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Dear Natalie,

What an interesting post. My Scots mother learned to make flour tortillas from her in-laws. My Tia Offie makes lengua, and it is very tasty. I haven't tasted her cooking in over 20 years because Tia Offie no longer cooks.



When my grandkids are over here, I feed them Peanut Butter and Jelly burritos. They're my favorite snack. Marge:)

On Jul 2, 2005, at 12:36 PM, Natalie wrote:

WOW! 300+ posts in June, and it is only July 2, and there are already 
31 posts! Bring it on!
The food postings have been very interesting, and has caused me to 
reflect on why I cook as I do. My father is my Zacatecas connection; 
he came to the U.S. in 1916 as a 4 yr. old - his mother died when he 
was 17 yrs. old, so I am sure she impacted his culinary tastes and 
traditions. (My mother was born in Calif. - her mother was from 
Mexico, but I don't know where; my mother was 5 yrs. old when her 
mother died; I was almost 12 yrs. when my mother died. I remember her 
as being a good cook - she made flour tortillas everyday, a skill I 
NEVER learned; I don't know her culinary traditions.) Back to my 
father: he loved carnitas, frijoles de olla, birria, cabeza, cesos, 
lengua, capirotada, to name a few. Growing up, these were foods eaten 
only on special occasions or holidays. When I first came to Virginia 
in the late 60's, the only tortillas available were frozen corn 
tortillas!! By the mid-70's, when my children were young, I would 
make sure that they made their acquaintence with tortillas & 
frijoles, tacos & enchiladas (which morphed into a layered casserole -
 too lazy to roll the enchilads; I called them chilaquiles, though 
they aren't truly chilaquiles - my 5 yr. old grandson, of Irish, 
Lithuanian, Anglo, Mexican, maybe Cherokee-heritage, has grown to 
like them). OK - I'm sorry - got off the track.
RE: DNA - Are any of you familiar with the following site:
http://genetealogy.com ? This site was established by Megan Smolenyak 
Smolenyak (that's right, her maiden name and married name), co-author 
of "Trace Your Roots with DNA: Using Genetic Tests to Explore Your 
Family Tree".  See also: Http://genetealogy.com/articles/html/
Very interesting reading for those of you on the DNA track. Well, I 
think I better close for now. Y'all have a great day. Hasta la 
proxima.

Natalie Coleman, VA

I had to chuckle, a little, when I was reading these two stories about your Dads'  and their disinterest in returning to a gravesite of loved ones.  As you all know, my mother was English/Irish.  My Mother also believed in not returning to where the dead were buried.  I once asked her why she would not visit any of our families gravesites to plant flowers, etc;...her response was, "Why?...they are not there; the next time I see them I will join them in Heaven!"  Needless to say, that was the END of that conversation!  It just goes to show, our ancestors of old had shared some very common beliefs, no matter what continent they were born!  haha!

Carol Lester

-----Original Message-----
From: readysetgo95814 <nena@...>
Sent: Jul 2, 2005 2:24 AM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Re: Margarita's rememberance of Jerez, Zacatecas

Wow Irma, your Dad sounds just like mine.  The last time I went to 
San Nicolas with him I asked about going to the cemetery where my 
grandfather is buried and he had no interest in doing that. He asked 
me why I wanted to go.  I explained to him that I might find some 
valuable genealogical information there.  He said there were not many 
headstones and there were mostly wooden crosses on otherwise unmarked 
graves.  I still would like to go and see for myself and plan do so 
sometime in the future.

I also asked him about dia de los Muertos and why we were never told 
about or practiced the custom. He replied that he never did either. 
When I asked him what my grandparents did to honor the dead he told 
me that they prayed the Rosary.  Now that I am researching our 
genealogy and have found that for the last 300 to 500 years our 
ancestors were Catholic I understand the reason.

Maria

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Irma GomezLucero <igomezlucero@c...> 
wrote:
> I envy you Linda.  I tried to get my dad and family in Mexico to 
take me to
> the cemetery where my grandmother was buried.  My dad interrupted 
and
> refused to take me there.  His response was, "Why do you want to go 
to a
> place where everyone is dead when you have all of these live 
relatives?"
> Okay how do you respond when your "live" relatives are staring at 
you.
> Enjoying history, I have always "enjoyed" going to cemeteries 
because there
> is so much history there.  No, I don't like funerals though.  Next 
time I
> will go on my own even if I have to walk there.

David,

Thanks for the explanation.  I had been wondering about the 
term "Estancia".  I've also seen "Estanzuela" and I would guess it 
derived from the word "Estancia"?  The other term I've come across 
is "Puesto".  I picture that to be even smaller than a Rancho, but I 
am not sure.  I really haven't looked into it.  Does anyone know?

Maria Cortez
Elk Grove, CA

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "David P. Delgado" <dpdelgado@j...> 
wrote:
> Joseph,
> 
> I think that the closest English equivalent of "rancho" is "town".  
The word town is as small and varied as the word "rancho".  A town 
can be anything from a single dwelling to a formally organized group 
of homes and families with formal organization.  I think it's 
important to keep in mind that some words in use today are holdovers 
from long ago.  For example, "villa" meant a community with at least 
25 white european families as permanent residents.  Permission had to 
petitioned from the Spanish Crown to be granted such status.  
A "pueblo" was a community in which biracial, white, and indigenous 
people lived.  A "ranchería" was a community of indigenous people 
only (usually "wild", i.e. unbaptized).  The other term I have seen 
while reading old documents is "estancia".  This last word refers to 
a bivouac area.  These terms and their meanings disappeared along 
with the Spanish after Mexico separated from Spain.  I think that the 
word "pueblo" has remained in the voaculary of many people but 
meaning that are different from place to place.  I think it's really 
difficult to find a simple equivalent because words change so much 
over time in English as well as in Spanish.
> 
> David Delgado in Albany, CA
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Puentes <makas@n...>
> Sent: Jul 1, 2005 4:07 PM
> To: LosRanchos <ranchos@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [ranchos] What is a Rancho???
> 
> <html><body>
> 
> 
> <tt>
> <BR>
> What would the English equivelent of a rancho be????<BR>
> <BR>
> I think of it as a small, small community as in a large 
neighborhood.<BR>
> <BR>
> what are others thoughts on this?<BR>
> <BR>
> thanks,<BR>
> <BR>
> joseph<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> </tt>
> 
> 
> <?---- LSpots keywords ?>
>   <?---- HM ADS ?>
>   
> 

Wow Irma, your Dad sounds just like mine.  The last time I went to 
San Nicolas with him I asked about going to the cemetery where my 
grandfather is buried and he had no interest in doing that. He asked 
me why I wanted to go.  I explained to him that I might find some 
valuable genealogical information there.  He said there were not many 
headstones and there were mostly wooden crosses on otherwise unmarked 
graves.  I still would like to go and see for myself and plan do so 
sometime in the future.

I also asked him about dia de los Muertos and why we were never told 
about or practiced the custom. He replied that he never did either. 
When I asked him what my grandparents did to honor the dead he told 
me that they prayed the Rosary.  Now that I am researching our 
genealogy and have found that for the last 300 to 500 years our 
ancestors were Catholic I understand the reason.

Maria

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Irma GomezLucero <igomezlucero@c...> 
wrote:
> I envy you Linda.  I tried to get my dad and family in Mexico to 
take me to
> the cemetery where my grandmother was buried.  My dad interrupted 
and
> refused to take me there.  His response was, "Why do you want to go 
to a
> place where everyone is dead when you have all of these live 
relatives?"
> Okay how do you respond when your "live" relatives are staring at 
you.
> Enjoying history, I have always "enjoyed" going to cemeteries 
because there
> is so much history there.  No, I don't like funerals though.  Next 
time I
> will go on my own even if I have to walk there.
> Along the same vein...  a few years ago, I was asked to do a 
cultural
> presentation of sorts to my daughter's class around Halloween.  I 
decided to
> build "un altar" for El Dia de los Muertos.  When I asked my 
parents about
> this custom, they said, " We don't do that.   Once we bury our 
dead, we go
> to church have Masses said for them, pray for them, but we don't 
hang out at
> cemeteries."  I actually had to do research on the custom which 
more a
> combination of Indigenous beliefs coupled with Catholocism.  I felt 
this was
> a wonderful way to honor your family which has passed away.  I 
built an
> "altar" to my grandparents.  I had my daughter explain what every 
item meant
> to my grandparents.  Her classmates were surprised to find out that 
she had
> never met my abuelitos.  My goal was to remind these children to 
talk to

My father used to refer to Jerez as "mi Pueblo".  Was that correct for his time (1913)?

 

The only other word he would use was "la ciudad de" when he spoke of the larger cities, especially when the city had the same name as the state.

 

Emilie Garcia

Port Orchard, WA

---

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

Many thanks joseph...

Carol Lester

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Puentes <makas@...>
Sent: Jul 1, 2005 4:23 PM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Alvarez, Campos de Momax, Zacatecas


its a list of contact information for the various churches in Zacatecas. 
More of the central churches in the various areas. Look at the message 
from Alicia for more info related to this. Hmmm, I didn't explain that 
very well. . .would anyone care to fill in or correct my fumbling effort?

joseph

Carol Lester wrote:

>Hello Joseph:
>
>I was wondering if you have a copy of the Momax, Zacatecas or Los Velas Momax, Zacatecas areas of the mexican phone book?  If so, is there any 'Campos' or 'Alvarez' names you could send me?  I haven't made much progress with any new information for my mexican families.  Especially Alvarez!  I am beginning to think my father's father was a 'myth'!!  I went to the obispadozacatecas.org.mx/M7.htm site, but I don't understand what it is.  Can you educate me?
>
>Regards,
>Carol Lester
>  
>


 
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Joseph,

I think that the closest English equivalent of "rancho" is "town".  The word town is as small and varied as the word "rancho".  A town can be anything from a single dwelling to a formally organized group of homes and families with formal organization.  I think it's important to keep in mind that some words in use today are holdovers from long ago.  For example, "villa" meant a community with at least 25 white european families as permanent residents.  Permission had to petitioned from the Spanish Crown to be granted such status.  A "pueblo" was a community in which biracial, white, and indigenous people lived.  A "ranchería" was a community of indigenous people only (usually "wild", i.e. unbaptized).  The other term I have seen while reading old documents is "estancia".  This last word refers to a bivouac area.  These terms and their meanings disappeared along with the Spanish after Mexico separated from Spain.  I think that the word "pueblo" has remained in the voaculary of many people but meaning that are different from place to place.  I think it's really difficult to find a simple equivalent because words change so much over time in English as well as in Spanish.

David Delgado in Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Puentes <makas@...>
Sent: Jul 1, 2005 4:07 PM
To: LosRanchos <ranchos@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ranchos] What is a Rancho???

<html><body>


<tt>
<BR>
What would the English equivelent of a rancho be????<BR>
<BR>
I think of it as a small, small community as in a large neighborhood.<BR>
<BR>
what are others thoughts on this?<BR>
<BR>
thanks,<BR>
<BR>
joseph<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>


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Yes, I agree with you.

Alberto Duarte
Santa Maria, California

--- Emilie Garcia <auntyemfaustus@...> wrote:

> Yes,  Alicia,
> 
> I also have wondered where a correspondent on the
> group lives, and thinking it would be helpful to
> those reading my e-mails, I usually end my e-mails
> with my full name and where I am located.  I often
> wish others would do likewise.
> 
> Emilie Garcia
> Port Orchard, WA.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Alicia Carrillo
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 2:22 PM
> To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [ranchos] File - Who's Who
> 
> I know that I have found the who's who extremely
> valuable. When someone sends a message and I'm
> curious about their (specific research area I just
> go to who's who and do a quick look up on their
> area, surnames etc. Sometimes I wonder to myself,
> "where does this person live? and this I can also
> find quickly in who's who. So please if you have not
> already posted on who's who, please do because it's
> so easy to do.
> 
> Thanks.............Alicia
> 
> ranchos@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> 
> New members: Please go to the Database and fill in
> your information. If you are
> old to the group, but haven't submitted your
> information please consider doing it now.
> Here are Angie Godina's Instructions on what you
> need to do. If you have
> any additional questions please direct them to:
> aajay1073@...
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> Thanks to everyone who entered their information.  I
> think it will  
> become very benificial to all of us.
> 
> What I think is good about the database is that when
> you open it up,  
> you are given that "Search This Table" input box. 
> If you type in a  
> surname or a location, it lists out all the people
> searching that  
> surname and or location.  A very useful feature, be
> sure to try it.
> 
> The fields in the table are: Name
> Email Address    {optional}[but provide it anyway,
> jp]
> Research Surnames    {Surnames you are researching.}
> Research Location    {Cities, Towns, Ranchos that
> your ancestors are from}
> My Location    {Your current location - optional}
> 
> So once you are on the database page you just select
> the 'Add Record'  
> link.  Enter your information.  Then select the 'Add

Just one thing that I missed from the last post:

A "Ranchería" is a collection of ranchos.

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Villarreal" <vela_este@y...> 
wrote:
> Emilie,
> 
> In Mexico every State has a constitution that sets its own laws and 
> codes, including the definition and requirements of 
their "Political-
> Administrative Categories".  For example, I found on the Internet 
> some code from the State of Chiapas, which I believe is very much 
> like the code from other Mexican States.  What follows is a summary 
> as far as inhabitants is concerned:
> 
> Name            Inhabitants
> Ciudad (City) at least 10,000 
> Villa (Village) at least 5,000 
> Pueblo (Town) at least 2,500
> Rancherías, Etc. at least 300
> 

Emilie,

In Mexico every State has a constitution that sets its own laws and 
codes, including the definition and requirements of their "Political-
Administrative Categories".  For example, I found on the Internet 
some code from the State of Chiapas, which I believe is very much 
like the code from other Mexican States.  What follows is a summary 
as far as inhabitants is concerned:

Name            Inhabitants
Ciudad (City) at least 10,000 
Villa (Village) at least 5,000 
Pueblo (Town) at least 2,500
Rancherías, Etc. at least 300

What follows is the text in Spanish which sets other requirements.  
Of course as a human settlement grows it acquires a new category, 
which is the same as saying that today's cities are 
yesterday's "rancherías".  Please note that those numbers above are 
taken from the State of Chiapas code.  Zacatecas or Jalisco's 
requirements can vary.

Victor



ARTICULO 5.- LAS CATEGORIAS POLITICO-ADMINISTRATIVAS SE CLASIFICAN EN:
I.- CIUDADES;
II.- VILLAS;
III.- PUEBLOS; Y
IV.- RANCHERIAS, COLONIAS, PARAJES, CANTONES O RIBERAS.

ARTICULO 6.- PARA EL MEJORAMIENTO INTEGRAL DEL ESTADO, DEBE PLANEARSE 
EL DESARROLLO URBANO Y PLANTEARSE LAS CARACTERISTICAS NECESARIAS EN 
UNA CIUDAD NUEVA, ASI COMO, LAS POSIBILIDADES DE MANO DE OBRA, DE 
MATERIA PRIMA Y SOBRE TODO DE MERCADO.

CAPITULO II
DE LAS CIUDADES, VILLAS,  PUEBLOS Y RANCHERIAS

ARTICULO 7.- SE CONSIDERAN CIUDADES NUEVAS PARA LOS EFECTOS DE ESTA 
LEY, LOS NUCLEOS URBANOS INTEGRADOS EN SUPERFICIES DEFINIDAS QUE, 
ADEMAS DE ESTAR DOTADOS DE LAS OBRAS E INSTALACIONES PARA QUE LA VIDA 
EN COMUNIDAD, SE AJUSTE A LOS PRINCIPIOS DE URBANISMO MODERNO, 
CUENTEN CON LOS ELEMENTOS INDISPENSABLES PARA LA PRESTACION DE TODA 
CLASE DE SERVICIOS PUBLICOS Y TENGAN LA CAPACIDAD REQUERIDA PARA 
LOGRAR EL DESARROLLO EN GENERAL, QUE TIENDA AL MEJORAMIENTO DE LA 
COLECTIVIDAD.

ARTICULO 8.- LAS CIUDADES NUEVAS PROCURARAN LOGRAR EL DESARROLLO DE 
LA INDUSTRIA, DEL COMERCIO, DEL TURISMO O DE CUALQUIER OTRA ACTIVIDAD 
QUE COADYUVE AL DESARROLLO INTEGRAL DE LOS NUCLEOS DE POBLACION.

ARTICULO 9.- LOS SERVICIOS PUBLICOS DE LAS CIUDADES NUEVAS, SE 
ESTABLECERAN EN LA FORMA QUE RESULTEN MAS FUNCIONALES CONFORME A LAS 
DISPOSICIONES REGLAMENTARIAS RESPECTIVAS.

ARTICULO 10.- PARA EFECTOS DE CONSIDERAR A UN NUCLEO DE POBLACION 
COMO CIUDAD, DEBERA CUMPLIR CON LOS REQUISITOS SIGUIENTES:

I. TENER POR LO MENOS UNA POBLACION DE DIEZ MIL HABITANTES;

II. CONTAR CON EDIFICIOS ADECUADOS PARA EL FUNCIONAMIENTO DE 

Alicia,

Right.  A "rancho" refers in México to a small plot of land dedicated 
either to agricultural farming or animal husbandry.  It can have one 
or more houses and it usually is the property of a single family.

An "hacienda" is like a ranch but on a much larger scale, it can have 
many houses and people, usually the owners and the workers that 
attend the fields and animals.

A "poblado" is a community or settlement of people larger than a 
rancho or hacienda, but smaller than a village.

The Mexican equivalent of a village is a "villa" or a "pueblo". This 
is the intermediate entity between a poblado and a "ciudad" or city.

Victor
 
--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alicia Carrillo <alliecar@p...> wrote:
> Victor,
>  
> You are correct in your translation, however at least in our region 
and I think that maybe in the other rural towns a rancho as the 
locals call it can be the one house with it's small plot of land. 
When we went in September you travelled down the dirt roads on the 
outskirts of town and every little house had it's own name such as La 
Palma, La Trinidad, El Monte De Duranes etc.
> I have talked to some of the local elders and they said that in the 
past most Ranchos had more than one dwelling with multiple families 
in each Rancho, but now many of the previous Ranchos are abandoned as 
most everyone has left to live en El Norte con los guerros.
>  
> Joseph, I guess just like the foods of Mexico it's all regional, in 
some areas a Rancho is a big ranch and in some areas it can be a 
little cottage.
>  
> Alicia
> 

Literaly, rancho translates as ranch or farm. 


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Puentes <makas@n...> wrote:
>
> What would the English equivelent of a rancho be????
>
> I think of it as a small, small community as in a large neighborhood.
>
> what are others thoughts on this?
>
> thanks,
>
> joseph

Erlinda Castanon-Long wrote:

I found the customs in the area to still be from the old school. I
wanted to walk alone at 6am to take photos and observe. I was told
this would reflect poorly on my family for me to walk the streets
alone, I was 58 at the time. They got their daughter of out bed to
accompany me. Old traditions still abound. I was also told it was my
responsibility to go to the senior member of my family and offer my
respect. I didn't even know I had family there when I arrived. I
ended up going to 14 homes offering my and my families respect. When
it was time to leave I had to go back and "despenser" sp.. myself. At
11pm the last night a family came who said I didn't visit them so they
came to me... I had no idea.. They also asked why their American
cousins had forgotten them? I had no answers for them. The senior
member was 96 years old and remembered my grandmother, her Tia. They
pulled out photos of me when I wa! s 2 years old! When it comes to
customs and manners I found I had a lot to learn from new found family
members and thier old world ways. I'm sure others visiting the "Old"
country have found similar experiences.

Linda

thanks for telling this story of your experiences. Our history is there
in Mexico. Our family is there in Mexico. Our roots are there in Mexico.
The genealogy records will wait but the oral history and our relatives
will not.

thanks Linda,

joseph

El Rancho del Durazno in 2005 has abt 150 homes and 350 people, I 
would have to call it a village...Maybe when it started Rancho was 
appropriate but now it's just tradition..  I would think that in 1575  
it was a working rancho... 

Linda

Literaly, rancho translates as ranch or farm.  


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Puentes <makas@n...> wrote:
> 
> What would the English equivelent of a rancho be????
> 
> I think of it as a small, small community as in a large neighborhood.
> 
> what are others thoughts on this?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> joseph

What would the English equivelent of a rancho be????

I think of it as a small, small community as in a large neighborhood.

what are others thoughts on this?

thanks,

joseph

New members: Please go to the Database and fill in your information. If you are
old to the group, but haven't submitted your information please consider doing it now.
Here are Angie Godina's Instructions on what you need to do. If you have
any additional questions please direct them to: aajay1073@...

---------------------------------

Thanks to everyone who entered their information.  I think it will
become very benificial to all of us.

What I think is good about the database is that when you open it up,
you are given that "Search This Table" input box.  If you type in a
surname or a location, it lists out all the people searching that
surname and or location.  A very useful feature, be sure to try it.

The fields in the table are: Name
Email Address    {optional}[but provide it anyway,
jp]
Research Surnames    {Surnames you are researching.}
Research Location    {Cities, Towns, Ranchos that your ancestors are from.}
My Location    {Your current location - optional}

So once you are on the database page you just select the 'Add Record'
link.  Enter your information.  Then select the 'Add Record' button. 
You should then be able to see your record in the table.  The edit
link will allow you to modify your record at any time.

That should do it...

Thanks,
Angie

P.S.  Isn't it kind of convenient that my record shows up first.  I,
of course, planned it that way...

its a list of contact information for the various churches in Zacatecas.
More of the central churches in the various areas. Look at the message
from Alicia for more info related to this. Hmmm, I didn't explain that
very well. . .would anyone care to fill in or correct my fumbling effort?

joseph

Carol Lester wrote:

Hello Joseph:

I was wondering if you have a copy of the Momax, Zacatecas or Los Velas Momax, Zacatecas areas of the mexican phone book?  If so, is there any 'Campos' or 'Alvarez' names you could send me?  I haven't made much progress with any new information for my mexican families.  Especially Alvarez!  I am beginning to think my father's father was a 'myth'!!  I went to the obispadozacatecas.org.mx/M7.htm site, but I don't understand what it is.  Can you educate me?

Regards,
Carol Lester

Hello group,

I've finally posted all my data on Ancestry.com.  Most of the work is 
from the District of Jerez Zacatecas.  If you are looking for any 
family from there please check my file online and go to index and it 
will give you all the names listed in my data.  I hope I have 
something that's of use to others in the group. I'm just now really 
getting into the records from Atoyac, Zapotlan El Grande/Ciudad 
Guzman, Zapotiltic and Tamazula de Gordiano Jalisco.  If you put 
Castanon, Zacatecas Mexico it will give you my file, go from there!
Linda

Whose file is this?

I would really like to keep genealogies off of the public archives.
Remember the messages are open to the public and the genealogies are
restricted to members only.
Please don't send genealogies to the group via an email. If you want
your genealogies put into your file you need to send it to me and I'll
add it to your file. If you are new to the group I'll make up a folder
for you in "YahooBriefcase" and add a link to your work in the links
area under "AAAA-Genealogies"

let me know if you have any questions,

joseph

ranchos@yahoogroups.com wrote:

File : Registar of Agatito Davila.pdf
Description : AgatitoDavila

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