TEST SITE - DO NOT USE - Development only

Wow, I did not realize this would be such a hot topic! 



Now as far as a husband adopting his wife's surname as his own, I have NEVER, ever seen this happen.  I all my time as a researcher, historian, and genealogist, since 1992, I have not seen this phenomenon. 



Now it may be the case where the children, even the males, like has been said adopt their mother's surname.  So the child of, for example, José Sánchez and María Pérez, Juan Sánchez Pérez, goes by Juan Pérez more than Juan Sánchez.  Thus Juan Pérez will marry and have children that become Pérez, thus abandoning their true paternal surname, Sánchez.  But what I've never seen happening is that José Sánchez would adopt his wife's surname, Pérez as his own.  That would be unheard of.



Traditionally, and this has been a long-standing tradition, women keep their own surname all their lives, even after marriage.  To continue using the previous fictitious couple, José Sánchez and María Pérez, had they lived 175-350 years ago, María Pérez would have been María Pérez, from the cradle to the grave.  But as María Cortez quite accurately pointed out, traditions indeed change.  Nowadays, our María Pérez's name would change after she married.  She would be called María Pérez de Sánchez, to show she's married to a Sánchez.  And there was a time when this was done even in the old days, so there was a time of slowly changing traditions and naming patterns; a time when there was an overlapping of naming traditions. 

As I re-read what I wrote here... I realize what I said may not have 
been clear.  Therefore just to clarify....{once again}

What I meant by "the males in the family took the wife's surname", 
was that the male children took their mother's surname.  And, "the 
females took the husband's surname", was that the female children 
took their father's surname.

Hope this makes more sense...

Angie.

P.S.  Perhaps I need to get change for my two cents...

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "aajay1073" <aajay1073@y...> wrote:
> I read somewhere, {and I can't remember where, but I tried looking 
> for my source for this information}, that if the wife's family was 
of 
> a higher status or surname was 'better' {in using measurements 
during 
> that time period}, then the males in the family took the wife's 
> surname which would then pass to their children.  And the females 
> took the husband's surname which would get passed to their children 
> as the secondary surname.
> 
> In terms of mispellings or spelling variations.  Again, I read 
> somewhere, the person recording the name tended to be more educated 
> then the general people. Therefore, it would have been 'beneath' 
him 
> to ask how to spell a name to someone who was less educated them 
he.  
> The ability to read and write was not wide spread, but more than 
> likely even those people who did know how to write, were probably 
> still not asked the correct way to spell their name.
> 
> just me two cents...
> 
> Angie

Just to clarify the example that I read...using your example...  The 
husband doesn't neccessarily have to take on the surname of his 
wife's father.  But in your example, you have a Carlos Garcia Mendez 
and a Carlita Garcia Mendez, two siblings.  Carlos gets married and 
has children and on his wedding records and his children's baptismal 
records he is referred to as Carlos Mendez, basically dropping the 
Garcia.  His children then become Jose Mendez Lopez, where Lopez is 
his wife's surname.  Carlita on the other hand, when she gets married 
and has children she is referred to as Carlita Garcia.  Her children 
are then Jose Lopez Garcia, where Lopez is her husband's surname.  So 
these two siblings end up having different surnames.

Thanks,
Angie.

P.S. Still looking for my source...

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Jose  Macias" <usa20@e...> wrote:
> Angie;  Though I can see the logic of what you say you may have 
read, I have never seen this to be the case in taking the surname of 
the wife.  
>   As you know, the child of Hector Garcia and Rosa Mendez would be 
for example Carlita Garcia Mendez.  I have never seen a man change 
his name to Hector Mendez.  It is not true in Mexico, Central America 
or  South America, is it true maybe in Spain or Portugal ?  A family 
name is very important and I have never seen a case where a man would 
change his surname to that of his wife's father.  I wonder where you 
read this ? Traditionally the woman keeps her maiden name in that way 
even after marriage. 
>   I know about the variations in the spelling of names. I have seen 
some very strange attempts to spell Indian names by phonetics.
>   Anyway, I found your entry very enlightening and will remember to 
keep it in mind as I look over the records from now on.  If you will 
tell me where you have seen this practice, it would help me very much.
> 
> Jose L. Macias
> usa20@e... 

Jose and Angie,
I seem to recall reading something about this subject.  It might have 
been in "Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia" by Mariano González-
Leal. Possibly the Franco de Paredes chapter.  I would have to concur 
with Angie's statements, unless my memory is failing me.  The case 
study was where the husband added his wife's surname to his own.  He 
might have been Franco and the wife was Paredes so the husband added 
Paredes to his own surname. The reason for the addition is just what 
Angie said: the wife's surname carried more prestige than the 
husband's.  Steven may be able to shed some light on this.  I believe 
he is contributing to the newest edition of Retoños.
One thing we should keep in mind when you say "traditionally the wife 
keeps her maiden name" is that traditions change over time and it all 
depends on what century you are debating.  There is a big difference 
in naming patterns in say 1580 and 1920.

Maria
--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Jose  Macias" <usa20@e...> wrote:
> Angie;  Though I can see the logic of what you say you may have 
read, I have never seen this to be the case in taking the surname of 
the wife.  
>   As you know, the child of Hector Garcia and Rosa Mendez would be 
for example Carlita Garcia Mendez.  I have never seen a man change 
his name to Hector Mendez.  It is not true in Mexico, Central America 
or  South America, is it true maybe in Spain or Portugal ?  A family 
name is very important and I have never seen a case where a man would 
change his surname to that of his wife's father.  I wonder where you 
read this ? Traditionally the woman keeps her maiden name in that way 
even after marriage. 
>   I know about the variations in the spelling of names. I have seen 
some very strange attempts to spell Indian names by phonetics.
>   Anyway, I found your entry very enlightening and will remember to 
keep it in mind as I look over the records from now on.  If you will 
tell me where you have seen this practice, it would help me very much.
> 
> Jose L. Macias
> usa20@e... 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: aajay1073 
>   To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 3:12 PM
>   Subject: [ranchos] Re: Naming Patterns
> 
> 
>   I read somewhere, {and I can't remember where, but I tried 
looking 
>   for my source for this information}, that if the wife's family 
was of 

thanks for your input.

aajay1073 wrote:

I read somewhere, {and I can't remember where, but I tried looking
for my source for this information},

one day when you unexpectedly come across it please do send it in to the
group, thanks.

that if the wife's family was of
a higher status or surname was 'better' {in using measurements during
that time period}, then the males in the family took the wife's
surname which would then pass to their children. And the females
took the husband's surname which would get passed to their children
as the secondary surname.

In terms of mispellings or spelling variations. Again, I read
somewhere, the person recording the name tended to be more educated
then the general people. Therefore, it would have been 'beneath' him
to ask how to spell a name to someone who was less educated them he.
The ability to read and write was not wide spread, but more than
likely even those people who did know how to write, were probably
still not asked the correct way to spell their name.

this sounds right. . .but now I have a specific question.

Has anyone ever seen an Variant spellings of Maldonado? If you have
what might those variants be? I eagerly await anyones reply to this as
I'm in the middle of another possible confusion. . .believe me it
doesn't take much to accomplish this.

thanks again,

joseph

just me two cents...

Angie

I read somewhere, {and I can't remember where, but I tried looking 
for my source for this information}, that if the wife's family was of 
a higher status or surname was 'better' {in using measurements during 
that time period}, then the males in the family took the wife's 
surname which would then pass to their children.  And the females 
took the husband's surname which would get passed to their children 
as the secondary surname.

In terms of mispellings or spelling variations.  Again, I read 
somewhere, the person recording the name tended to be more educated 
then the general people. Therefore, it would have been 'beneath' him 
to ask how to spell a name to someone who was less educated them he.  
The ability to read and write was not wide spread, but more than 
likely even those people who did know how to write, were probably 
still not asked the correct way to spell their name.

just me two cents...

Angie

Pacorro73@... wrote:

face="arial,helvetica">
style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);" size="1" family="SANSSERIF"
face="Arial" lang="0">


style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);" size="2" family="SANSSERIF"
face="Arial" lang="0">Notice that #6, Gerónima de Liébana was the namesake
of her mother, Gerónima de Liébana.
style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);" size="1" family="SANSSERIF"
face="Arial" lang="0">



By the way the surname, Liébana, is a toponymic one.  Toponymic surnames
refer to some place, geographic entity or feature, city, town, or region. 
In this case, La Liébana a region in the Province of Cantabria, directly
north of Palencia and which surrounds the present day town of Potes, in Cantabria,
where this family came from originally.



Other toponymic surnames include, León, Avila, Palencia, Madrid, Sevilla,
Badajoz, Oñate, Ayala, Orozco, Trujillo, Zamora, Burgos, Códoba, Garnica,
Soria, etc, which are towns and cities in Spain.  Others include Peña (a
massive boulder), Río/Ríos (river/rivers), Barranca/Barranco (cliff), Vega
(flat lowland), Sierra (mountain range), Huerta (field), etc, etc.  But I
digress.

yes you did, but a wonderful digress-ion it was!!

Dear Ranchos Group:



Hello everyone.  In response to Joseph's quite valid question, or rather comment, of course I've seen both men and women use either part or all of their mother's surname, which could have also been her mother's surname.  This was far more common for women to do, by far, but there are cases where I've seen men do this also.



I just found a Juan Camarena in Ayo el Chico, Jalisco, whose father was Antonio Rodríguez and his mother was Antonia Camarena.  Juan Camarena was married to Josepha Joaquina Tello de Orozco (aka Josefa Joaquina de Orozco) under the name "Juan Rodríguez," but proceeded to call himself Juan Camarena everytime he baptized a child.  By the time of his grandchildren, he was always refered to as Juan Camarena.  This complicated things because for the longest time I was looking for a Juan Camarena.  Boy was I surprised to find out he was really a Rodríguez!!  Who really knows why Juan decided to use his mother's name, but it might be some psychological trauma or some father son conflict, but what do I know.  I only know that I know nothing, as Socrates said.



Another example, a married couple, Dr. Gerónimo de Orozco, Governor of Nueva Galicia and President of the Real Audiencia, and his wife Beatriz Tello de Sandoval, were my ancestors, parents of my "rebisabuelo" Francisco Tello de Orozco, born ca 1558.  In fact, he would also go by the name "Francisco Tello," obviously opting to use his mother's surname.  I have never seen him mentioned as Francisco de Orozco.  Francisco's descendants would keep carrying and passing on the surname Tello de Orozco.

Have you all experienced individuals using their maternal grandmothers
name for some records?

I have two instances when in one case the man was named with a surname
that could only be explained if he was using his maternal grandmothers
last name. (note this one example was the only time I saw this for a
man). I also have a marriage record for a woman that was using her
maternal grandmothers last name.

Have you all seen this before? It is getting to be pretty common for me
to find records with individuals using their mothers name rather than
their fathers name but this use of the maternal grandmothers last name
has me questioning the records I'm looking at.

thanks,

joseph

Very nicely done. I saw some things here especially on the Military that
might very well help me later. Lot of good stuff. thanks so much I very
much appreciate your contribution to the group.

I'd like to make a proposal to the group. . .There are roughly 50 of us
now in the group. If each one of us were to contribute one such article
like Rosalinda's that is infopacked but to the point we'd have one
message per week to consider for the advancement of our genealogy.
Consider it a challenge. One time per year is not asking very much.

thanks Rosalinda,

joseph


rosa9972 wrote:

Hi group--

For those of you just beginning your genealogy research (or anyone
else interested in Mexican genealogy), I found some links from
www.familysearch.org that may be helpful. Look under the Files
section, in the Aah-ther Stuff file, under Familysearch Links.

I hope this helps.

Rosalinda



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
ranchos-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi group--

For those of you just beginning your genealogy research (or anyone 
else interested in Mexican genealogy), I found some links from 
www.familysearch.org that may be helpful.  Look under the Files 
section, in the Aah-ther Stuff file, under Familysearch Links.

I hope this helps.

Rosalinda

Welcome Arnoldo!

My grandma is from Totatiche, as well as her ancestors.  I have 
quite a bit of info, so maybe we can share notes to see if we're 
cousins.  Many people from Totatiche are related to each other.  
Once you post your genealogy, I'll be able to see if you're 
related.  Check out my files too!  Stella and I are cousins, and we 
met through this group!

Rosalinda 


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Arnoldo Garcia <hdeconejos@y...> 
wrote:
> Hello,
>  Just joined this group.  Looking forward in meeting with many of 
you.
>  My Fathers family is from Villa Guerrero ( Juanacatic ) Jalisco, 
and my 
>  Mothers family is from Totatiche, Jalisco.
>  I have just begun but have do have some information.
>  Thanks, for letting me in this group.
>  Arnoldo 
> 
> 

Arnoldo,

my family to is from Totatiche, and there are some cousins floating around here in this group too!! So we may have the same family



Stella

This too shall pass.............

I wish I could go. . .if any of you all can possibly make it to this meeting
please take detailed notes and give us a report. thanks,



joseph



-------- Original Message --------

Hi Alicia,

My family is originally from el Remolino and
Guadalajarita, Zacatecas.  I have numerous relatives
in Contitlan and Moyahua, as well.  My paternal
grandmother was a Carrillo from her mother's side.  

Yes, it is true.....There is quite a bit of
intermarrying that has gone on, and continues to go
on.  That is the beauty of family genealogy, you can
actually see who married who and when.  That also
explains why many times you can tell what region of
mexico someone is from.  One good example - do you
know any Gonzalez?  Usually they are of light
complexion and have a distinguished looking nose.  AND
many times they are from Jalisco. 

I currently live near Fresno, CA.  I have lived here
my entire life.  I have a brother and sister that live
in San Jose and 2 brothers that live in Fremont.

     -Esther


--- Alicia Carrillo <alliecar@...> wrote:
> Hello Esther Valencia,
>  
> This is Alicia Carrillo and I have barely begun the
> search for my family roots and history.
>  
> Where do you live now and is it the same place where
> you grew up. 
>  
> All of my life I have heard of relatives who were
> cousins and married to cousins. I always thought
> that our family was weird and that our family was
> the only I'd ever heard of that had inter-married
> with other family members.
>  
> It's such a relief to know that we are not as weird
> and unique as I thought we were.
>  
> I'm from Tlachichila Zacatecas about a half hour
> from Nochistlan but have lived in San Jose,
> California since I was two.
>  
> Hope to hear from you soon,
>  
> Alicia Avelar de Carrillo
> 
> esther1998 <esther1998@...> wrote:
> Hi, my name is Esther Valencia - maiden name
> REYNOSO.  I have been
> researching my family genealogy for approximately 3
> years now.  
> 
> My family originates in the area of Juchipila,
> Zacatecas.  I have had
> a wonderful time searching for and discovering my
> ancestry.  I am
> slowly discovering that many people I grew up with
> are actually
> distant relatives.  I have learned so much about my
> origin and am very
> excited about preserving this for my future
> grandchildren and
> grandchildrens-children.  
> 
> I have submitted my genealogy to Joseph.  I am
> looking forward to
> working with all of you!!
> Sincerely,
>      -Esther Valencia
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Yep theres a lot of that going on.....my great grandmother and her husband where 2nd cousins......

Stella

This too shall pass.............

What would be weird is if your family DIDN'T have cousins that married one
another. My Grandfather Julio was 3rd cousin to my Grandmother Virginia.
It looked for awhile there that they were 2nd cousins until I discovered
that in 1793 two twin boys were born and the parents (Vicente Diaz and Hipolita
Rivas) were so thrilled with them that they named both of them the same name,
Jose Tadeo Diaz. One of the Tadeo's when on to be the bisabuelo to my grandfather
and the other the bisabuelo to my grandmother.



yup Genealogy is sooo coool.



joseph





Alicia Carrillo wrote:

Hi, my name is Esther Valencia - maiden name REYNOSO.  I have been
researching my family genealogy for approximately 3 years now. 

My family originates in the area of Juchipila, Zacatecas.  I have had
a wonderful time searching for and discovering my ancestry.  I am
slowly discovering that many people I grew up with are actually
distant relatives.  I have learned so much about my origin and am very
excited about preserving this for my future grandchildren and
grandchildrens-children. 

I have submitted my genealogy to Joseph.  I am looking forward to
working with all of you!!
Sincerely,
     -Esther Valencia



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
ranchos-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Hi, my name is Esther Valencia - maiden name REYNOSO.  I have been
researching my family genealogy for approximately 3 years now.  

My family originates in the area of Juchipila, Zacatecas.  I have had
a wonderful time searching for and discovering my ancestry.  I am
slowly discovering that many people I grew up with are actually
distant relatives.  I have learned so much about my origin and am very
excited about preserving this for my future grandchildren and
grandchildrens-children.  

I have submitted my genealogy to Joseph.  I am looking forward to
working with all of you!!
Sincerely,
     -Esther Valencia

Rosalinda,


		I have run across the Cordova last name. What time frame are you looking
at here? Let me know.


								Arturo Romero

> [Original Message]
> From: <ranchos@yahoogroups.com>
> To: <ranchos@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 6/14/2003 6:23:45 AM
> Subject: [ranchos] Digest Number 96
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> ranchos-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are 2 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Autl=E1n de la Grana, Jalisco
>            From: Joseph Puentes <makas@...>
>       2. An Update: The Sandoval Family of Huejucar
>            From: "rosa9972" <lareina2@...>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:01:03 -0400
>    From: Joseph Puentes <makas@...>
> Subject: Autl=E1n de la Grana, Jalisco
>
>
> thought this would be of interest if anyone is doing research in this
area:
>
> Record # 51 (Select)    Title:     Cr=F3nicas de Autl=E1n de la Grana,=20
> Jalisco / Ernesto Medina Lima.      Portion of title :    Autl=E1n de
la=20
> Grana, Jalisco     Author:     Medina Lima, Ernesto, 1917-=20=20=20=20
> Published:     Guadalajara, Jalisco, M=E9xico : Universidad de=20
> Guadalajara, 2000.
> Holdings:
> Perkins --- 972.35 M491, C947, 2000=20
> c.1  Checked Out   Due: 5/31/2004=20=20
> Edition: 1. ed.
> Subject Heading(s) : Autl=E1n de Navarro (Mexico)--History.
> Autl=E1n de Navarro (M=E9xico) Historia.
> Material: 283 p. ; 22 cm.
> Notes : Includes bibliographical references.
> LCCN: 2001328553 OCLC: 46319794 System ID No: BKU-6894
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 19:44:57 -0000
>    From: "rosa9972" <lareina2@...>
> Subject: An Update: The Sandoval Family of Huejucar
>
> Hi group!!
>
> I just viewed the baptismal record of my great grandpa, Francisco=20
> SANDOVAL, who was baptised in Totatiche.  I had been looking for his=20

The question from Rosalinda made me smile: Am I my own 
cousin? 

Here in New Mexico we are!!  I am my 4th cousin, and 6th cousin 
once removed.  So my Mom is my cousin.

Gloria