after a family friend but I don't
> remember ever 
> meeting her. My first name is after my Scots
> mother's sister but in 
> Spanish. I've since discovered that my aunt was
> named after her 
> grandmother, who was named after her own
> grandmother. Had I known that 
> I would have named one of my own daughters a variant
> of it. Marge, who 
> is Shinju in Japanese.:)
> 
> On Dec 21, 2005, at 5:19 AM, Emilie Garcia wrote:
> 
> > Well, Alicia, I have a sister, my only sibling,
> who is named Alicia 
> > Emma.  I will have to tell her she should have a
> saint's name since 
> > she has a pagan name.  Our parents had saint's
> names:Â  Luisa and 
> > Guadalupe.  I wonder where they got the name
> Alicia.  There is no one 
> > in the family with that name.  I know that I was
> named after my 
> > mother's mother, Emilia.  My middle name is
> Christina---can't get any 
> > saintlier than that.  I was born almost on
> Easter, maybe that is why 
> > the name Christina. 
> > Â 
> > Marge, most of the names you mention sound like
> they came from the 
> > classic Greek or Roman---pagan?
> > Â 
> > Emilie Garcia
> > Port Orchard, WA ---
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Alicia Carrillo
> >> To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 8:15 PM
> >> Subject: [ranchos] Re: Odd names WAS
> >>
> >> Marge,

My mother in law, who was from Ecuador, had a middle name that was
Torribia (how terrible for her:))That was her mother's middle name.
She had a sister named Zoraida and another sister named Rosenda (not
too bad but still). Marge:)

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Dear Emilie,

Maybe this question was already answered but I was looking at a map in
some book and found that there's a Saltrillo Jalisco just barely south
of the State of Zacatecas. Could your ancestor have been from there?
Marge:)

That's what I thought, too, Em! BTW, my middle name is Alicia...my folks said it was after a family friend but I don't remember ever meeting her. My first name is after my Scots mother's sister but in Spanish. I've since discovered that my aunt was named after her grandmother, who was named after her own grandmother. Had I known that I would have named one of my own daughters a variant of it. Marge, who is Shinju in Japanese.:)



On Dec 21, 2005, at 5:19 AM, Emilie Garcia wrote:

<x-tad-smaller>Well, Alicia, I have a sister, my only sibling, who is named Alicia Emma.  I will have to tell her she should have a saint's name since she has a pagan name.  Our parents had saint's names:  Luisa and Guadalupe.  I wonder where they got the name Alicia.  There is no one in the family with that name.  I know that I was named after my mother's mother, Emilia.  My middle name is Christina---can't get any saintlier than that.  I was born almost on Easter, maybe that is why the name Christina. </x-tad-smaller>

<x-tad-smaller> </x-tad-smaller>

<x-tad-smaller>Marge, most of the names you mention sound like they came from the classic Greek or Roman---pagan?</x-tad-smaller>

<x-tad-smaller> </x-tad-smaller>

<x-tad-smaller>Emilie Garcia</x-tad-smaller>

<x-tad-smaller>Port Orchard, WA ---</x-tad-smaller>

Or even my dads name is Augapito.



              ~~glo~~







From: Margarita Vallazza <TeaCozyGran@...>
Reply-To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Odd names WAS Re: [ranchos] Re: Godina Family
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:57:34 -0600

Aren't you glad to not be named Reducindo or Reducinda?  One of my
ancestors is named Narciso, another Prudencio, another Petronilo, and
another Zenobio...what names!!!!  Marge:)





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Aren't you glad to not be named Reducindo or Reducinda?  One of my
ancestors is named Narciso, another Prudencio, another Petronilo, and
another Zenobio...what names!!!!  Marge:)

---

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---

I'm baaack 
We finally got our internet connection back - have been w/o internet 
since Oct 29, and had been checking email @library a few days each 
week, but really had very little time to read many of the digests as I 
could only use library computer for about 30 min (not near enough time 
to read the Ranchos messages). I have spent the past 1-1/2 hrs reading 
past messages and have read up to Digest #678/Nov 29. It has been 
wonderful and interesting; can't wait to read more - but will have to 
wait until tomorrow (it is past my bedtime ;) ). Thank you all for your 
contributions of knowledge & experiences. Y'all take care.
Merry Christmas blessings to you all.
Natalie Coleman in VA

They sound like Cubanos or Puertoriquenos to me.:) Marge

On Dec 20, 2005, at 1:32 PM, Emilie Garcia wrote:

<x-tad-smaller> These people were known as "manitos" (the priests had told them they were Hermanitos), and their nasally speech was unique, an ancient 16th century Spanish, where they dropped the first and last parts of words as in 'equia for acequia, and 'manito for hermanito, and colorao for colorado, and they had beliefs and practices unique to them.  Due to more mobility nowadays, that is all gone.</x-tad-smaller>

<x-tad-smaller> </x-tad-smaller>

Aren't you glad to not be named Reducindo or Reducinda? One of my
ancestors is named Narciso, another Prudencio, another Petronilo, and
another Zenobio...what names!!!! Marge:)

Correction.. my father is not 185 years old... he visited Jerez in 
1936.... he's only 85....
Linda

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Erlinda Castanon-Long" 
<longsjourney@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi Alberto,
> In my family in Jerez Zacatecas the Mulato's were assimillated and 
> through the years by marrying into Espanol and Mestizo families 
they 
> eventually thought they were Espanol and Mestizo only.
> 
> My Alcala family records show them as Alcalan and Mulato Libre or 
> Indio depending on which brothers marriage record you read in late 
> 1700's. They come to Jerez by way of Valparaiso and Fresnillo to 
> live in Labor de Marquez by 1780. By 1815 my direct ancestor 
Marcial 
> Alcala had married an Espanol woman and therafter they thought of 
> themselves as Espanol! 
> Abt. 1865 my ancestor Maria Marcos Alcala married Ambrocio Caldera 
> and the Caldera family always said they were Espanol. If I 
remember 
> correctly you and I share the Caldera line.  I have found 1 record 
> that suggests that the Garcia line married into the Caldera lines 
> twice in late 1700's were also Indio and possibly Mulato, the 
record 
> refers to him as Collote... I have the Garcia line in at least 2 
of 
> my lines.
> 
> When my father visited El Durazno, Jerez in 1836 he was asked if 
> there really were people with black skins in California? They said 
> they had never seen such a person and knew nothing of the history 
of 
> slavery in their own community. It's nice to reclaim through 
> genealogy the people who got me here..
> Linda in Everett.
>