TEST SITE - DO NOT USE - Development only

Thanks for sharing.  I've also heard some places in
Mexico they also have contests on the best alter in
the cemetery.  I don't think I would be afraid going
into the graveyard at night with a busload of people
either, if I ran into a spirit I probably would have
to say, hey I've hit a brick wall in my genealogy do
you know any info on the matter..haha.  Good topic for
Halloween of course.

--- "Josie T. Trevino" <Josiett3@...> wrote:

> Hi Carol!    My first experience with Dia de Los
> Muertos was in Oaxaca and I
> was, as you were told by the presenter at the art
> gallery, one of those
> people in a bus load of people taken to cemeteries
> late at night!!  :-)   It
> was not a scary experience for me mainly because
> there were a lot of people
> around and I am not afraid to go to cemeteries;
> however at that time, I had
> never been to a cemetery late at night!  A few years
> later I did spend a
> couple of nights in a cemetery (IN OUR RV) but that
> is another story!
> Mickey Garcia and I spent Dia de Los Muertos in
> Mexico last year and we
> learned that it various places celebrate in
> different ways......some make it
> a big celebration while others keep it small.  We
> did see some beautiful
> altares and read some great Calaveras in Saltillo. 
> In Guadalajara we missed
> the event by one day and they were dismanteling
> platforms from a previous
> celebration.  Of course, that is probably all
> changing as Dia de Los Muertos
> events become more popular.  Here in San Antonio
> they do celebrate it and it
> has also made a comeback in the last five or ten
> years or so.  When my
> youngest daughter was a student at the Kansas City
> Art Institute she made a
> small alter honoring her grandparents in her
> apartment when I visited her.
> This was back in 1990. I wish I could be there to
> see how they celebrate it
> today!    Josie Trevino Trevino in San Antonio, TX 
>   _____  
> 
> From: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Carol Turner
> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:48 AM
> To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [ranchos] Dia de los Muertos
> 
> 
> DIA DE MUERTOS has made a comeback in the last five
> years here in Kansas City.  I don't ever remember my

Since I have gotten so many requests for this, and because I think 
most people's email programs will bounce the email if I send it to 
them since the PDF is 4MB, I have posted it in Ranchos2 in the files 
section.

As the file is so large, I imagine that Joseph will eventually have 
to take it down to make space for other items, so please go and 
download/print it when you get a chance.

I found this item at the Library of Congress.  It was written by 
Francisco Manuel de Salcedo Herrera in 1650 and transcribed by a 
priest named Eucario Lopez... who according to the prologue 
transcribed other historic documents from the Archives of the 
Archdiocese of Guadalajara.


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Carol Turner <cdian@s...> wrote:
>
> Please send me a copy of the Tlaltenango.
> 
> Thanks!!!!!!
> 
> --- Arturo Ramos <arturo.ramos2@v...> wrote:
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription
> of a 1650 
> Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and
> email to whomever 
> would like it.  There is not much in terms of names...
> only the 
> owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the
> number of 
> people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there
> is some 
> interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and
> economic 
> information in it.  The names that are mentioned
> include:
> 
> Antonio de Castro
> Lorenzo de Miramontes
> Tomasina de Haro
> Hernando Lamas
> Martin Gonzalez
> Juan de Miramontes
> Domingo de Lamas
> Martin Tello de Orozaco
> Martin Lopez
> (los) Melendes
> Francisco de Luna
> Pedro de Solis
> Antonio de Rivera
> Luis Felix Delgado
> Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
> Pedro Garcia de Morones
> Pedro Lopez
> Tomas Gonzalez
> Bernave Sanchez
> Antonio Miramontes
> Francisco Bohorques
> Diego Gregorio
> Isabel Ruiz
> Cristobal Cabral
> Critobal Garcia Roldan
> Felipe Diaz de Santiago
> Nicolas de Haro
> Tomas Vela
> Martin Gonzalez
> Lorenzo de Miramontes
> (los) Munoces (Munoz)
> Juan Figueroa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
>       SPONSORED LINKS  
>                                                
> Aguascalientes                                   
> Criminal offenses                                   

Hi, Carol! This is interesting. My grandparents never celebrated this either in El Paso and I never heard them or any of my relatives speak of it. But I do remember hearing the phrase occasionally as I was growing up. I do remember when I was a little girl, there being a biiiiiig celebration at Sacred Heart Church with Matachines. I remember being impressed with their wooden soled sandals and the noise they made. Marge



On Oct 31, 2005, at 7:47 AM, Carol Turner wrote:

DIA DE MUERTOS has made a comeback in the last five
years here in Kansas City.  I don't ever remember my
grandparents mentioning this to any of us or how they
celebrated in Mexico.  Mattie Rhodes Art gallery puts
on quite an exhibit with local artists and small
alters in dedication to our ancestors.  They also have
a big party in the street with dancing skeletons and
music, food.  I've heard Chicago puts on a big parade
now.  A few years ago I went to a slide presentation
here at the art gallery.  The presenter told me in the
state of Oaxaca they would load up buses of people and
ride out to the cemetery late at night with candles,
flowers, food, some people brought guitars to play
music.  I asked her if she felt anything while in the
cemetery, I was just curious, she said well she wasn't
scared or anything but sensed a presence there but a
good presence.  I'm curious but is DIA DE MUERTOS
celebrated in every state of Mexico differently? We
also celebrate All Saints day which is tomorrow but
it's usually a Mass celebration and prayers for our
deceased ancestors.  

Just thought I would share what is going on here in KC
and how they celebrate this holiday.  

Carol

--- Joseph Puentes <makas@...> wrote:

> 
> Hi Joseph,
> 
>      Here are a few photos from El Paso, taken Sat
> 29, in celebration of 
> DIA DE MUERTOS.   I hope you can post these for the
> group to see the 
> different ALTARES and festivities. 
>      Not only did they present these wonderful
> altares but they also had 
> great food from the region of Vera Cruz and music
> from northern and 
> southern Vera Cruz. We listened to a trio Xoxocapa
> which played sones 
> Huastecos and Huapangos and Los Utrera which played
> sones Jarochos 
> campesinos. These two groups were brought in from
> Vera Cruz to perform 
> and delight the croud and boy did they ever!!!
>      I hope you consider setting up an altar for
> your difuntos and if 
> you do please share with the group.    HASTA PRONTO
> 
> Yolanda Medina Perez (windrocklili@...)
> 
> =============================
> 
> for the Juarez group you can find photos in the
> Photos section
> 
> for the Ranchos group you can find a folder in the
> links area.
> 
> joseph
> 

A tradition in Mexico is the writing of a CALAVERA for 
friends,family, public personalities and politicians.  Calaveras are 
meant to be funny, they are not meant as eulogies, but are mild 
teasing.  There's usually some sort of rhyme, and they can be 
several lines to several stanzas in length.  They can also be poems 
of sharp criticism especially towards Los Politicos or Governantes 
from Mexico and U.S.

Here goes one for you Joseph, ojala y te guste.

             JOSEPH

  ESTABA JOSEPH MUY DE MANANA 
  COMIENDO PAN Y TOMANDO SU ATOLE.
  PLATICABA CON SU AMADA, 
  CON SU "AMORCITO CORAZON"
  SUSPIRABA Y SE QUEJABA 
  DE SUS PARIENTES, YA EN EL PANTEON.
  DONDE ESTARAN?  DONDE SE ENCUENTRAN? 
  A DONDE SE FUERON? QUIEN ME DA CUENTAS?
  Y DE REPENTE, SE ESCUCHA UNA VOZ...
  AQUI ESTOY MI PRIMO, PORQUE ME BUSCABAS?
  PARA QUE SOY BUENO, Y PORQUE ME LLAMABAS.
  AHORA...
  VENGO POR TI, VENGO POR VOS
  VAMONOS JUNTITOS, SOLITOS LOS DOS 
  VAMOS A JALISCO, AGUASCALIENTES Y ZACATECAS
  A BUSCAR A TU GENTE QUE ALLA NOS ESPERAN. 
  
   
  MARIA YOLANDA PEREZ
     

Please send me a copy of the Tlaltenango.

Thanks!!!!!!

--- Arturo Ramos <arturo.ramos2@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription
of a 1650 
Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and
email to whomever 
would like it.  There is not much in terms of names...
only the 
owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the
number of 
people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there
is some 
interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and
economic 
information in it.  The names that are mentioned
include:

Antonio de Castro
Lorenzo de Miramontes
Tomasina de Haro
Hernando Lamas
Martin Gonzalez
Juan de Miramontes
Domingo de Lamas
Martin Tello de Orozaco
Martin Lopez
(los) Melendes
Francisco de Luna
Pedro de Solis
Antonio de Rivera
Luis Felix Delgado
Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
Pedro Garcia de Morones
Pedro Lopez
Tomas Gonzalez
Bernave Sanchez
Antonio Miramontes
Francisco Bohorques
Diego Gregorio
Isabel Ruiz
Cristobal Cabral
Critobal Garcia Roldan
Felipe Diaz de Santiago
Nicolas de Haro
Tomas Vela
Martin Gonzalez
Lorenzo de Miramontes
(los) Munoces (Munoz)
Juan Figueroa





      

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If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription of a 1650
Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and email to whomever
would like it.  There is not much in terms of names... only the
owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the number of
people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there is some
interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and economic
information in it.  The names that are mentioned include:

Antonio de Castro
Lorenzo de Miramontes
Tomasina de Haro
Hernando Lamas
Martin Gonzalez
Juan de Miramontes
Domingo de Lamas
Martin Tello de Orozaco
Martin Lopez
(los) Melendes
Francisco de Luna
Pedro de Solis
Antonio de Rivera
Luis Felix Delgado
Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
Pedro Garcia de Morones
Pedro Lopez
Tomas Gonzalez
Bernave Sanchez
Antonio
Miramontes
Francisco Bohorques
Diego Gregorio
Isabel Ruiz
Cristobal Cabral
Critobal Garcia Roldan
Felipe Diaz de Santiago
Nicolas de Haro
Tomas Vela
Martin Gonzalez
Lorenzo de Miramontes
(los) Munoces (Munoz)
Juan Figueroa

If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription of a 1650
Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and email to whomever
would like it.  There is not much in terms of names... only the
owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the number of
people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there is some
interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and economic
information in it.  The names that are mentioned include:

Antonio de Castro
Lorenzo de Miramontes
Tomasina de Haro
Hernando Lamas
Martin Gonzalez
Juan de Miramontes
Domingo de Lamas
Martin Tello de Orozaco
Martin Lopez
(los) Melendes
Francisco de Luna
Pedro de Solis
Antonio de Rivera
Luis Felix Delgado
Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
Pedro Garcia de Morones
Pedro Lopez
Tomas Gonzalez
Bernave Sanchez
Antonio
Miramontes
Francisco Bohorques
Diego Gregorio
Isabel Ruiz
Cristobal Cabral
Critobal Garcia Roldan
Felipe Diaz de Santiago
Nicolas de Haro
Tomas Vela
Martin Gonzalez
Lorenzo de Miramontes
(los) Munoces (Munoz)
Juan Figueroa

Arturo,

I would like a copy too.  Thank you.

Maria
--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy Delgado" <peggydee@c...> wrote:
>
> I'd like a copy ....
> email to :
> peggydee@c...
> 
> Thanks a bunch!
> Peggy
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: ranchos@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com]On 
Behalf Of
> Arturo Ramos
>   Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 10:43 AM
>   To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: [ranchos] Tlaltenango Census
> 
> 
>   If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription of a 1650
>   Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and email to 
whomever
>   would like it.  There is not much in terms of names... only the
>   owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the number of
>   people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there is some
>   interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and economic
>   information in it.  The names that are mentioned include:
> 
>   Antonio de Castro
>   Lorenzo de Miramontes
>   Tomasina de Haro
>   Hernando Lamas
>   Martin Gonzalez
>   Juan de Miramontes
>   Domingo de Lamas
>   Martin Tello de Orozaco
>   Martin Lopez
>   (los) Melendes
>   Francisco de Luna
>   Pedro de Solis
>   Antonio de Rivera
>   Luis Felix Delgado
>   Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
>   Pedro Garcia de Morones
>   Pedro Lopez
>   Tomas Gonzalez
>   Bernave Sanchez
>   Antonio Miramontes
>   Francisco Bohorques
>   Diego Gregorio
>   Isabel Ruiz
>   Cristobal Cabral
>   Critobal Garcia Roldan
>   Felipe Diaz de Santiago
>   Nicolas de Haro
>   Tomas Vela
>   Martin Gonzalez
>   Lorenzo de Miramontes
>   (los) Munoces (Munoz)
>   Juan Figueroa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   SPONSORED LINKS Aguascalientes  Criminal offenses  Zacatecas
>         Zacatecas mexico  Zacatecas hotel  Fiesta americana 
aguascalientes
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> --
>   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> 
>     a..  Visit your group "ranchos" on the web.
> 
>     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>      ranchos-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> 
> 

 Arturo,

Please send me a copy of the Tlaltenango Census.

Thank You 
Sally

Hi Arturo!

Please, please, please send me a copy. Most of the
names on this list are my wife's.
 
> Lorenzo de Miramontes
> Tomasina de Haro
> Hernando Lamas

> Juan de Miramontes
> Domingo de Lamas
> Martin Tello de Orozaco
 
> Francisco de Luna
> Antonio Miramontes
> Nicolas de Haro
> Tomas Vela
> Lorenzo de Miramontes

and I like to view..
> (los) Munoces (Munoz)

Jose Munoz



--- Arturo Ramos <arturo.ramos2@...> wrote:

> If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription
> of a 1650 
> Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and
> email to whomever 
> would like it.  There is not much in terms of
> names... only the 
> owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with
> the number of 
> people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but
> there is some 
> interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic
> and economic 
> information in it.  The names that are mentioned
> include:
> 
> Antonio de Castro
> Lorenzo de Miramontes
> Tomasina de Haro
> Hernando Lamas
> Martin Gonzalez
> Juan de Miramontes
> Domingo de Lamas
> Martin Tello de Orozaco
> Martin Lopez
> (los) Melendes
> Francisco de Luna
> Pedro de Solis
> Antonio de Rivera
> Luis Felix Delgado
> Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
> Pedro Garcia de Morones
> Pedro Lopez
> Tomas Gonzalez
> Bernave Sanchez
> Antonio Miramontes
> Francisco Bohorques
> Diego Gregorio
> Isabel Ruiz
> Cristobal Cabral
> Critobal Garcia Roldan
> Felipe Diaz de Santiago
> Nicolas de Haro
> Tomas Vela
> Martin Gonzalez
> Lorenzo de Miramontes
> (los) Munoces (Munoz)
> Juan Figueroa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



	
		
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Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
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thanks Arturo. . .great idea and where did you find that information? Is
it on a FHL film? or a book? give us the references so we can find it
also. I might be related to Lorenzo de Miramontes. . .not sure though.

joseph

Arturo Ramos wrote:

If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription of a 1650
Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and email to whomever
would like it. There is not much in terms of names... only the
owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the number of
people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there is some
interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and economic
information in it. The names that are mentioned include:

Antonio de Castro
Lorenzo de Miramontes
Tomasina de Haro
Hernando Lamas
Martin Gonzalez
Juan de Miramontes
Domingo de Lamas
Martin Tello de Orozaco
Martin Lopez
(los) Melendes
Francisco de Luna
Pedro de Solis
Antonio de Rivera
Luis Felix Delgado
Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
Pedro Garcia de Morones
Pedro Lopez
Tomas Gonzalez
Bernave Sanchez
Antonio Miramontes
Francisco Bohorques
Diego Gregorio
Isabel Ruiz
Cristobal Cabral
Critobal Garcia Roldan
Felipe Diaz de Santiago
Nicolas de Haro
Tomas Vela
Martin Gonzalez
Lorenzo de Miramontes
(los) Munoces (Munoz)
Juan Figueroa









Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Arturo,
I, too, would like a copy of the .pdf.
George
luna@...


Arturo Ramos wrote:

If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription of a 1650
Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and email to whomever
would like it. There is not much in terms of names... only the
owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the number of
people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there is some
interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and economic
information in it. The names that are mentioned include:

Antonio de Castro
Lorenzo de Miramontes
Tomasina de Haro
Hernando Lamas
Martin Gonzalez
Juan de Miramontes
Domingo de Lamas
Martin Tello de Orozaco
Martin Lopez
(los) Melendes
Francisco de Luna
Pedro de Solis
Antonio de Rivera
Luis Felix Delgado
Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
Pedro Garcia de Morones
Pedro Lopez
Tomas Gonzalez
Bernave Sanchez
Antonio Miramontes
Francisco Bohorques
Diego Gregorio
Isabel Ruiz
Cristobal Cabral
Critobal Garcia Roldan
Felipe Diaz de Santiago
Nicolas de Haro
Tomas Vela
Martin Gonzalez
Lorenzo de Miramontes
(los) Munoces (Munoz)
Juan Figueroa









Yahoo! Groups Links

I have updated my genealogy files in Ranchos2.  These now include a 
list of surnames and four pedigree charts, one for each of my 
grandparents.

These can be accessed at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ranchos2/files/AAAAA-Genealogies/Arturo%
20Ramos%20%28arturo.ramos2%40verizon.net%29/

If anybody is interested, I copied the transcription of a 1650 
Tlaltenango census this weekend that I can PDF and email to whomever 
would like it.  There is not much in terms of names... only the 
owners of the "estancias" are mentioned along with the number of 
people that inhabit each of the "estancias" but there is some 
interesting geographic, demographic, ethnographic and economic 
information in it.  The names that are mentioned include:

Antonio de Castro
Lorenzo de Miramontes
Tomasina de Haro
Hernando Lamas
Martin Gonzalez
Juan de Miramontes
Domingo de Lamas
Martin Tello de Orozaco
Martin Lopez
(los) Melendes
Francisco de Luna
Pedro de Solis
Antonio de Rivera
Luis Felix Delgado
Mencia (la vuida mulata libre)
Pedro Garcia de Morones
Pedro Lopez
Tomas Gonzalez
Bernave Sanchez
Antonio Miramontes
Francisco Bohorques
Diego Gregorio
Isabel Ruiz
Cristobal Cabral
Critobal Garcia Roldan
Felipe Diaz de Santiago
Nicolas de Haro
Tomas Vela
Martin Gonzalez
Lorenzo de Miramontes
(los) Munoces (Munoz)
Juan Figueroa

Arturo, 

  the below "acta de bautismo" of my 4th great JOSE
GABINO RODRIGUES TRISTAN is a example of how mind
boggling an error,like yourself, in documentation may
be misleadingly,,,


Film #0708064 Bautismo record March 07, 1795 San
Geronimo, Moctezuma, San Luis Potosi, Mexico. En la
Yglesia del Pueblo de la Hedeonda, en siete de Marzo
de mil setecientos noventa y sinco, el Br. Dn YGNACIO
MARTINES, como Theniente de Cura, baptiso y puso Los
Santos Oleos a JOSE GABINO RODRIGUES TRISTAN, mestizo,
de Xaquesillos, de 16 diez y seis dias de nacido; hijo
legitimo de JOSE MARIA OLALLO RODRIGUES y MARIA
MATIANA TRISTAN.  fsp: JOSE LUCIANO ROMAN .


HOWEVER!! On Gabino's marriage record the paternal
grandparents are documented as his parents.

Film #0707776 last item p.220. Marriage October 30,
1816, en la Yglesia Parroquial del Real de Nuestra
Senora de Charcas, San Luis Potosi, Mexico. JOSE
GABINO RODRIGUEZ, mestizo, originario de Xaquesillos,
y vecino de la Hacienda de Solis, de estado soltero;
hijo legitimo de DOMINGO RODRIGUEZ y de MARIA PETRA
difuntos, y de la MARIA MARGARITA MONTOYA: mestiza,
originaria, y vecina de dicha Hacienda; hija legitima
de FLORENCIO MONTOYA y de MARIA JOSEFA YBARRA.  fsp:
PEDRO ROCHA, y VICENTA MONTERO, su esposa.

AND! Gabino Rodrigues Tristan parents Marriage record
indentify the grandparents correctly: 

Film #0708092 item 1, p31 Marriage record 24 February
1794 en la Yglesia del Pueblo de la Hedeonda,
Moctezuma, San Luis Potosi, Mexico. JOSSE MARIA OLALLO
RODRIGUEZ, mulato, originario del Real de Nieves y
vecino de los Orcones sinco anos hace; hijo legitimo
de DOMINGO BONIFACIO RODRIGUES, difunto, y de MARIA
PETRONA REGALADA RAMOS, con MARIA MATHIANA TRISTANA,
mestiza, originaria y vecina de Xaqueysillos; hija
legitima de JUAN NICOLAS OBISPO TRISTAN y de MARIA
DOLORES, ya difunta.

I basically run a search of all names...you would be
surprise on results.

Good hunting

Jose Munoz



--- Arturo Ramos <arturo.ramos2@...> wrote:

> I had run across this before with another record
> that I must have not 
> gotten a copy of and if I remember correctly, I
> think your first 
> theory is correct Jose.
> 
> In this record, Jose Maria Miramontes appears as the
> padrino later in 
> the record, along with his wife.  I think that what
> happened was that 
> perhaps the padrinos went to baptize the child
> without the father and 
> the sacristan must have written down the wrong name

Done!

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Puentes <makas@n...> wrote:
>
> 
> http://www.rawlins.cnchost.com/igi.html
> 
> would anyone care to make a folder in the links area called "IGI 
> Abbreviations" with this link in it?
> 
> joseph
>