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Steven,

Esta pareja aún sigue siendo un misterio para mí. Espero que haya otro miembro del foro que nos puede ayudar. Sí noté que te falta una hija llamada Margarita Romo de Vivar. La cual se casó el 15 de enero de 1741 con Cristóbal Gómez de Cornejo en Jalostotitlán. Este caballero era originario de la Ciudad de Méjico, siendo hijo legítimo de Francisco Gómez y Mariana Ramírez. Creo que el Cornejo entra por el lado materno, que pudiera ser Ramírez Cornejo, una familia vinculada estrechamente con las familias de Jalostotitlán.

Matrimonio de Cristóbal y Margarita:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-XYHN?i=440&cc=1874591&…

Saludos,

Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino

Esther,
Retoños translates to shoots or sprouts. The title of Mariano González Leal’s book, Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia, could be translated to something like, Spanish Sprouts (descendants) in New Galicia.

There might have been a newer post about someone offering copies, but this is the only conversation I found. However, I went to the library and had them ordered. I was not prepared for the size of the volume (s) some have two and they only let you have one Tomo at a time, for a limited time with no extra time given. So if you know someone close by who is also interested he/she can order them as well. together you both would have a better chance to review the volume(s).

This was a conversation about them.

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/24079

Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia

Tomo 1 Estudios Histórico, antropológico, genealógico y biográfico sobre la población española de la zona oriental de la Nueva Galicia, desde su establecimiento en la región hasta nuestros días
> Tomo 2 Diccionario Genealógico de las familias alteñas (ABALZA-CANO)
> Tomo 3 Diccionario Genealógico de las familias alteñas (CARLIN-GARCIA DE CUEVAS)
> Tomo 4 Diccionario Genealógico de las familias

I would be interested in a copies also. Or for the very least renting copies or something along those lines.

Carlos

Saludos Francisco!

Ojala nos podemos ayudar en nuestra investigación de los Ibarra (Ybarra) de la zona de Chapala. No sabía que Martin Ibarra fue casado con Ines de Solis. No sé si tú has visto la dispensa por el matrimonio de Jose Teodoro Ibarra Quiñones y Lorenza de Siordia Zepeda. Alex y yo apenas habíamos empezado hablar sobre esta y otra dispensa (relacionada con la familia Plasencia) aquí: http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/18788?page=3

Esencialmente, hay dos dispensas que nos dan dos árboles de parentesco:

Agundis-Mondragon dispensa:

Tronco Desconocido
Pedro de Plasencia el Viejo c. Mariana Aceves - 1 - Unknown Plasencia c. Ana Diaz Ibarra
Maria de Plasencia c. desconocido - 2 - Mariana de Plasencia c. Nicolas de Siordia
Maria de Plasencia etc. c. Francisco Agundis - 3 - Gertrudis Mondragon (pretensa)
Leandro de Agundis (pretenso) – 4

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6K93-SK?i=400&wc=12512…

Ibarra-Siordia dispensa:

Tronco: Francisco de

Hi,
According with the book of "descubrimiento del parral" (has a glossary at the end)

Legua: Medida lineal de 5 000 varas o sea 4 190 metros; se dividia en dos medias y cuatro cuartos. Segun un sistema antiguo, empleado para la medicion de tierras, la legua se dividia en tres millas, cada milla en mil pasos de Salomon, y cada paso en cinco tercias de vara; asi, la legua tenia 3000 pasos de Salomon, que se llamaban vara.

I hope it helps

sus

Hello,

2 recomendations:

1. PARTIDOS Y PADRONES DEL OBISPADO DE MICHOACAN 1680-1685. Lots of census for many places in michoacan

2. I would visit LIBRERIA COLMICH. they are part of the COLEGIO DE MICHOACAN. The bookstore has many books for michoacan and colima. I have bought in the past books from them. I don't know if they ship out of the country you would have to ask. Best source for books for the area
http://www.libreriacolmich.com/

I hope this helps

Susana L

Are you able to connect her to any siblings?

Bienvenido Salvador,

Yo tengo a varios Carrillo y Avila en Jerez. Te comento que existio el matrimonio de Pedro Carrillo de Avila y Maria Sancha de Velmar en Jerez. Unos de sus hijos llevaron el apellido Carrillo (Ana Maria Carrillo) y otro el Avila (Alonso de Avila).

Suerte y otra vez bienvenido

sus Leniski

I have found so many new ancestors on my Tello lineage and still many to connect to missing couples. I have a Luis Tello born 1885 from San Pedro Zacatecas. His parents were Jose Daniel Teyo and Camila Martinez. I'm hoping Ms Gloria Tello Jackson might contact me so I can exchange information and perhaps find other missing names from my tree.

Welcome to the forum Gloria. I'm sure you will find it very rewarding.

You may want to read through this recent thread. A Martin Tello Orozco was the first husband of my 8x Great Grandmother - Lorenza de Haro.

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/21785

You might want to start a tree from the top down with Martin's father Francisco Tello Orozco, b: abt 1595.

Good luck in your search,
Roy

If he was from Aguascalientes, causas criminales can be found in the Acervo Digital del Archivo Historico. Maybe there’s something on your ancestor there. It’s been years since I used this archive, since they moved it, but it’s still available online:
http://eservicios.aguascalientes.gob.mx/seggob/acervodigital/bienvenido…

Let me know how that works out.
Suerte!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Dear Marty,

In order to help you in your research you need to provide information on your great grandfather that will help guide us in identifying him.

You may start off by gathering as much information as you can on him.

The names of his wife /wives, siblings, and children. Dates and locations to go with each name wherever possible. Any information that specifically identifies him. The records of his children and his siblings may provide valuable clues on how to proceed with your research

Good luck,
Rick A. Ricci

Might I ask, what is the status on indexing of the Cotlan records?

Just curious. Did you ever corral a group of volunteers?

well the colotlan records available on family search are partially indexed. what would be awesome if familysearch were to acquire/digitize more records from that city. i'd love to look at pre-1720 marriage records from there.

but if you were t index the remaining unindexed record, you'd need to find which ones are and which aren't.

"Por derecho canónico se llaman espurios los que nacen fuera de matrimonio y de padres que no podían casarse al tiempo de la concepción o al del nacimiento y por derecho romano se da esta denominación no solo a los que no tienen padre cierto, sino también a los que lo tienen, pero no pueden honestamente nombrarle, por ser fraile o clérigo o pariente cercano de la madre o por estar casados esta o aquel o los dos con otras personas."

My translation:
Per Canon law, persons are called "spurious" who are born out of wedlock and from parents who could not marry at the time of conception or at the time of birth, and per Roman law this denomination is given not only to those who don't have a father, but also to those who have one but cannot honestly outright name them because the father was a missionary or clergy or close family relation to the mother, or because either one or both parents were married to other people.

So there you go. Hijinks galore in Ayotlan.

~Sandra

Just thinking out loud, but could it be (due to timing of the records) that in this parish, children of common-law or civil marriages were considered "naturales" (as civil marriages were becoming more of a thing yet the Church didn't recognize them as married) and children who were from parents who weren't paired up in any recognized fashion were the ones labeled "espurio/a?"

I do love the fact that the padrecitos listed not only the names of the fathers, but also the paternal grandparents! The father's name was normally left off of their "illegitimate" children's documents, leaving the mother to carry the responsibility, at least on paper. :)

Just a guess. I've also never seen that label before as Esp.a/o usually indicated non-indigenous, but by the 1800's folks were mixing pretty well.

~Sandra

Could it be espuria, which is also another way to say illegitimate? I wasn't able to determine a difference between the two based on the use in this source.

I am reading it as espuna as well.

I am not sure of the meaning and in my limited experience reading documents I haven't seen that word before, but I will take a few guess.

1. Both H. Esp (hija espuna) and H.N. (hija natural) are both illegitimate/out of wedlock (or whatever term there is) children. When they say espuna they are meaning espanola, and when they say natural they are meaning indian/native. Kind of like records that say vecino de (insert town) or natural de (insert town).

2. Or it could mean, parents are a couple but not married and for the other parents not together.

Check other records of the people in the document to see patterns. It might help.

Dado lo cerca que está Jacona de Zamora (muchísimo más cerca que Chilchota), ¿ha considerado buscar el registro de bautismo allí?

Jacona de Plancarte
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/322621?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Enrique,

Sugiero revises los mismos libros pero más atrás en el tiempo. En esos tiempos las personas no eran muy certeras al dar sus edades, me han tocado muchos casos así.

Saludos y éxito en tu búsqueda,

Bernardo Menchaca

Buenas Tardes Enrique,

Desafortunadamente, no tengo informacion para compartirte pero se me vino a la mente lo siguiente... Sera que fueron parientes por afinidad o consanguinidad y por eso no encuentras la partida de su matrimonio? En Zamora, existe mas de una dispensa en donde los Garibay/Ochoa Garibay y los Guterrez/Gutierrez de Robles se casaron entre si. Si es asi y fueron parientes que ocuparon una dispensa... La tendras que buscar en los archivos del antiguo Obispado de Michoacan.

Daniel Serna Valencia

Thanks to both of you for the link and attachments.

Rick A. Ricci

Here is the link to the book in PDF:
https://ia800703.us.archive.org/13/items/historiadenuest00santgoog/hist…

(Wikipedia)Spanish has not used the symbol since an orthographic reform in the 18th century (which replaced ç with the now-devoiced z), but it was adopted for writing other languages.
ç (lower case, upper case Ç) "c cédille", the letter c with a cedilla; Usage notes . Ç is not considered a distinct letter, but a variant of C. It is used where a c pronounced /s/ occurs before a , o or u (due to etymology or inflection).

You will see it in some of the old Spanish text MOÇO

Andres Rubalcava and María Vicenta Ferrer Muñoz are also the parents of Basilio Rubalcaba who married on 25/May/1820 to Guadalupe Guerrero, daughter of Luis Antonio Guerrero and María Francisca Quesada.

Rick A. Ricci

Ricardo:

Encontré un artículo llamado "Familias de hidalgos toledanos del Siglo XVI al XIX" en el blog ciudaddelastresculturastoledo.blogspot, ahí se precisa que hay un hidalgo registrado en Alcaudete llamado Juan Angulo Montesinos. Hay varios Angulo en Consuegra, tierra de la encomienda de la Orden de San Juan de Jerusalén.

Lo más probable es que Don Alonso provenga de Alcaudete, ya que el conde de Alcaudete, Don Martín de Córdova, fue de los conquistadores de Orán, incluso murió en África.

En libro "Historia Genealógica de la Casa de Lara" página 592 se menciona a Don Pedro de Angulo y Montesinos como testigo de un privilegio otorgado a otra persona.

Hay otro libro en línea (online) llamado "Orán, Mazalquivir 1589-1639 una sociedad española en frontera de Berbería" de Beatriz Alonso Acero. En la página 117 se relata que había en Orán hacia 1589 cinco compañías de infantería, una de ellas era comandada por el Capitán Don Alonso de Angulo y Montesinos, en 1602 es nombrado Capitán

married to
Alonso De Angulo Montecinos De La Isla
1517 • LZ4Z-8Y9
​
Their child is Beatriz

Beatriz De Angulo Montecinos De La Isla
1525 – LZ4Z-82

Don't know if this is the same couple but they were found in Familysearch.org only her parents are listed.

Hola Enrique, que coincidencia, precisamente ayer estaba leyendo la dispensa de Efigenia Garcia de Alba, (nieta de Francisco Garcia) para su matrimonio con Salvador de Covarrubias (nieto de Juana Betancourt, la hermana de Isabel Betancourt, hijas de Isabel Fca. Ruiz). Desgraciadamente no tengo nada nuevo que aportar a tu post, pero estoy siguiendo con interes a esta familia yo tambien,

Aqui esta el link a la dispensa por si a alguien le interesa:

El parentezco se explica en la pagina 64

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6L98-4Y?i=61&cc=1874591

Saludos

Thank you Wesley! Those burials you mention are the only ones I have found
too, but I'm pretty sure to have seen a list of burials in the 1630's
somewhere in this forum. Hopefully someone will have more information.
Unfortunately I'm moving and my books are in boxes, perhaps some more
information appears in Arturo Ramos's book.

Thank you Wesley! Those burials you mention are the only ones I have found too, but I'm pretty sure to have seen a list of burials in the 1630's somewhere in this forum. Hopefully someone will have more information. Unfortunately I'm moving and my books are in boxes, perhaps some more information appears in Arturo Ramos's book.

Mariana Marzelina De Jesus Gonzalez Gutierres

Padre : José Cayetano González Macias

Abuelos paternos
Jose Angel González
María de San Jose Macias

Padres de José Ángel : Francisco Xavier González y María Theresa Vasquez
Padres de María de San Jose ,: Lucas Macias De Anda (Fernandez de Anda) y Brígida Gonzalez-Rubio Garcia

Madre : María Gertrudis Gutiérrez de Hermosillo Romo
Abuelos maternos
Jose Antonio Gutiérrez de Hermosillo Gómez y Juana Romo Marquez

Padres de José Antonio : Francisco Gutiérrez de Hermosillo De La Mora y María de los Dolores Gómez
Padres de Juana: Agustín Romo de Vivar Jiménez y Petra Antonia Marquez Muñoz

Rick A. Ricci

Mariana child of Jose Cayetano Gonzales and Maria Gertrudis Gutierres de Hermosillo Romo
Sometimes when there are dif capillas, the years repeat with the new capilla or "con la ayuda de"

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KM9B-ML

Jose Cayetano Gonzales 1778–Deceased • GSKG-JTN​​
Marriage: 11 JUN 1797
Santa Maria De Los Lagos,Lagos De Moreno,Jalisco,Mexico

María Gertrudis Gutiérrez de Hermosillo, Romo de Vivar
Deceased •LYP2-R9X

En mis ancestros pasó lo mismo; varias veces asi que tengo que buscar un poco menos, pero aun me falta mucho por encontrar; yo siempre medito en como seria su vida y cuando encuentro un doumento busco que estaba pasando en el pais cuando ese ancestro mio estaba siendo bautizado o se estaba matrimoniando; esto de buscar nuestras raices es emocionante

Saludos

Salvador Martinez

Thank you for sharing this !

I always think of the struggles they must have endured, even as we have struggles of our own in our modern world, I feel like we have so much to be thankful for...

Cheers

Thank you for sharing your uncles list of abuelos (I will keep it handy). What he states is what I would imagine my maternal abuela would say as she was the generation in the struggle for independence, Cristero War, etc.

If it wasn’t for our ancestors marrying near and distant relatives then
“Sólo del total de las 11 últimas generaciones,
Fueron necesarios * 4.094 ancestros * para estar aquí hoy ...¡Cerca de 300 años antes de nacer..”.

But in Los Altos de Jalisco family often married family, that is why so many marriage dispensations were required. My Father is a third cousin of my maternal grandmother, my maternal maternal great great grandparents were second cousins twice, my wife and I are fifth cousins. i descend from Josesito Martin’s del campo seven times through the marriages of his descendants. My wife descends from Josesito Martin del Campo twice.I could go on and on.

My research shows that many of the first settlers in Los Altos de Jalisco descended from common ancestors in Spain. So my family tree over 25 generations expands, condenses, expands again, condenses again repeatedly.

Rick A. Ricci
Mygenes2000