Responses to my Names Message


In a message dated 9/10/2004 11:21:17 AM Central Standard Time, alice_wissing@... writes:

As far as some states never mentioning or listing the father's name,
why would the priests try so hard to protect his identity?  Double
standards, perhaps, or is there a Catholic or cultural thing I'm not
understanding?

Let's see if I can get this right:  The priests would not necessarily be protecting the identity of the father, more like the priest would have not sanctioned such an off-spring, and so the woman and child forever was "labeled" because of their parent's indiscretions.  However, on the other hand, where the Catholic Church and government often acted in unison - it meant that the illigitimate child and the mother never would have an opportunity to claim any inheritance from the father's family. 

Responses to my Names Message

Helyn,

 

I like that one!  I'd like to hear what the guys have to say about all this.

 

Alicia

Santos Luna <mistyriver123@...> wrote:


Alicia: I understand that there is a term, that has been passed down for generations.

"hijos de la Iglesia"

Happy Hunting/Helyn

alice_wissing <alice_wissing@...> wrote:

Thanks everybody for your interesting feedback.  Another perspective
is that if an illegitimate child was born of an Indian woman without
a last name and a man with one, the child would be given the
father's last name by default.

As far as some states never mentioning or listing the father's name,
why would the priests try so hard to protect his identity?  Double
standards, perhaps, or is there a Catholic or cultural thing I'm not
understanding?

Thanks - I always learn so much from this group.

Alicia








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Responses to my Names Message

size=2>Alicia:

This
was probably true in other religions at that time, not just
catholic.

size=2> 

size=2>Alberto


size=2>-----Original Message-----
From: alice_wissing
[mailto:alice_wissing@...]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004
9:20 AM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos]
Responses to my Names Message

Thanks everybody for
your interesting feedback.  Another perspective
is that if an
illegitimate child was born of an Indian woman without
a last name and a
man with one, the child would be given the
father's last name by
default.

As far as some states never mentioning or listing the father's
name,
why would the priests try so hard to protect his identity? 
Double
standards, perhaps, or is there a Catholic or cultural thing I'm
not
understanding?

Thanks - I always learn so much from this
group.

Alicia




Responses to my Names Message

Alicia: I understand that there is a term, that has been passed down for generations.

"hijos de la Iglesia"

Happy Hunting/Helyn

alice_wissing <alice_wissing@...> wrote:

Thanks everybody for your interesting feedback.  Another perspective
is that if an illegitimate child was born of an Indian woman without
a last name and a man with one, the child would be given the
father's last name by default.

As far as some states never mentioning or listing the father's name,
why would the priests try so hard to protect his identity?  Double
standards, perhaps, or is there a Catholic or cultural thing I'm not
understanding?

Thanks - I always learn so much from this group.

Alicia






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Responses to my Names Message

Thanks everybody for your interesting feedback.  Another perspective 
is that if an illegitimate child was born of an Indian woman without 
a last name and a man with one, the child would be given the 
father's last name by default.

As far as some states never mentioning or listing the father's name, 
why would the priests try so hard to protect his identity?  Double 
standards, perhaps, or is there a Catholic or cultural thing I'm not 
understanding?
 
Thanks - I always learn so much from this group.

Alicia




Names

 Another perspective is that the "Indios" who were eventually given a last name, took the name from either the priest or the godparent or even the rancho where they were virtually indentured slaves to the land - so the lineage with respect to some of our ancestors may indeed not be our own!

 

Esperanza

Names (to Janet)

Hello Janet.

I think I had contact with you in the past. I am sorry to tell you, 
but my Cervantes ancestors are all from the Zacoalco area (Santa 
Catarina, San Marcos, Atotonilco el Bajo, San Andres, Los Pozos). 
Also, I strongly believe that my Ramirez line is from El Crucero, a 
town close to Zacoalco.

However, I do have ancestors from Atenguillo and Acatitlan, which is 
close to Guachinango. My family surnames from this area are Curiel, 
Diaz, Pena, and Casares, but I have not researched these lines a lot. 
Something interesting that I have noticed is that everytime I know of 
someone researching this area, they all have a Curiel branch on their 
family tree. I bet that you do, too. Once, when I was checking a 
baptism book from Atenguillo, I noticed that "Curiel" was one of the 
most common surnames in the index. Up to this date I have confirmed a 
family tie to only one other Curiel researcher, but I am confident 
that all the Curieles around this area descend from a single ancestor.

Let me know what you think about it.

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Iglesias" <reynavaleria@h...> 
wrote:
> Hello:
> 
> I was reading your entry and wondering if there was a connection. 
My grandmother maiden name was Cervantes Castrejon and was raised in 
Manzanillo, Colima. Her fathers name was Pedro Cervantes. I also have 
Ramirez in the family tree from my fathers side "Iglesias" from 
Guachinango, Jalisco and my mother side "Ramirez" is from Coahuila 
(we think).
> 
> Please let me know.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Janet
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: sgapodaca 
>   To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 10:06 AM
>   Subject: [ranchos] Re: Names
> 
> 
>   Hello. During my research, I once found a record of an 
illegitimate 
>   child just by chance. I was checking the baptisms in Atotonilco 
el 
>   bajo/santa clara, Jalisco of children with the last name 
Cervantes. 
>   Most of them were not related to me, but I found a girl whose 
last 
>   name was Cervantes. she was the illegitimate daughter of a woman 
with 
>   the last name Hernandez and of my greatgrandfather's brother 
Bacilio 
>   Apodaca. However, she was not named neither Apodaca or Hernandez. 
>   Why? Because in the record it showed that this child was not 
claimed 
>   by the father, but by the paternal grandmother, Guadalupe 
Cervantes. 

Names

And also, why would only a first name be listed for a mother? I see this
all the time while perusing the IGI.



I too have noticed that at times the mother's surname is not listed
on one christening record and is written on others. However, with the
records I've researched, when the surname is not ever mentioned, she
probably was Indian. The father's surname is often not mentioned either if
he was Indian, especially in the 1700s.


~Deena Ortiz~



Names


To address the issue of only using the first name for a mother on a baptismal record.

I was told by a researcher that the mother would have been "India", and did not have a surname however, she was given a Christian name by the priest. Also, once the woman, "India", married she would then take her husbands surname.

I would guess that this was the researchers conclusion.

Happy Hunting

Helyn Castaneda

alice_wissing <alice_wissing@...> wrote:

While looking at the International Genealogical Index I came across
an ancestor possibly having a child with a woman other than his wife
during the late 1700's.  The child carried the father's last name
only (no mother's name attached at the end)and only the mother's
first name was listed.  I was under the impression an illegitimate
child never used his father's last name, so this confused me.

I've ordered a copy of the entry from the History Center, but it
will take weeks for me to receive it.  In the meantime, does anyone
know if there were strict standards regarding an illegitimate
child's use of a father's last name?  And also, why would only a 
first name be listed for a mother?  I see this all the time while
perusing the IGI. 

Thanks,

Alicia









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Names

Hello. During my research, I once found a record of an illegitimate 
child just by chance. I was checking the baptisms in Atotonilco el 
bajo/santa clara, Jalisco of children with the last name Cervantes. 
Most of them were not related to me, but I found a girl whose last 
name was Cervantes. she was the illegitimate daughter of a woman with 
the last name Hernandez and of my greatgrandfather's brother Bacilio 
Apodaca. However, she was not named neither Apodaca or Hernandez. 
Why? Because in the record it showed that this child was not claimed 
by the father, but by the paternal grandmother, Guadalupe Cervantes. 
So, in this case, the child inherited the paternal's grandmother's 
maiden surname. 

I believe there's not a standard about naming illegitimate children, 
since my second great grandfather Evaristo Ramirez kept the last name 
of his father, even though he was a natural child.

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "alice_wissing" <alice_wissing@y...> 
wrote:
> While looking at the International Genealogical Index I came across 
> an ancestor possibly having a child with a woman other than his 
wife 
> during the late 1700's.  The child carried the father's last name 
> only (no mother's name attached at the end)and only the mother's 
> first name was listed.  I was under the impression an illegitimate 
> child never used his father's last name, so this confused me.
> 
> I've ordered a copy of the entry from the History Center, but it 
> will take weeks for me to receive it.  In the meantime, does anyone 
> know if there were strict standards regarding an illegitimate 
> child's use of a father's last name?  And also, why would only a  
> first name be listed for a mother?  I see this all the time while 
> perusing the IGI.  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Alicia


Names

While looking at the International Genealogical Index I came across 
an ancestor possibly having a child with a woman other than his wife 
during the late 1700's.  The child carried the father's last name 
only (no mother's name attached at the end)and only the mother's 
first name was listed.  I was under the impression an illegitimate 
child never used his father's last name, so this confused me.

I've ordered a copy of the entry from the History Center, but it 
will take weeks for me to receive it.  In the meantime, does anyone 
know if there were strict standards regarding an illegitimate 
child's use of a father's last name?  And also, why would only a  
first name be listed for a mother?  I see this all the time while 
perusing the IGI.  

Thanks,

Alicia


Luz Montejano Chats




style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 204);">Luz Montejano de Mexico 


href="mailto:M%C3%A9xicoluzmontejano@...">luzmontejano@...


Visita mi pagina Web: www.prodigyweb.net.mx/luzmontejano

Luz Montejano de México, a partir del día
martes 7 de septiembre de 17:00 a 18:00 p.m., tiempo de la Cd. de
México, estará todos los martes trasmitiendo vía Radio Internet a
través del reproductor de  www.viastereo.com  su programa "GENEALOGÍA
PARA TODOS", buscando a nuestros ancestros, en ESPAÑOL. Contará en ese
mismo horario con el Chat de MSM Messenger con la dirección
genealogiaparatodos@...

Este programa tendrá como objeto principal
el compartir y difundir la genealogía, sobre todo en mi país MÉXICO,
por lo cual se tratará de platicar sobre archivos históricos mexicanos,
recomendar libros que nos pueden auxiliar, entrevistar a todo aquel que
nos aporte conocimiento genealógico, histórico e incluso archivístico y
por supuesto este programa intentará ser una vía mas para compartir con
otros nuestras dudas, pero también nuestras experiencias.

¡Los invito a disfrutar y a
participar conmigo para hacer de este programa "GENEALOGÍA PARA
TODOS" de un buen rato genealógico!

Tlajomulco





sgapodaca wrote:

Hello. I am stuck with a branch of my genealogy and have a doubt 
that maybe some of you may answer. When you think that you found 
your earliest ancestor in Mexico, how do you start your research on 
that line on another country?

Well if it were me I'd start by evaluating the evidence pointing me to
another country. If I had strong compelling evidence I'd consider a
move in that direction. If I didn't I'd search frame by frame films
easily avialable via the LDS system. If that didn't work I'd go to
outside the LDS system info or be looking into this info at the same
time. . .maybe some Tlajomulco letters to the church(s) are in order or
possibly consider a one time consultation with someone that is well
versed in the history/genealogy of that area. Below there is a census
from the Archivo de Indias that is available with some effort. I guess
the main point I'm trying to make is to make sure you are pointed in
the right direction before you jump. . .otherwise you might be jumping
into years of wrong direction moves.

 The reason I am asking this is because 
I cannot find any information on the IGI about my Apodaca ancestors 
in Jalisco before 1784.

well keep it in mind that the IGI reflects only a small percentage of
what is actually available. Not only a small percent of  what is
available via the LDS library but even a smaller percent of what is
available outside the LDS library.  If your Apodaca ancestors also came
from the Tlajomulco area you have great Census records available going
back to 1777 (from Seville) or 1778-1813 from LDS (224894) [see the
Ranchos2 file on Dr. Platt's Census records]. Have you checked Luz
Montejano's book on Marriage dispensations? Even if you don't find
anything there that is only a percentage of what is available on
dispensas via the LDS library from the Guadalajara Diocesis.

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