Dr.mt

Ramirez and Bivanco families Ayo el Chico about 1700's

Published by jesus.ramirez –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello all,
I'm trying to trace my Ramirez and Bivanco families and hope someone knows something that could help me.
I know that there is a place named 'La Troxe" where I believe they lived.

Comentarios

Comentario

I agree with Danny. In fact there were multiple ranchos named Troje or Troja, which means granary. There was one in Arandas and another in Ayo el Chico called la Troja Quemada.

Joseph de Parga y Galloso / Luisa de Arteaga

Published by Jose_Humberto_Suarez –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hola a todos:

Comentarios

Comentario

Yo también llego hasta Luisa de Artezga pero no he encontrado ningún acta de nacimiento o matrimonio de ella. Soy descendiente de Parga y Galloso (sobrina de Eliseo MB). Si encuentro algo me pondré en contacto!

Comentario

Your Joseph de Parga y Gayoso would probly be the son of the captain Josph de Parga y Gayoso that was married to Catalina de Ansiso. He's probly the same Captain Joseph de Parga y Gayoso that was also married to Josefa Contreras.

Danny C. Alonso

Does anyone know what is happening to guadalajaradispensas.com?

Published by Ruben_Hdez –
Foros
History, Culture and General Discussion

Hello all NR members,

Comentarios

Comentario

UPDATE: For your information-- The guadalajaradispensas.com website is still down at this time. I have been working with the owner to have it reinstated, but we hit a snag, so it may take some time to work again. The owner assures me that the data itself is safe. I'll announce when it's available.

For those of you offering donations: let me talk to her about it. This time, I paid for it in the interests of helping the genealogical community. It wouldn't hurt my feelings to have some of it reimbursed, but I'll talk to the owner about this offer.

Thanks for being patient!

R

Comentario

I would also add to this comment a big thank you and also to ask if you
need funding to keep it going. It's only fair that we could contribute to
keep it going indefinitely.
If we can contribute, just let us know what's needed and I for one am
willing to make a contribution.

Alicia

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:49 AM, wrote:

> God bless you Rosalinda! It'd be fantastic to have the site restored as it
> is
> a formidable genealogical research resource. Many thanks to C. C. and to
> each
> and every one who collaborated to build this incredible useful tool. Rubén
>

Comentario

I agree with Alicia. After all your work, its the least we can do. I'm
willing to contribute.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Alicia Carrillo
wrote:

> I would also add to this comment a big thank you and also to ask if you
> need funding to keep it going. It's only fair that we could contribute to
> keep it going indefinitely.
> If we can contribute, just let us know what's needed and I for one am
> willing to make a contribution.
>
> Alicia
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:49 AM, wrote:
>
> > God bless you Rosalinda! It'd be fantastic to have the site restored as
> it
> > is
> > a formidable genealogical research resource. Many thanks to C. C. and to
> > each
> > and every one who collaborated to build this incredible useful tool.
> Rubén
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos General Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > general(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org

Comentario

Alicia, you're right and we should all look at it as if it's our own personal CROWDFUNDING . If we all pitch in just a few bucks or whatever you can then we shall overcome !

Get Outlook for iOS
________________________________
From: General on behalf of Raquel Ruiz
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 11:38:17 PM
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] guadalajaradispensas.com

I agree with Alicia. After all your work, its the least we can do. I'm
willing to contribute.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Alicia Carrillo
wrote:

> I would also add to this comment a big thank you and also to ask if you
> need funding to keep it going. It's only fair that we could contribute to
> keep it going indefinitely.
> If we can contribute, just let us know what's needed and I for one am
> willing to make a contribution.
>
> Alicia
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:49 AM, wrote:
>
> > God bless you Rosalinda! It'd be fantastic to have the site restored as
> it
> > is
> > a

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

I know it's still down. I have to wait for the owner to be available, and she won't be for at least another week. Once she can communicate more easily and we can get the site running, I'll let the group know. We'll get there.

Comentario

To Claudia Casillas and other important owners/contributors at Guadalajara
Dispensas, I more than gladly offer to host the site for FREE in a web
hosting server that I rent. I have offered this in the past but never
received an answer. My offer still stands and always will.

Rick Rodriguez

-----Original Message-----
From: General [mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf
Of makas@nc.rr.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 2:50 PM
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] guadalajaradispensas.com

I'm willing to contribute. I hope others see the value of the fabulous
information on this website. Joseph Puentes

Comentario

I'm willing too !

Get Outlook for iOS
________________________________
From: General on behalf of M Vallazza
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 9:21:23 PM
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] guadalajaradispensas.com

I am willing to contribute as well.

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 12, 2017, at 16:50, makas@nc.rr.com wrote:
>
> I'm willing to contribute. I hope others see the value of the fabulous
> information on this website. Joseph Puentes
>

Comentario

Looks like the domain for http://www.guadalajaradispensas.com has expired:

Domain Name: GUADALAJARADISPENSAS.COM
Registry Domain ID: 1674827844_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.godaddy.com
Registrar URL: http://www.godaddy.com
Updated Date: 2015-09-01T12:30:42Z
Creation Date: 2011-09-01T04:55:04Z
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2017-09-01T04:55:04Z
Registrar: GoDaddy.com, LLC
Registrar IANA ID: 146

However, if I remember correctly, wasn't the content hosted on a blog? If so, if anyone has a direct link to the blog, either Katy and/or myself can host a link for the www.guadalajaradispensas.com blog on our sites...

Daniel Serna Valencia

Comentario

Erlinda,

This URL used to be the site where quite a few LDS films with marriage dispensations indexed by generous volunteers were shared.

Please visit the link Katy Brecht Quesada is kindly providing.

informaciones matrimoniales aguascalientes asuncion de maria 1723-24

Published by Denise_Hernand… –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hi

Anyone know where the informaciones matrimoniales for 1724 (oct 1723-jan 1725), Aguascalientes, Asuncion de Maria, can be found?

Comentarios

Comentario

Denise

I created an index of Aguascalientes matrimonial investigations which covers them through about 1750.

They are often not in chronological order. I do not recall if this specific period was there, but you can down load my indexes from the reference materials area of NR. These are searchable PDF files.

There are many missing investigations.

Family search reposted the films after I posted my first group, so the image numbers are not correct with the current postings.

George

Comentario

No se puede acceder a los indices en la sida espanol - pero se puede así, en la sida inglés:

Go to:

Files (next to "Albums" and "Archives" tabs)

select Reference Materiales

select Aguascalientes Matrimonial Investigations.

Hope this helps!

Regards
Denise

Nicolas Ximenes and Maria Gomes in Nochistlan/Mexticacan

Published by rmfpdx –
Foros
Genealogy Research

I am researching my direct lineage thru Manuel de los Santos Ximenes, born around 1722 in Nochistlan/Mexticacan (not sure which for sure).

Comentarios

Comentario

I have Nicolas Jimenez as the son of Juan Medina Jimenez and Isabel Quesada Delgadillo.

Nochistlán. Zac. Abril 20 de 1735. Exp 82 - Dispensa de cuarto con tercero grado de consanguinidad - Juan Miguel Jiménez, español de 20 años de edad, originario y vecino de este feligresia de Nochistlan, hijo legitimo de Nicolás Jiménez y de María Gómez: tengo tratado matrimonio con Jacinta Iñiguez, española de 18 años de edad, originaria y vecina de esta feligresia, hija legitima de Lorenzo Iñiguez y de Leonor Yáñez, vecinos de este Curato. Declaración del pretenso: Por ser la dicha pretensa nieta de Gonzalo Yáñez y Yo bisnieto de
Mariana Yáñez, hermanos, Mariana tuvo por hijo a Juan Jiménez, Juan tuvo por
hijo a Nicolás Jiménez, Nicolás tuvo por hijo a Juan Miguel Jiménez el que
pretensa el escrito, pretenso. Gonzalo Yáñez tuvo por hija a Leonor Yáñez.
Leonor tuvo por hija a Jacinta Iñiguez pretensa. Se otorgó la dispensa en la
Ciudad de Guadalajara en 28 de abril de 1735. 9 fojas.

Additional

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

You have blown my mind - thank you so much! What a wonderful act of kindness to help me find these people. I haven't even yet checked the links yet but will do so tomorrow. ¡Muchísimas gracias!

Comentario

I have a tree for Nicolas, 100% of his grandparents. You tie into Yanez del Monte, Benavides, Rodriguez de la Mora, Delgadillo, Quesada, Morones, and Caravajal lines present in Nochistlan post 1600.

Comentario

Descúlpenme, por favor, que se me olvidó escribir mi mensaje también en español. Si alguien lo necesita en castellano, estoy dispuesto a proveerlo.

Ayo El Chico, Jalisco

Published by alicebb –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello Everyone,
Could someone please tell me if late 1700's church records for Ayo El Chico, Jalisco are available online?  I've been unable to locate them using that name.   Thanks so much for yo

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi, Alice,

that place is now called Ayotlan.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:23:49 -0700
> From: alicebb@att.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayo El Chico, Jalisco
>
> Hello Everyone,
> Could someone please tell me if late 1700's church records for Ayo El Chico, Jalisco are available online? I've been unable to locate them using that name. Thanks so much for your help. Alice

Comentario

Alice, The Bonita Library where I work has many films from Ayo El Chico.
If you have some names and birth dates I could look them up tomorrow.
-Esther Jordan Lopez

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:39 PM, Emilie Garcia
wrote:

>
> Hi, Alice,
>
> that place is now called Ayotlan.
>
> Emilie
> Port Orchard, WA
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:23:49 -0700
> > From: alicebb@att.net
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayo El Chico, Jalisco
> >
> > Hello Everyone,
> > Could someone please tell me if late 1700's church records for Ayo El
> Chico, Jalisco are available online? I've been unable to locate them using
> that name. Thanks so much for your help. Alice
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>

Comentario

 Esther, thank you so much.  I appreciate the offer, but I don't even have a definite date or place for the marriage of Juan Manuel Arrambide and Ynes Rosalia Sandoval.  I'm searching for Juan Manuel's parents to see if he's a brother or son of Martin Arrambide.The earliest of five children that I have found was Ma Josefa de Jesus, born in 1777 to the last Jose Bartolome de Jesus in 1788 all born in Ayo El Chico.  Thanks to Emilie's help, I've found all five baptismal entries, but no grandparents are named.  So now trying to come up with Plan B.  Thank you again,  Alice      

--- On Wed, 8/1/12, Esther Jordan wrote:

From: Esther Jordan
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayo El Chico, Jalisco
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2012, 2:58 AM

Alice,  The Bonita Library where I work has many films from Ayo El Chico.
If you have some names and birth dates I could look them up tomorrow.
-Esther Jordan Lopez

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:39 PM, Emilie Garcia
wrote

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Plan c is to look at tepatitlan as I found some Ayo el Chico ancestors would go to tepatitlan for some baptisms and marriages
R A Ricci

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 31, 2012, at 11:42 PM, Alice Blake wrote:

> Esther, thank you so much. I appreciate the offer, but I don't even have a definite date or place for the marriage of Juan Manuel Arrambide and Ynes Rosalia Sandoval. I'm searching for Juan Manuel's parents to see if he's a brother or son of Martin Arrambide.The earliest of five children that I have found was Ma Josefa de Jesus, born in 1777 to the last Jose Bartolome de Jesus in 1788 all born in Ayo El Chico. Thanks to Emilie's help, I've found all five baptismal entries, but no grandparents are named. So now trying to come up with Plan B. Thank you again, Alice
>
> --- On Wed, 8/1/12, Esther Jordan wrote:
>
>
> From: Esther Jordan
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayo El Chico, Jalisco
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2012, 2

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Thanks so much!  Always good to have a Plan C!    I'll check it out.    Alice

--- On Fri, 8/3/12, mygenes2000@yahoo.com wrote:

From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayo El Chico, Jalisco
To: "research@nuestrosranchos.org"
Date: Friday, August 3, 2012, 8:13 AM

Plan c is to look at tepatitlan as I found some Ayo el Chico ancestors would go to tepatitlan for some baptisms and  marriages
R A Ricci

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 31, 2012, at 11:42 PM, Alice Blake wrote:

>  Esther, thank you so much.  I appreciate the offer, but I don't even have a definite date or place for the marriage of Juan Manuel Arrambide and Ynes Rosalia Sandoval.  I'm searching for Juan Manuel's parents to see if he's a brother or son of Martin Arrambide.The earliest of five children that I have found was Ma Josefa de Jesus, born in 1777 to the last Jose Bartolome de Jesus in 1788 all born in Ayo El Chico.  Thanks to Emilie's help, I've found all five baptismal entries, but no

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Ester Jordan Lopez: Do you still have access to these films? There is a Manuela De Herrera Navarro born in 1685 to the parents of Diego de Herrera and Francisca Navarro. I am trying to find records that may tell me when and where Diego and Francisca were born.

By the way, it does appear they moved to Zacatecas (Pinos), as their other child Sebastian Herrera Navarro was born 5 years later.

In advance, thank you for any assistance you can offer.

Comentario

Thank you so much, Emilie.  I'll get to work.  Alice

--- On Tue, 7/31/12, Emilie Garcia wrote:

From: Emilie Garcia
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayo El Chico, Jalisco
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2012, 9:39 PM

Hi, Alice,

that place is now called Ayotlan.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:23:49 -0700
> From: alicebb@att.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayo El Chico, Jalisco
>
> Hello Everyone,
> Could someone please tell me if late 1700's church records for Ayo El Chico, Jalisco are available online?  I've been unable to locate them using that name.   Thanks so much for your help.   Alice

Batres in Zacatecas/Aguascalientes

Published by rmfpdx –
Foros
Announcements and Events

Hola a todos. I am researching the Batres line in Zacatecas/Aguascalientes. This was my paternal grandfather’s mother’s line. I have only been able to go back to late 1800s using familysearch.org.

Comentarios

Comentario

This should be in research not announcements so everyone sees it. but who the couple that you're looking for?

Danny C. Alonso

petronila de moctezuma y martin navarro

Published by GARY –
Foros
Genealogy Research

hola
un cordial saludos
tengo algunas preguntas:

tengo entendido que ana franca gabay de moctezuma esposa de lope ruiz de esparza

Comentarios

Comentario

Dear Enrique,

You are correct that it is the burial record of Ana Fancisca De Gabai, but you are incorrect as to what it says about her husband. This is the burial record of Ana Francisca de Gabai, wife of Lope Ruiz de Esparza.

Thanks for the image,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Edgar Olguin Diaz
buenos dias miembros NR
en alguna ocacion me encontrer que un miembro de NR
PUBLICO UNA TRANSCRIPCION DE UN DOCUMENTO DONDE MENCIONAN
LAS CARACTERISTICAS DE DON LOPE RUIZ DE ESPARZA COMO ERA EN SU FISICO Y LUGAR DE ORIGEN Y RESIDENCIA
COMO PUEDO ENCONTAR ESTE DOCUMENTO ?
SE LO AGRADEZCERIA MUCHO MIEMBROS NR
SALUDOS

Comentario

El documento esta en la bibliotheca se la Iglesia de los Mormones en West Los Angeles, Santa Monica Blvd. yo vi el documento hace UNOs Anos. El documento dice que ya tenia dos Anos en lo que ahora nombramos Mexico. El documento tambien decia que estaba casasdo con la nieta (bisnieta?) de Moctezuma.

R.A.Ricci

Comentario

Edgar Olguin Diaz

R.A. Ricci por casualidad no tienes en archivo el documento ?

o la pagina donde se encuentre digitalizado ese documento ?

o si me podrias orientar como encontrarla

Comentario

Yo vi el documento el ultimo dia antes de que cerraron la bibliotheca por dos anos. Cuando abrieron la bibliotheca de nuevo lo pusieron en otro lugar y ya no he podido encontrarlo.

R.A.Ricci

Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Vie, 2014-01-03 15:29 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

El senor Guillermo Teresa de Tovar tenia una copia de este documento y el escribio palabra por palabra la informacion del documento. Este documento quita toda la duda sobre su ascendencia.

Comentario

¿Pero de cual documento hablas? Cual es la fuente del documento? En donde
escribió el senor Guillermo Teresa de Tovar palabra por palabra la
informacion del documento?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Petronila sotelo mendoza y Martin de
Gabai
Enviado por R.A.Ricci el Vie, 2014-01-03 17:29.

El senor Guillermo Teresa de Tovar tenia una copia de este documento y el
escribio palabra por palabra la informacion del documento. Este documento
quita toda la duda sobre su ascendencia.

Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Wishing you all a very happy New Year I proceed to repeat the question that all of the descendants of Petronila are wondering : What type of document is that one that Rick saw and that our admired Guillermo had? I mean It would be wonderful to know where it is or any copy of it, but at least what kind of document it is, was it a legal document or a religious one? , perhaps a will or a received grant or encomienda ?

Maybe as it has not been published yet there is an understandable secrecy about the source or location of THE DOCUMENT, but could some one tell us at least what was the subject of it ?.

I´ve seen in PARES that in 1574 Don Fernado Sotelo receives permission to return to New Spain and I´m supposing that he went to Spain with his father Don Diego Arias Sotelo when the latter was ousted as acused in the "conspiración de los encomenderos"

About him the afore mentioned bokk "Familias y Casas de la Vieja Valladolid" says :

"Fue Don Fernando Arias Sotelo y

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Comentario

Carlos Peredo

It has been researched that Don Fernando Arias Sotelo Moctezuma had ten children but the book I mention in the last post has the names of only 8:

Diego - canónigo
Juan - married twice
Fernando -unknown marital status
Leonor - nun
Ana - nun
Catalina - nun
Gerónima - nun
Antonio - Priest and Caballero de Santiago in 1637 (PARES)

But, as has been established in this forum, the ninth children of Don Fernando was:

Francisca Sotelo who died in Morelia in 1632

And I think there´s a strong chance that the tenth children was :

Francisco Sotelo the one that marries Clara de Jaén around 1632 probably in Aguascalientes.

One fact -besides the last name and the chronology that fits well - is that of their known six children, two married into descendants of Petronila de Moctezuma; and two more were baptized by descendants of the same Petronila de Moctezuma.

Its imposible to deny that there was a close relationship betwen this Francisco Sotelo and the children of Lope Ruíz de

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Thanks Carlos, there is some new information for me in your post!

By the way, Lorenzo Sotelo and Maria Montesuma (as she is named in the marriage records) had a brother named Diego:

"México, bautismos, 1560-1950," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N5LJ-X2D : accessed 07 Jan 2014), Diego Sotelo, 31 Aug 1624.

I have seen the actual record, but now I cannot find the link, it's on my other computer...will post it as soon as I can...

Here is the link to the image for Maria Montesuma's marriage to Bernave Bocanegra y Orozco, for those who might be interested:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18746-47471-56?cc=1883388&wc…

Its image 35 of Matrimonios, 1623-42, Sagragrio Metropolitano, Morelia, Michoacan, Mexico, registros parroquiales y diocesanos 1555-1996.

Regards
Denise

Comentario

Hi Carlos
Here are the links to the images for both Diego and Lorenzo, and the citations:

Baptism record of Diego Sotelo, son of don Juan Sotelo Motecsuma and dona Maria Hurtado de Mendoza:

"México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1555-1996," images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18746-48085-54?cc=1883388&wc… : accessed 07 Jan 2014), Morelia > Sagrario Metropolitano > Matrimonios 1623-1642 > image 298 of 442

LINK TO IMAGE 298:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18746-48085-54?cc=1883388&wc…
__________________

Baptism record of Lorenzo Sotelo, son of don Juan Sotelo Motecsuma and dona Maria Hurtado de Mendoza:

"México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1555-1996," images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18746-47739-49?cc=1883388&wc… : accessed 07 Jan 2014), Morelia > Sagrario Metropolitano > Matrimonios 1623-1642 > image 373 of 442

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Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Hi Denise,

You are right, Juan Sotelo and María Hurtado had three children......I found that record some time ago, but I foolishly didn´t mention because it doesn´t fit with previous info ...You know, in his last will Don Juan states that he had two children from his first marriage and five from his second.

Now I wonder : Did he mean that from his first marriage only two survived? Now I just recalled that El Padre Ibarrola, talking about the Haciendas of the Sotelos in Tarimbaro near Morelia, he says that when Lorenzo Arias Sotelo died with no children, the Hacienda Santa María went to his cousins the Ruíz de Chávez descendants of the last King of Michoacán (The last "Cazonci"); logically the heir of the Hacienda should have been Diego who was born before Lorenzo, the only reason that Diego didn´t inherit should be because he died young.

Regarding his second marriage to Juana Ruíz, I´m guessing that she can be a Ruíz de Esparza or a Ruíz de Chávez, maybe that will

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Comentario

Carlos

Who are the children of Juan Sotelo and Juana Ruiz?

In the Aguascalientes baptismal record you are referring to, the record reads "Joan mestizo" and "hijo de Joan Sotelo y Jua de Sotelo"; with the padrinos Francisco Sotelo and his wife, as you noted.

I wonder if this is a different family than the Sotelo's we are interest in? Or, is there evidence to suggest that Juana Ruiz and Juana de Sotelo are the same person?

This is the url for the image https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-52628-11?cc=1502404&…

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Comentario

Another problem...this time about Cristobal Valderrama Sotelo

Found in PARES:

Expediente de concesión de licencia para pasar a México a favor de Cristóbal de Valderrama Sotelo, natural de México, hijo de Francisco Arias Sotelo (residente en México) con un criado.

Título de la unidad: "Cristóbal de Valderrama Sotelo"
Archivo: Archivo General de Indias
Signatura: INDIFERENTE,2060,N.88

The document is dated 1582. Can this be a mistake that Francisco is named as his father???

Regards
Denise

Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Hello Denise

I´ve tried to read the document you mention and so far I have not seen the name Francisco as the father of Cristóbal de Valderrama.

What I understand so far is that Cristóbal is requesting permission to return to Indias, he declares that he was born in Indias and that he´s been living in Spain for 11 or 12 years more or less and that as he requested the permission he was asked to show the original permission with which he went to Spain; he declares that he lost it and his lawyer proposes to present witnesses which is accepted.

All three witnesses declare that they know him for 11-12 years and that they know he arrived with a "Licencia" of the Virrey Enríquez; permission is granted.....then in page 9 he complains that the "Secretary" doesn´t want to extend the permission and he then insists that it is urgent for him to get it (here comes an important fact)because hi is in material necesity : "...por no tener de que poderme sustentarme (sic) en estos reynos

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Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Very interesting document, page 11 is the actual letter that the Father of Cristóbal and Fernando writes responding on march 4th 1582 to one from Cristóbal dated feb 24th 1582.

the father (whose signature reads Arias Sotelo but the letters of the name are difficult to figure) is suprised to know that the secretary Ledesma refuses to give the laready granted permission and he writes : " ...certifico os de mi parte no se os haia contradición ni escrito sobre tal, después que ahora benistes de Ytalia y si antes la hice que pasasedes a Ytalia ya sabeis vos la razón que tuve. Y ahora os digo como os tengo escrito, que vistos mis trabajos y necesidades y no poderos dar la mano como padre, holgaría que pasasedes y pidiesedes a vuestro hermano lo que es vuestro y no os dé cuidado el venirme a ver, que yo estoy tal que recibiré pena de veros y hogaré de que no vengais y Dios nuestro señor os tenga de su mano para que le sirvais...de avisarme si os despachais de ahí y recorre

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Carlos Peredo

In PARES they list a document where there´s a "...Real Provisión] a Don Francisco de las Casas, dándole título de regidor de México, en lugar y por renuncia de Diego Arias Sotelo. (Extracto)"

So probably finally Don Diego was "forgiven" and allowed to return to Mexico where it seems had the title of regidor.

Mysteries abound regarding these Sotelos because also in PARES in 1573 twon men are sent to Indias to take charge of the "Hacienda" (The Business) of Don Diego Arias Sotelo, but in the same year there´s a permission to a Diego Arias Sotelo to return to Mexico. This last one I guess was stoped; and then in 1574 Diego´s son Fernando is allowed to go to Mexico.

Regards

Carlos

Comentario

Oh...en lugar y por renuncia...i thought it meant that diego finally lost his position, that it was handed over to this don francisco de las casas?but my spanish is limited....
I saw these documents last night, and wondered how they could have been overlooked. They were easy enough to find with a buscada sencilla.

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Carlos Peredo

I´m trying to read the file when the title of Regidor de la Cd. de México is given to Don Diego in 1559 and in page 4 his parents are mentioned : Capitán Antonio de Sotelo y Uzenda Núñez

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Carlos Peredo

In the same file the first witness declares that "..que conoció a Diego Arias ..hace unos veinte años y que el dicho Diego tenía más de 10 años ...que recuerda que se fué a Nueva España con el Virrey Luis de Velasco porque este testigo le vió aparejar su hida...que después allá ha vivido y vive en la Cd. de México e allí es casado e tiene su mujer e hijos...porque a sus hermanos en persona que han venido de aquellas partes les ha oído decir como dicho Diego Arias es casado en la Cd. de Mexico e reside ahí con su mujer ....QUE ENVIUDÓ UNA VEZ E SE VOLVIÓ A CASAR E QUE ESTO ES COSA MUY PÚBLICA..."

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Hi Carlos
What you found is very interesting because I had read in Andariegos y Pobladores (Jose Miguel Romero de Solis, 2001) in the entry for Fernando Sotelo Montezuma that his mother Leonor died in 1562. But since the text you cite about the regidor-ship (?) of Diego Arias Sotelo is from earlier than that, where his second marriage is mentioned, I am a Little confused...
If Leonor died before 1559, then Petronila was born before 1559...until now, all I knew was that she could have been born as late as 1662, like if her mother died in connection with her birth. Yet another mystery!

The other issue I am trying to resolve is the name of the second wife. I have seen it as Maria Tramuel in print (Moctezuma's Children, by Donald Chipman) and as Maria Manuela in a post here in NR...Maybe someone in this forum has the answer (a primary source) to this one?

Regards
Denise

Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Hello Denise

Precisely in the book about the "conspiracy of the encomenderos" in google books, Diego Arias Sotelo declares that he married twice and about his second wife he says that her name is Maria Manuel and that she is the sister of the "Tesorero" Don Fernando de Portugal; that explains the record you found in PARES about María Manuel´s son returning to Mexico

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Hi Carlos

It gets couriouser og courioser...

Below is a copy of the post I made the thread I started about Diego de Portugal:

I have seen the image of the original document, and even though I did not understand much of it, I did see the name Diego Arias de Sotelo, and the name Maria Manuel (not Manuela) in the document.

Also, I found a book scanned in about the noble families of Spain, from 1622, with details of the Torres y Portugal Family. It names Maria a sister of Ferdinand de Portugal, tesorero, who went to Mexico, and it also names Maria Manuel de Portugal as his daughter.

So I am still confused...

Here is the link to the book
Nobiliario genealogico de los reyes y titulos de España ...
By Alonso López de Haro

http://books.google.dk/books?id=AKr0u4RvQr0C&pg=PA215&dq=tesorero+ferna…

p. 215 (of the book, not the number of the Google images) has the info on Maria

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Hola a todos...

En mis investigaciones personales sobres los varios linajes que se cruzan y los personajes individuales, descubrí que nuestro antepasado Diego Arias Sotelo tenía un hermano mayor llamado Baltasar de Sotelo, tema que Denise Fastrup había tratado hace un año, y quien fue degollado por su participación en la Conspiración Cortés-Ávila, mientras que su hermano Diego Arias Sotelo fue desterrado desde la Ciudad de México hasta Orán, Argelia, en el norte de África. Parece que Denise Fastrup y Carlos Peredo ya estaban discutiendo este tema recientemente aquí, porque ya han hablado sobre sus datos básicos.

La narración sobre los últimos procesos de Baltasar de Sotelo se encuentra en “Noticias históricas de la Nueva España: Pub. con la protección del ministerio de fomento”, por Juan Suárez de Peralta (M.G. Hernández, 1878 - México - 392 páginas) - [http://books.google.com/books?id=b9E-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=%22…

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No sé por qué, pero no se transmitieron unas citaciones que puse entre "comillas" << ... >> < ... > Bueno la primera es:

"Dióse al capitán Baltasar de Sotelo, un perdón, ó treslado de los que á todos se daban."

Y la segunda es:

"Texto de búsqueda ARIAS SOTELO , del Archivo Archivo General de Indias , dentro de la unidad Casa de la Contratación

RESUMEN:
Título de la unidad: "DIEGO DE PORTUGAL MANUEL"
Archivo: Archivo General de Indias
Signatura: CONTRATACION,5229,N.5,R.1
Soporte:
Expediente de información y licencia de pasajero a indias de Diego de Portugal Manuel, natural de México, sobrino del conde del Villar [Fernando de Torres y Portugal], virrey de Perú, hijo de Arias Sotelo y María Manuel, a Perú. Fecha final 1584-Sep-19"

Bueno es todo por el momento...

Steven Francisco Hernández López

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Dear Steven

Thank you very much for your contributions in the threads regarding the sotelo moctezuma family! I hope you can find the time and interest to continue. I have myself gone through parts of the oldest records from Morelia, but as I am not so good at colonial spanish, i have surely missed some things. However, the little bits i could read were fun to discover (i am interested in that time period anyway).

Fernando sotelo is a padrino in a marriage record in the mid 1580's, that's the earliest primaty reference to him i have seen, i found it recently in the records from Morelia. I will post the citation and link when i get home from work. It is his son Juan who appears to be the Juan Sotelo who married Juana Ruiz and died in Aguascalientes, discussed earlier in a post in this thread.

Regards
Denise

Comentario

Hi
I can see I may have made a mistake regarding Fernando Sotelo, or at least I cannot find that link for a reference to him in the 1580's. I may have remembered wrong, or else the link in on my old laptop which I do not have access to right now. Sorry for the confusion!

What I do have on Fernando Sotelo, I have noted below. Actually I do not know if this is the same person (the son of Diego Arias Sotelo and Leonor Valderrama Montesuma, in which case he lived to be a very old man!) or father and son:

_________________

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18746-47703-55?cc=1883388&wc…

"México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1555-1996," images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18746-47703-55?cc=1883388&wc… : accessed 13 Jan 2014), Morelia > Sagrario Metropolitano > Matrimonios 1623-1642 > image 21 of 442.

22 January 1637, marriage of
Juan Arias mulato libre and Catalina Tristan aka Catalina

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Así me gusta…que bueno que todos tomemos cartas en el asunto, discutamos y contribuyamos a esta discusión importante para poner en enfoque esta imagen borrosa que tenemos sobre el linaje de los Sotelo, los Valderrama, los Moctezuma y sus familias colaterales. ¡Qué bueno que estamos reuniendo los hilos sueltos presentado a cada paso datos nuevos que nos abran paso a nuevos descubrimientos!
Y como anillo al dedo y justo que estamos hablando sobre el tema de Petronila de Moctezuma y de Martin Navarro sale algo justamente de ellos.

El pasado 8 de enero del 2014, el señor John P. Schmal publicó “Moctezuma's Descendants in Aguascalientes: Tracking the offspring of the last Aztec monarch” en http://latinola.com/story.php?story=12449. Allí él elabora a largo sobre varios datos que todos los que estudiamos la genealogía de Los Altos de Jalisco ya más o menos conocemos. Conozco a John Schmal personalmente y estoy seguro que ha investigado bien las fuentes documentales.

De nuevo, este es

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Steven, Denise y Carlos:
¡Que maravilla! Gracias por la dedicación hacia al tema de los Arias Sotelo. Ya tenía varios datos y algunos documentos, mas nunca conseguí el tiempo para estudiarlo más a fondo. Especialmente, los documentos que prueban el linaje de los Arias Sotelo en Castilla. Es bien probable que con los que reunimos ahora, puedemos buscar una ejecutoría de hidalguía en la Chancellería de Valladolid que nos dará datos adicionales sobre los Arias de Sotelo.
De hecho, he estudado bastante sobre los Núñez Vela cuya familia desciendo varias veces. Lo interesante de esta ilustre familia es que entre sus descendientes se encuentran los Muñoz de Xérez. Más una vez, les agradezco por la gentileza y amor hacia la genealogía en ayudarnos mutuamente.
Daniel Méndez de Torres y CaminoSan José, Calif

Comentario

Un dato mas... Existen dos descendientes de Cuitlahuac, hermano de
Moctezuma Xocoyotzin, llamadas Petronila, parece ser que este nombre fue
comunmente usado por los dscendientes de Moctezuma, esta informacion se
puede consultar del codice de Ixhuatepec.
La anterior informacion me la proporciono Maria Teresa Dorantes.

ATTE
Mario Gonzalez

El 13 de enero de 2014, 9:40, Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino
mendezdetorres@hotmail.com> escribió:

> Steven, Denise y Carlos:
> ¡Que maravilla! Gracias por la dedicación hacia al tema de los Arias
> Sotelo. Ya tenía varios datos y algunos documentos, mas nunca conseguí el
> tiempo para estudiarlo más a fondo. Especialmente, los documentos que
> prueban el linaje de los Arias Sotelo en Castilla. Es bien probable que con
> los que reunimos ahora, puedemos buscar una ejecutoría de hidalguía en la
> Chancellería de Valladolid que nos dará datos adicionales sobre los Arias
> de Sotelo.
> De hecho, he estudado bastante sobre los Núñez Vela cuya

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Carlos Peredo

Estimado (casi seguro) primo

Gracias por enriquecer el contexto de la saga de los Arias Sotelo en América y las viscicitudes que afrontaron.

Hay algunos datos que ya he referido en otros "nodes" y que permiten ir formando una historia más correcta del tema.

Por ejemplo: Diego Arias Sotelo llegó a Nueva España en 1550 y no antes, ya que vino junto al Virrey Luis de Velasco, el cual inició su periódo en 1550. La prueba está en un documento que hay en PARES sobre el trámite para obtener el cargo de regidor de la Ciudad de México que hizo Diego Arias Sotelo en 1559 a través de un representante en España ya que él estaba en México; en dicho documento se presentan varios testigos a declarar y todos coinciden en que Diego debe de tener más de treinta años (uno es más correcto y dice la edad real 34), que es HIJO DEL CAPITÁN ANTONIO SOTELO Y SU MUJER UZENDA NÚÑEZ, que es de la aldea de Palo a un lado de Zamora, que uno de ellos lo vió empacar para irse a Nva España en

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Mr. Ricci, I'm in Santa Monica right now. I would like to go down to the
Family History Library in West L.A. tomorrow to have a look around. Could
you describe the document? What does it look like? Is it a chart? A piece
of paper? What exactly should I be looking for?

Paige

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It was not a chart. It was written out and focused on Lpoe Ruiz de Esparza. It explained that he had been In the new world for two years. He was already married. It identified his wife and that she descended from Moctezuma. I did not find the document. The library was closing for what turned out to be two years for remodeling. I was trying to squeeze in as much reach as I could before they closed. They were trying to kick me out but let me stay a few more minutes because I had found some great stuff. As I was explaining what I had found, the guy next to made the find on Lope Ruiz de Esparza. We were the last ones there and he also asked for more time because of what he had found. When I heard his explanation to the staff I immediately asked to read the document. As he was trying to convince the staff that it was an important find, I read the document repeatedly. They told us that they were sorry but that they were already closed and that we had to leave. They said that they

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Dear Paige,

I wish you a lot of luck looking for this document on Lope Ruiz de Esparza. Besides stating that Petronila is a descendant of Moctezuma, this document clearly states when he arrived and that he had gotten married in the two years from when he arrived to the date that the document had been written. With more time to thoroughly study this document there is a possibility to come up with more information. I was such in shock when I was reading the document that I just gave it back when they demanded that we leave.

R.A.Ricci

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It just came to me that we can look at the sign-in sheet to the film room that is dated the last day before they closed the library for remodeling to find all the people that checked out films. If the discoverer of the document signed in, then we can track him down. It comes down to whether or not the library will let us access the sign-in sheet for that day. Ill admit that sometimes I was in a hurry to get to work and didn't sign in like I was supposed to. Let's hope that he signed in.

R A Ricci

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Hi Carlos

First I would like to thank you for taking a look at the document - you got much more out of it than I did, although I had seen "don Fernando mi ermano" (another reason I think the name Francisco as Cristobal's father must be a mistake). I think it's very exciting reading because it tells me that Diego Arias Sotelo survived many years after he was banished to Oran, and this means its quite possible he had a hand in deciding who his daughter Petronila married.
Regarding the name Francisco, I saw it on the description and ID of the document. Here is a copy-paste from the page in PARES:
_____________________________________
RESUMEN:
Título de la unidad: "Cristóbal de Valderrama Sotelo"
Archivo: Archivo General de Indias
Signatura: INDIFERENTE,2060,N.88
Soporte: contiene imágenes digitalizadas

Imprimir

indicador de lista abierta ÁREA DE IDENTIFICACIÓN

Código de Referencia:

ES.41091.AGI/22.15.2130//INDIFERENTE,2060,N.88

Titulo Nombre atribuido:

Cristóbal de

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Hello Denise, hello cousins!

I just confirmed that the file in PARES that contains the request of Don Cristóbal Arias de Sotelo y Valderrama to be given permission to return to Nueva España is wrongfully abstracted because it says that Cristóbal´s father was Francisco Arias de Sotelo and in fact Cristobal´s father was Diego Arias de Sotelo.

The mistake is understandable because in the mentioned file there are two pages where there are two samples of the signature of Cristóbal´s father and the signature is misguiding as it seems to say something like : F´o arias d sotelo.

Fortunately a recently re-read one document in familysearch where Don Diego Arias de Sotelo and several other encomenderos give full power to some lawyers of Mexico City to oversee some businesses of the mentioned encomenderos, that document was made in 1555 in Michoacan and in the end of teh document we can see the signatures of the encomenderos and EUREKA! the signature of Diego Arias the sotelo in 1555 is THE

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Hi Carlos

This is very interesting! And it is clear evidence that Diego did not die as an oarsman in the bowels of a ship fighting the infidels off the coast of Oran (which I think I remember was his sentence after being found guilty of taking part in the Cortes rebellion).

From what I saw in Pares, he acted as a kind of a lawyer in Spain after he returned there. He was after all married to a lady of high status, close to the court, so it's possible to explain how he got out of his punishment. It's a story I am still fascinated by....but I never did manage to establish a clear and definite link to the Sotelos of Zamora - those Sotelos named in the book The Men of Cajamarca, by James Lockhart.

https://books.google.dk/books?id=E1hfAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT314&lpg=PT314&dq=gre…

Because it looked like Diego did not die in

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Hello Carlos

Found an interesting bit of information on Lorenzo Sotelo Montezuma here:

https://books.google.dk/books?id=MxDRaJKhA6wC&pg=PA319&lpg=PA319&dq=lor…

The Presidio and Militia on the Northern Frontier of New Spain: 1570-1700
edited by Thomas H. Naylor, Charles W. Polzer

On pages 305 - 306 it states that Lorenzo was killed by Indians in Nueva Vizcaya in 1645.

I came across a wikitree entry with a marriage between a Margarita Ruiz de Esparza and a Diego Sotelo in the late 1600's and decided to try to find documentation that the Sotelos of Chihuahua are descended fra Fernando Sotelo, son of Diego Arias Sotelo and Leonor Valderrama Moctezuma. Haven't found documentation yet, but ....the original record (image) of the marriage shows the parents of Diego are Don Lorenzo Sotelo and Ana de Rivera. Via

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Hello Denise, so nice to hear from you

Interesting piece this one about this Lorenzo de Sotelo Moctezuma. My opinion on this is that there were apparently two men called Lorenzo Sotelo Moctezuma in this region of the Conchos river, one of them was the son of the Indian Governor Joseph Juan, who was probably baptized with the name of the "spaniard" Juan Sotelo Moctezuma (we know that was a common practice)

I´m thinking that Juan Sotelo moved from Tarímbaro to the northern regions of New Spain either by will or due to a comission to go help settling those lands. We know that living in those regions at that time was very dangerous, but at the same time it was atractive because the minerals being discovered in Zacatecas, San Luis Potosí and other places had made some men real tycoons. So I think Juan Sotelo moved to aguascalientes some time around 1635 with his second wife María Ruíz, and his son (from his first marriage) Lorenzo; leaving in Michoacán his daughter María (also from his

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Hi Carlos

In the Spanish transcription (the book provides the English translation and the original Spanish) he is identified on page 119 as don Lorenzo Sotelo Montezuma and on page 120 as the spaniard Don Lorenzo Montezuma. So I am still confused. Also, if he was the son of Juan, he would only have been 14 years old when he was killed. Would he have been called "Don"? Why do you think his parents would sell the hacienda in Michoacan, after Lorenzo's death? I would think they would pack and return to where they came from. Hopefully this can be cleared up.

I am wondering if Lorenzo who was a religioso left the priesthood and went north seeking his fortune...

I have never seen Juan Sotelo’s (married to Maria Ruiz) testamento. Have you? Is there an image of it somewhere accessible or a transcription? I tried a few years back to look it up, but the website with testamentos always came back with an error message.

Regards
Denise

Comentario

Edgar,
Hasta donde yo se, no existe documento alguno que soporte la relación de Petronila Moctezuma con los Sotelo. Evidencia a favor esta basada en una linea de tiempo, pero nada mas. Sin embargo, existe evidencia contraria en base a linajes comprobados y documentos (solicitud de beneficios a la Corona) que nunca mencionan a Petronila (busca en los foros de NR información al respecto). Uno de los miembros de NR en algún momento mencionó haber visto la imagen de un documento (me parece referente a la pureza de sangre de la familia de Lope Ruiz de Esparza) donde se mencionaba que Petronila, la madre de su esposa Ana Francisca de Gabay, era nieta del Emperador Moctezuma. La existencia de este documento jamas ha sido demostrada (yo solicite la fuente, pero nunca fue otorgada). En lo particular, yo he eliminado de mi árbol dicha conexión con Moctezuma I por carecer de documentación. Cabe señalar que existieron otras lineas Moctezuma que se aliaron con Cortes para luchar contra su primo

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Hay dos documentos
Perdona Jaime por que nunca pude encontrar los documentos por que Cerraron la bibliotheca para remodelar por dos Anos y cuando abrieron de Nuevo ya no estaba el documento en el mismo lugar.
Yo vi el documento personalmente por diez minutos antes de cerrar la bibliotheca. Lo estudie hasta que me correaron El documento da la information que a segura que Ella Es bisnieta de Moctezuma.

el segundo documento da hasta mas informacion. este documento nombra a Martin Gabai de Navarro, explicando que Gabai Es el apellido y que el era de Navarro/a este documento nombra Los padres y abuelos de Petronila y dos bisabuelos.
No tengas dudes sober este asunto

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buenas tardes R.A.Ricci
un cordial saludo
una pregunta compañero
has tenido nuevamente la oportunidad de aver encontrado nuevamente este documento donde se mencionan que Petronila es descediente de Moctezuma?
o donde se mención los padres de martin gabay navarro ?
y los bisabuelos de ambos?

o me podrias orientar como puedo empezar a buscarlo o si existe alguna pagina donde los tengan digitalizado?
si tan solo tuviéramos este ultimo documento donde se los padres abuelos y bisabuelos de Petronila con ese tenemos para demostrar el linaje

esperemos y pronto podamos encontrar la evidencia

saludos

Comentario

Hi Gary

I have the clear impression a number of researchers in this forum are looking for a record that documents the relationship between Petronila de Moctezuma, and Diego Arias Sotelo and Leonor Valderrama Moctezuma.

In the recent thread on Francisco Sotelo, it was made clear that Juan Sotelo who died in Aguascalientes in the 1640s, (husband of Joana Ruiz, father of five children with her and two with a first wife,) is the same Juan Sotelo of Michoacan who was the son of Fernando Sotelo who was the son of Diego Arias Sotelo and Leonor Valderrama.

If Petronila de Moctezuma is the daughter of Diego and Leonor, that would make her Juan Sotelos aunt.

What we dont seem to know yet, is how Francisco Sotelo is related to Juan.
Nor do we have Petronila de Moctezuma's name on a document other than a dispensa (someone correct me if I am wrong here!). The dispensa does not specify through whom she is descended from Moctezuma, but the fact that her name is on a document was a major find

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Four documents exist that I know of
One State's that she is the great granddaughter of Moctezumaand gives some other information of ruis de Esparza and who are his parents in Spain it states focuses more on ruiz de Esparza, his ancestry and his wife and inlaws and gives a partial line and then jumps and says that she is the great granddaughter of moctezuma

The other document gives the whole arias de sotelo valderrama Leonor line all the way to Moctezuma

A third document that I found explains that leonor de moctezumas mother is the daughter to moctezumas cousin and advisor. His cousin was a very powerful authority in the Aztec empire. this one names leonor, Isabella and a third daughter of Moctezuma

The fourth document is one with the least information is the one showing that Bartolomeu Rodriguez Bajo and his wife are third cousins descendents of petronila Moctezuma. I descend from this couple. this one does not give info on petronilas parents or show any connection to the arias

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This is very true Armando, genealogy is an art and a very dedicated work. I have been spending quite a bit of time correcting errors that others have made in the past. It is okay to have hipothesis based on documents and various pieces of the puzzles, but we must state this. It is not concrete nor should be published till we have found primary sources to establish such connections.
Daniel Méndez de Torres CaminoBrasília - DF - Brasil

Comentario

Hello Daniel
A few years ago a member of nuestros ranches gave me some false information that sent me researching for almost a year and a half all of the ancestors of a Luisa Velasquez that I had been led to believe was my ancestor. I asked for documentation but he stated that his computer had crashed and lost the source details. I believed him because the same week that I had my flash drive back up stolen, my computer crashed and I lost a lot of information. I did have an older backup but lost important information that to this day I have not fully recovered. I believed that it was just a coincidence that it had happened to the both of us at about the same time.
I was very embarrassed when Guillermo Teresa de Tovar told me that this connection to my family did not exist and that Luisa Velasquez family did not have any connection at all to the families in Jalisco and Zacatecas. I waited for the nuestros ranches member to speak up and say that he had provided that info but he never

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Dear Armando,

You wrote that this is just heresay because it is just written on a forum. It maybe heresay to you but since I saw it with my own eyes I can take it as the truth. I have tried over and over to find the document but have not had success.

A marriage dispensation between Margarita Ruiz de Esparza (Died: 27/Sep/ 1724) m. Diego Sotelo on November 15, 1693 may provide the document we are looking for.

R. A. Ricci

Comentario

Hello RA Ricci, After hearing that you had found so many wonderful things at the LAFSC I decided to make the effort to go. I went to the "big one" on Santa Monica Blvd. I was expecting to see more materials. They did have rooms of computers available and the women who helped me was extremely nice. However, I saw only one room of books, few for Mexico; about 1 shelf. Was I at the correct place? Is there another section of books that I missed? Is there a section only for films? Are there more films there besides the ones we have available on familysearch.com?

Thank you, D. Corona

Comentario

Some comments on these documents ...

(1) This is apparently the reference in the Jaime Holcomb family group sheet for Lope Ruiz de Esparza: "Documentos proporcionados por el Licenciado Luis Lopez Martinez: Prueba de nobleza y limpieza de sangre hecha por el esposa en Aguascalientes con su ascendcia en Espana varias generacions, Historia familiar y muy escueta genealogia de la esposa - dice que la madre de la esposa fue nieta del ultimo Emperador Azteca, Moctezuma." My attempts to find this have not been successful.

(2) This is apparently well documented. For example, see, AGI, Patronato, 245, R.5." This is a chart made in about 1574 that shows the descent of Fernando de Sotelo Moctezuma and [if I read it correctly} "otros hijos de Diego Arias Sotelo," but does not name them. There are other genealogical charts in the AGI, as well. These call all be downloaded from PARES. I posted the details on how to search PARES a couple of years ago here at NR,

(3) Her mother is Acatlan

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Comentario

Hello George
The first document is in the family history library in West Los Angeles. I did not get this information off of Jaime Holcomb's work though I have copied and stored all of his work that I can find. I do not have that family group sheet in my collection. I actually saw the document in question. I took the afternoon off from work to run to the library for one last feeding to my addiction to genealogy before they closed for remodeling. I did not find the document. I was working on other lines and I had been extremely lucky that day and was trying to squeeze every minute of work in when the gentleman next to me almost had a heart attack because of what he had found. i reluctantly stopped what I was doing and asked him if he was ok he said he was fine and showed me the document. I read it over and over as we ignored the pleas from the staff to get up and leave. they would not allow me to make a copy since they said that it was past closing time And that it would be only a

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Rick

Thanks for the reply. The info about the first document is tantalizing! Hopefully, it will be found one day soon.

What is the second document you refer to? Is it available electronically? The only things I've seen that connects Petronila to the Arias Sotelo family are unsourced internet genealogies. She is not named in the Codex Chimalpahin, but there is reference to five unnamed children of Fernando Sotelo de Moctezuma. There is a recent NR post that quotes "Familias y Casas de la Vieja Valladolid" that gives some of their names, but still leaves out two. I have located a copy in the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley, but haven't been able to make it there yet.

The three named wives of Moctezuma that I know are Teotlaco (son Axayacatl and daughter Tecuichpochtzin/Isabel), Acatlan (daughters Leonor [aka Mariana/Marina] and Maria), Maria Miahuaxochitl [son Pedro [Tlacahueantzin]). There are number of children by unnamed wives/concubines, some of whom apparently survived the

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

George
The second document clearly stated and removed all doubt as to the ancestry. It was a transcription of the original document and clearly stated what everyone is asking for . It was a literal transcription, word for word, and It was Guillermo Tovar de Teresa that provided it. he stated that he had a copy of the original document.

he also stated that he had new information on the Romos in Spain that was in his words a major find. he said that he was writing a book and that all documentation would be included.

He said that I would have to wait for the book.

Comentario

The second document was a transcription of what original document?

Since don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa is no longer with us and we have no way
to know if the book he was writing will be published we are still left with
the original question. Which document proves the ancestry of Petronila de
Moctezuma?

In *Retoños De España* *En La Nueva Galicia* Tomo VII Ruiz de Esparza pages
214-215 don Mariano González Leal mentions the genealogy of Petronila de
Moctezuma given to him by don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa. Don Mariano also
mentions that the book by don Guillermo was in the process of being
printed. However it has been over two years since Retoños was published and
we still have no word on the book by the late don Guillermo.

He has Moctezuma II as the father of Leonor de Moctezuma whose second
marriage was to the conquistador Cristóbal de Valderrama. They had a
daughter named Leonor de Valderrama y Moctezuma who married Diego Arias de
Sotelo. They were the parents of our ancestor

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Hi Armando

I have also read the appendix in "Retonos" and have looked forward to seeing Don Guillermo's next publication. Since he has unfortunately passed away, i am thinking that surely the administrator of his estate will name someone to archive his materials and make sure his latest work gets published, if he was close to finishing it. He would surely not have provided the new information on Petronila de Moctesuma in the appendix of Retonos unless he already had the documentation in order. That documentation - the citation for the relevant document, which i understant from RA Ricci's comment he had a copy of - must be somewhere among his research notes and materials. I would imagine its in the draft of what he was planning to publish. Could there be someone in this forum who knew Don Guillermo and who would know who to ask about the work he left unfinished? Someone who could find out if it will be published posthumously?

Regards
Denise

Comentario

Rafael Tovar y de Teresa es hermano de Guillermo, actualmente en el gobierno de Mexico desempeña el papel de presidente del consejo nacional para la cultura y las artes, a el podriamos hacerle llegar la peticion que hace Denise Fastrup de preguntarle si efectivamente Guillermo estaba por publicar un libro que citara la ascendencia de Petronila Moctezuma. Para darle mas formalidad, me gustaria que dicha peticion la hiciera el admistrador de este foro de genealogia o un miembro que ya haya tratado anteriormente a la familia de Guillermo.

Saludos

ATTE
Mario Gonzalez.

Comentario

Dear Mario Gonzalez

Thank you for responding to my post. I fully agree with your proposal on how to go about it- a formal inquiry from a forum represented by the administrator and someone who has already met his family, would be the best way to go about it. ( I rephrase your words here in English for those in the forum whose Spanish may be limited, please correct me if i get it wrong). Don Guillermo was a member of Nuestros Ranchos, after all, and with the appendix in Retonos he showed his clear intent to make the information accessible to the public.

Regards,
Denise Hernandez Fastrup

Comentario

Hello Denise,

I see there was some confusion. I had never questioned if don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa had the documentation in order. I don't doubt at all that he did. What many of us are looking for is information about the document. What kind of document is it, where is the original located, what does it say, is there a way to obtain a copy of the original? That is what we want to know and that is what I questioned to a person who seems to more know than is willing to write. Since many projects are left in limbo, or even abandoned completely, when a person passes away we are left to wonder about the status of the printing of the book. Mario brought up a very valid point about contacting don Rafael Tovar de Teresa to inquire if they are going to proceed with the printing of the book and when the expected date of publication is. Hopefully someone here is willing to do that.

Saludos,
Armando

---------------------------------------------------------------

Don Guillermo Tovar de

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Hace unos años, Don Mariano González-Leal me mandó su capítulo completo de Ruiz de Esparza donde se encuentra el Apéndice dedicado al linaje de Moctezuma. En dicho apéndice, le da crédito a don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa por estos datos. Lamentablemente, ya no disponemos de la sabiduría que guardaba la mente del recientemente fallecido genealogista para aclararnos las cosas e indicarnos cuales fueron sus fuentes documentales para esclaracer el linaje entre Petronila de Moctezuma y el Tlatoani Mexica. En la página 28 del capítulo “Ruiz de Esparza” de RETOÑOS DE ESPAÑA EN LA NUEVA GALICIA, don Mariano escribe lo siguiente:

“
APÉNDICE

MOCTEZUMA

Una vez estando en prensa la presente obra, don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa ha tenido la gentileza de proporcionarme información sumamente valiosa, producto de su personal investigación, que complemente esta monografía y también la correspondiente a la familia Fernández de Vaulus. En virtud de que esta obra ha sido concluida y se encuentra ya

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Steven

Thank you very much for posting this appendix.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Comentario

Where are those documents located? That is what people want to know. They
don't just want to know that there is a document somewhere. They want a
reference.

The genealogy of Petronila de Moctezuma is the most requested genealogy by
people that I have corresponded with outside of Nuestros Ranchos.

(1) The first is a copy of the the Prueba de nobleza y limpieza de sangre
de Ana de Gabai wife of Lope Ruiz de Esparza? If not what was it? What kind
of document? What kind of book or collection is the document located in?

(2) What kind of document has named Petronila as Arias Moctezuma or Sotelo
Moctezuma and named her as a daughter and named her husband as Martin Gabai
from Navarre/a ?

(3) Where is this document located? What kind of book or collection?

(4) I did already have the dispensa and I'll post the pertinent info here
so people don't have to search elsewhere.

At the bottom left of image 319 of the dispensa that starts on 316 at
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18377

Read full comment ➜

Dias Picasso

Published by Aaront1990 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Wondering if any one has ever done research on the DIas Picasso surnames . Looking for the parents of Esteban Dias and Anna Picasso.

Melchora de Ornelas and Nicolas Lopez

Published by dcalonso –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum

I was hoping someone might be able to help me find the possible parents of
Melchora de Ornelas and Nicolas Lopez who had a natural born child around
1717, probably in Agu

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi Danny,

El Potrero de los Lopez, still exists, so you might be able to find out who founded it and that might help you narrow down possible parents, but locating the parents of hijos naturales can be difficult without a dispensa or an extremely unique name which Nicolas Lopez definitely isn't. I believe el Potrero de los Lopez is in Calvillo or somewhere near San Jose de Gracia, so you might want to look there.

As far as Melchora de Ornelas, just based on name and timeframe, she sounds like she could be the child of Melchora Perez de Frias and Jose de Ornelas, although I'm not aware of a child with that name but I'm also not familiar with all their children.

Chris
From: Danny Alonso
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 6:22 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Melchora de Ornelas and Nicolas Lopez

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum

I was hoping someone might be able to help me find the possible parents of Melchora de Ornelas and Nicolas Lopez

Read full comment ➜

New member

Published by jfletes –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello, My name is Jesus Fletes from Las Vegas NV. I have been investigating my Ancestry for about 2 years now, and was very excited when I found the "Nuestros Ranchos"site.

Comentarios

Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Dom, 2017-05-14 18:51 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

Happy Mother's Day Jesus Fletes and welcome to Nuestrosranchos. Just recently we did some work on the Cobian lines. A few months ago I posted some information on the first Covarrbias lines to mexico and their ancestry in Spain. When you ask for help, remember to provide as much detail as you can because some of the smallest details are used to break through brick walls.

Rick A. Ricci

Published by jfletes – Dom, 2017-05-14 19:59 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

Thanks Ricci. It'd be great if you can point me to those posts.

Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Dom, 2017-05-14 21:27 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

Dear Jesus Fletes,

Here are some posts you should check out:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/23490

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/23479

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/23843

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/lareinatamayo

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/18079

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/20163

Once you are signed in, Place a name that you want to search in the search box in the top right hand corner of the homepage.

Good luck,

Rick A. Ricci

Published by gabriel.gutierrez – Mar, 2017-09-26 14:00 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

From: Gabe Gutierrez

Doing Gutierrez and Murillo last names research in Jerez and Panuco, Zacatecas.
Roque and Martinez in Aguascalientes, Ags.
Delgado and Cornejo in Encarnacion de Diaz and Lagos, Jal.

Welcome any info you might want share or will be more than happy to share my findings.

Gabe

Comentario

I have Gutierrez and Murillo but they are from Jalisco.

Esther Jordan (aka Lopez Mendoza)

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 1:51 PM, wrote:

>
> From: Gabe Gutierrez
>
> Doing Gutierrez and Murillo last names research in Jerez and Panuco,
> Zacatecas.
> Roque and Martinez in Aguascalientes, Ags.
> Delgado and Cornejo in Encarnacion de Diaz and Lagos, Jal.
>
> Welcome any info you might want share or will be more than happy to share
> my findings.
>
> Gabe

Juan Joseph Perea de Escamilla and Sebastiana Hurtado de Mendoza-Viramontes de la Cadena

Published by Aaront1990 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Im trying to see if anyone here in Nuestros Ranchos has any information on my Escamilla line..

Comentarios

Comentario

Hola Aaron:

La familia Perea es de Querétaro desde hace varios siglos pero las tierras las tenían en Apaseo el Alto, Guanajuato puedes buscar en el mapa la localidad de Espejo.

Saludos

Marcelina

Comentario

Hola Marcelina,

Muchas gracias por la informacion si pense que podrian venir de Queretaro sinedo que esta muy cercas de Apaseo el Alto, alle records de bautismo en apaseo el grande . No e podido allar nada sobre los Perea tienes tu algun record de ellos?

Saludos

Aaron

Comentario

Hola Aaron:

La familia Perea estuvo relacionada con el conquistador Don Hernando Pérez de Córdova y Bocanegra quien fue Conde de los Apaseos y encomendero de Acámbaro (desciende de la familia Fernández de Córdoba de la rama de Guadalcázar). Estuvieron implicados en la conspiración de Martín Cortés en 1567 y posiblemente por eso no hay suficientes registros, es hasta fines del siglo XVIII que adquiere notoriedad Domingo de Perea y Guzmán que tuvo propiedades tanto en San Juan del Río Querétaro como en la zona de Apaseo, es posible que tus parientes descienden de ésta persona.
No tengo muchos registros de esa familia ppero te sugiero que realices las búsquedas tanto en Querétaro como en Guanajuato.

Saludos

Marcelina

Errors in text display

Published by rmfpdx –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Does anyone else have text display errors when receiving emails that contain letters with accent marks?

Comentarios

Comentario

Do you have your Language set for Spanish or English. Seems something doesn't recognize accent marks

Emilie

Port Orchard, WA

________________________________
From: Research on behalf of Spam
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 11:41 AM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Errors in text display

Does anyone else have text display errors when receiving emails that contain letters with accent marks? I notice that words like “María” show up in my email as “Mar?a” or some other incorrect character. (I hope mine shows up on the list as Maria with the letter “i” accented - if it doesn’t, then it’s just the error preventing it.)

I’m using Mail.app in MacOS Sierra 10.12.6. Is it a function of some character encoding that I need to adjust? It’s very annoying having to read Spanish with all the diacriticals replaced by random characters.

Thanks,
Rick Fernández

viejos vecinos de san Luis Potosi por Senor Rafael Morales Bocardo Part 2

Published by sarod77 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Part II of names of Viejo Vecinos has been added to Part I posted 2 Sept.

Comentarios

General Digest, Vol 140, Issue 13

Published by rmfpdx –
Foros
History, Culture and General Discussion

Barbara,
Can you take a picture of the word and attach it to an email?

Comentarios

Comentario

Barbara,

I have not come across this word before; but, recognizing that recording scribes very often misspelled words, let me try a little Spanish etymological game and start with another spelling: tajador

Tajo (an actual Spanish word): with 'tarea' actually being its synonym; and defined as 'work that is to be done in a limited time.'

Therefore, a 'tajador' could be a 'day-worker' --- the same as jornalero, a laborer that typically gets paid 'by the day.'

... and with that, I get a headache and now I need a beer.

Efrain Conrique

Comentario

Efrain. Let me join you with a cerveza, too.

Paul Gomez
Rancho Cucamonga, CA.
Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 17, 2017, at 7:02 PM, conrique1@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Barbara, I have not come across this word before; but, recognizing that
> recording scribes very often misspelled words, let me try a little Spanish
> etymological game and start with another spelling: tajador Tajo (an actual
> Spanish word): with 'tarea' actually being its synonym; and defined as 'work
> that is to be done in a limited time.' Therefore, a 'tajador' could be a
> 'day-worker' --- the same as jornalero, a laborer that typically gets paid
> 'by the day.' ... and with that, I get a headache and now I need a beer.
> Efrain Conrique
>

Comentario

Efrain,
Sorry about the headache! The same word was used years earlier on his marriage record, only not as clear as the death records. But I think your right, I think it's just another way of saying daily worker. I'm just glad he wasn't making tacos for a living in 1875!!!
Thanks again for your help!
Barbara

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 17, 2017, at 7:02 PM, conrique1@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Barbara, I have not come across this word before; but, recognizing that
> recording scribes very often misspelled words, let me try a little Spanish
> etymological game and start with another spelling: tajador Tajo (an actual
> Spanish word): with 'tarea' actually being its synonym; and defined as 'work
> that is to be done in a limited time.' Therefore, a 'tajador' could be a
> 'day-worker' --- the same as jornalero, a laborer that typically gets paid
> 'by the day.' ... and with that, I get a headache and now I need a beer.
> Efrain Conrique
>

Comentario

Barbara,It can also mean working a Tajo of land (a piece of land)Anna

From: Barbara Andrews
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Cc: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2017 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] tageador

Efrain,
Sorry about the headache!  The same word was used years earlier on his marriage record, only not as clear as the death records. But I think your right, I think it's just another way of saying daily worker. I'm just glad he wasn't making tacos for a living in 1875!!!
Thanks again for your help!
Barbara

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 17, 2017, at 7:02 PM, conrique1@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Barbara, I have not come across this word before; but, recognizing that
> recording scribes very often misspelled words, let me try a little Spanish
> etymological game and start with another spelling: tajador Tajo (an actual
> Spanish word): with 'tarea' actually being its synonym; and defined as 'work
> that is to be done in a limited

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Efrain,
Sorry about the headache! The same word was used years earlier on his marriage record, only not as clear as the death records. But I think your right, I think it's just another way of saying daily worker. I'm just glad he wasn't making tacos for a living in 1875!!!
Thanks again for your help!
Barbara

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 17, 2017, at 7:02 PM, conrique1@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Barbara, I have not come across this word before; but, recognizing that
> recording scribes very often misspelled words, let me try a little Spanish
> etymological game and start with another spelling: tajador Tajo (an actual
> Spanish word): with 'tarea' actually being its synonym; and defined as 'work
> that is to be done in a limited time.' Therefore, a 'tajador' could be a
> 'day-worker' --- the same as jornalero, a laborer that typically gets paid
> 'by the day.' ... and with that, I get a headache and now I need a beer.
> Efrain Conrique
>

Comentario

"Tageador", "tajeador", el que hace tajos, cortes; es decir "carnicero". Al pronunciarse, tageador y tajeador, sonarán igual.
________________________________
From: General on behalf of conrique1@earthlink.net
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2017 7:02 PM
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] tageador

Barbara, I have not come across this word before; but, recognizing that
recording scribes very often misspelled words, let me try a little Spanish
etymological game and start with another spelling: tajador Tajo (an actual
Spanish word): with 'tarea' actually being its synonym; and defined as 'work
that is to be done in a limited time.' Therefore, a 'tajador' could be a
'day-worker' --- the same as jornalero, a laborer that typically gets paid
'by the day.' ... and with that, I get a headache and now I need a beer.
Efrain Conrique

Comentario

Thanks, I have never seen that occupation, but I love learning, therefore I truly appreciate that this query was posted online and that many individuals volunteered and were willing to do the research and to provide their input.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Luis Bojorquez"
Sent: ‎9/‎18/‎2017 8:54 AM
To: "general@nuestrosranchos.org"
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] tageador

"Tageador", "tajeador", el que hace tajos, cortes; es decir "carnicero". Al pronunciarse, tageador y tajeador, sonarán igual.
________________________________
From: General on behalf of conrique1@earthlink.net
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2017 7:02 PM
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] tageador

Barbara, I have not come across this word before; but, recognizing that
recording scribes very often misspelled words, let me try a little Spanish
etymological game and start with another spelling: tajador Tajo (an actual
Spanish word): with 'tarea' actually being its synonym; and

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Alicia, I agree and am very greatfull for the support this group has always given!! Research can be a difficult process so to have all this support is priceless!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 18, 2017, at 9:10 AM, Alicia Carrillo wrote:
>
> Thanks, I have never seen that occupation, but I love learning, therefore I truly appreciate that this query was posted online and that many individuals volunteered and were willing to do the research and to provide their input.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Luis Bojorquez"
> Sent: ‎9/‎18/‎2017 8:54 AM
> To: "general@nuestrosranchos.org"
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] tageador
>
> "Tageador", "tajeador", el que hace tajos, cortes; es decir "carnicero". Al pronunciarse, tageador y tajeador, sonarán igual.
> ________________________________
> From: General on behalf of conrique1@earthlink.net
> Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2017 7:02 PM
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] tageador
>
> Barbara, I

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Tajador. El que taja , ó corta alguna cosa. [Diccionario de Autoridades. Año de 1737. Edición Facsímil. Real Academia Española. Editorial Gredos, S.A. Madrid, 1964]
________________________________
From: General on behalf of Barbara Andrews
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 12:01 PM
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] tageador

Alicia, I agree and am very greatfull for the support this group has always given!! Research can be a difficult process so to have all this support is priceless!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 18, 2017, at 9:10 AM, Alicia Carrillo wrote:
>
> Thanks, I have never seen that occupation, but I love learning, therefore I truly appreciate that this query was posted online and that many individuals volunteered and were willing to do the research and to provide their input.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Luis Bojorquez"
> Sent: ‎9/‎18/‎2017 8:54 AM
> To: "general@nuestrosranchos.org"
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] tageador
>
>

Read full comment ➜

Help with job discription!

Published by andrews90032 –
Foros
History, Culture and General Discussion

Hello Everyone, Can someone take a look at the link I've included please. I cant figure what type of work is stated for Juan Aguirre on his death record.

Comentarios

Comentario

Sorry, I don't have an Ancestry.com subscription and it appears you have to have one to view the site. Can you post the word you have doubts about here?

Comentario

Thank you,, these are Zacatecas' civil records. The record is a death record for my 2x great grandfather Juan Aguirre, Jan 1875. He was 30 at his time of death and it gave his job as either a "tagcador " or "tageador". I have not come across this word before. I'm assuming it's another word for "jornalero".
Hopefully, someone has come across it in their research.
Thanks for any help,
Barbara
Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:02 PM, rmfpdx@mac.com wrote:
>
> Sorry, I don't have an Ancestry.com subscription and it appears you have to
> have one to view the site. Can you post the word you have doubts about here?
>

Comentario

Thank you,, these are Zacatecas' civil records. The record is a death record for my 2x great grandfather Juan Aguirre, Jan 1875. He was 30 at his time of death and it gave his job as either a "tagcador " or "tageador". I have not come across this word before. I'm assuming it's another word for "jornalero".
Hopefully, someone has come across it in their research.
Thanks for any help,
Barbara
Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:02 PM, rmfpdx@mac.com wrote:
>
> Sorry, I don't have an Ancestry.com subscription and it appears you have to
> have one to view the site. Can you post the word you have doubts about here?
>

María de Islas y Moctezuma.

Published by Ramirez –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hola amigos del foro, se que muchas veces se ha hablado acerca de María de Islas y Moctezuma, mujer de Andrés Martín Camacho, vecinos de Sierra de Pinos en 1625 aproximadamente.

Comentarios

Comentario

I can say without a doubt they are the same person. If someone bother's to read the Maria de la isla's daughter's marriage record, she lists herself as Maria de la isla Ruelas in her marriage to agustin lopez de la cerda also and in her will she put her mother as maria de isla y moctezuma. Andres Martin Camacho and Andres Martin Sotomayor the same person he just used those two names. I have the marriage record for their son Nicolas. Again on his baptismal record it lists his mother as maria de isla, on his marriage record maria de la ruelas. The marriage record states he was from Teocaltiche where the baptismal record is also from. I really don't know how much more proof one needs to discover that. It was a lot of cross referencing for me to be able to determine that.

Comentario

I'm not actually sure who you're responding to, but I think your statement could be confusing to people not entirely familiar with these families, because although possibly correct depending upon whom and the timeframe you're referring to, there are definitely separate and distinct individuals with the same names you mentioned. And, I'm still not entirely sure that you're not confusing individuals with similar names. There is a María de Islas aka María de Islas Montezuma aka María de Islas y Sotomayor aka María de Islas Martín that was married to Agustín López de la Cerda. She was the daughter of capitán Andrés Martín de Sotomayor and María de Isla y Moctezuma. This María de Isla y Moctezuma, married to capitán Andrés Martín de Sotomayor, is in no way the same as the first María de la Ruelas married to Andrés Martín Camacho, her only relationship being the daughter-in-law. The first María de la Ruelas aka María de Sotomayor was born about 1585 and along with her husband Andrés Martín

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Hola Carlos,

Se me hace que tienes algunos errores. Lo siguiente es lo que he encontrado
en Retoños de España, lo que me ha proporcionado Mary Lou Montagna, y un
testamento en http://sigue.aguascalientes.gob.mx/axweb/login.aspx

Andrés Martín casó con María de Roelas o de Sotomayor (Retoños de España)
tuvieron entre otros a

María de Sotomayor casada el 14 abril 1630 en Pinos con Juan Montañez viudo
de Sebastiana Díaz Medel Domínguez.

Joseph Martín casado el 1 Sep 1638 en Ojuelos casado con Ana Vicente
Montañés bautizada 28 mayo 1626 hija de Juan Montañés Vicente y su primera
esposa Sebastiana Díaz Medel Domínguez. (Mary Lou Montagna y lo que
escribiste)

Andrés Martín de Sotomayor a veces citado como Andrés Martín Camacho casado
con María de Isla y Moctezuma. (Retoños de España)

Estos últimos tuvieron entre otros a María de Isla y Sotomayor casada con
Agustín López de la Serda el 3 junio 1667 en Aguascalientes.

Mary Lou escribió que Andrés Martín y María de Roelas o de Sotomayor

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Comentario

No tengo mayores aportes a los que ya escribieron sin embargo no pude evitar pensar en Hernando de Isla, vecino de Guadix, administrador de la Hacienda en Nueva España de Diego Luis de Moctezuma en 1595. ¿Tendrá alguna relación?

Saludos cordiales,

Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Estimado Armando

Es posible que yo tenga un error al tener a una María de Isla Moctezuma Sotomayor como hija de Joseph Martín de Isla Sotomayor y Ana Vicente Montañés Medel, no puse anotaciones al respecto y ahora no recuerdo cómo fué que la puse como hija de ellos.

Tengo en cambio una nota sobre una dispensa que obtuvo María de San José Ruelas (hija de Joseph de San Martín y ana Vicente) para casar con su primo hermano Alonso Martín Saldaña, hijo de Teresa de las Ruelas Martín Sotomayor y de Diego Martín Saldaña; donde se demuestra que ambos contrayentes son nietos de María de Isla Ruelas y Andrés Martín Sotomayor.

Sobre María de Isla Ruelas casada con Andrés Martín Sotomayor , ha quedado en NR probado que era hermana de Magdalena de Lavezares por la dispensa de la boda de María Catarina de Islas - bisnieta de Magdalena de Lavezares, - con José Díaz de León - bisnieto de María de Isla Ruelas. Dicha boda se realizó en 30-nov-1709.

Entre los hijos de María de Isla

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Comentario

Estimado Carlos,

Parece que siguen algunos errores.

El Andrés que casó con MARIA DE RUELAS no usaba el apellido Sotomayor sino
la esposa según Retoños de España. Esta María jamás usó el apellido ISLAS.

Estos últimos tuvieron un hijo que se llamaba Andrés Martín de Sotomayor.
Martín por el apellido paterno y Sotomayor por el apellido materno. Este es
el que casó con MARIA DE ISLAS Y MOCTEZUMA. Ella nunca usó el apellido
RUELAS.

Las personas que tienes como hijos de María de Isla y Andrés Martín
Sotomayor realmente son hijos de Andrés Martín y de María de Isla
Sotomayor. La colocación de los apellidos es importante.

La dispensa de Joseph Díaz de León se trata de otra María de Islas. Es la
que casó con Cristóbal de Lozano Martínez y todavía no se ha comprobado el
parentesco de esta María de Islas con María de Islas y Moctezuma.

María de Isla y Ruelas fue hija de Andrés Martín de Sotomayor y de María
González de Islas y Moctezuma y casó con Agustín López de la Cerda en 1667.
Esta

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Comentario

Una corrección a lo que había escrito.

Las personas que tienes como hijos de María de Isla y Andrés Martín
Sotomayor realmente son hijos de Andrés Martín y de María de RUELAS
Sotomayor. La colocación de los apellidos es importante.

2014/1/15 Armando

> Estimado Carlos,
>
> Parece que siguen algunos errores.
>
> El Andrés que casó con MARIA DE RUELAS no usaba el apellido Sotomayor sino
> la esposa según Retoños de España. Esta María jamás usó el apellido ISLAS.
>
> Estos últimos tuvieron un hijo que se llamaba Andrés Martín de Sotomayor.
> Martín por el apellido paterno y Sotomayor por el apellido materno. Este es
> el que casó con MARIA DE ISLAS Y MOCTEZUMA. Ella nunca usó el apellido
> RUELAS.
>
> Las personas que tienes como hijos de María de Isla y Andrés Martín
> Sotomayor realmente son hijos de Andrés Martín y de María de Isla
> Sotomayor. La colocación de los apellidos es importante.
>
> La dispensa de Joseph Díaz de León se trata de otra María de Islas. Es la
> que casó con

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

T-Mobile. America's First Nationwide 4G Network

Pat Corbera wrote:

>
>
>Jose Luis Felix, Juan Alvarez and list members,
>
>My Spanish reading skills are very limited mostly to the vital records that I have located online and from various member sharing/postings...
>
>My husband (Florentino L Corbera aka Tino)is related to Francisco Gonzalez Martinez y Magdalena de la Besares (this couple is Tino's 9th GGparents). They the parents of:
>
>Bernardino Gonzales de Isla, married on 21 Apr 1631 in Nochistlan, Zac. to (Mariana Moscoso y Sandoval, daughter of Juan Moscoso y Sandoval "el Viejo," y Catalina Cortes)... Bernardino and Mariana are Tino's 8th GGparents...they the parents of:
>
>1. Petrona de Isla married Diego Delgadillo (I have 13 children in file for this couple)
>
>2. Mariana Sandobal Isla married 12 Oct 1661 to (Nicolas Estrada Mexia, son of Lorenso Mexia y Isabel Ines/Ynes Estrada).( I only have two children in file for this couple).
>
>3. Bernardina Sandobal Isla - bapt

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Hi Robert,

Did you post a comment/s to my posting, if so it did not show up ?

Pat Silva Corbera
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Hernandez"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Cc: "Juan Alvarez"
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 1:14:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] María de Islas y Moctezuma.

T-Mobile. America's First Nationwide 4G Network

Pat Corbera wrote:

>
>
>Jose Luis Felix, Juan Alvarez and list members,
>
>My Spanish reading skills are very limited mostly to the vital records that I have located online and from various member sharing/postings...
>
>My husband (Florentino L Corbera aka Tino)is related to Francisco Gonzalez Martinez y Magdalena de la Besares (this couple is Tino's 9th GGparents). They the parents of:
>
>Bernardino Gonzales de Isla, married on 21 Apr 1631 in Nochistlan, Zac. to (Mariana Moscoso y Sandoval, daughter of Juan Moscoso y Sandoval "el Viejo," y Catalina Cortes)... Bernardino and Mariana are Tino's 8th GGparents...they the parents of

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Jorge Luis,
Yo tambien desciendo de Maria de Islas y Moctezuma. Yo he supuesto que debe existir alguna una relacion con otros ancestros mios, Christobal Martinez Lozano y Maria de Isla. Una hija de este matrimonio, Catalina Lozano se caso con Bernardo Ruiz de Esparza, nieto de Petronila Moctezuma, lo que podria indicar algun tipo de relacion de la fusion de los apellidos. Sin embargo, la linea de tiempo no corresponde, ya que Catalina Lozano y Maria de Isla y Moctezuma debieron haber nacido muy cercana la una a la otra (circa 1605-10). Me interesaria muchisimo conocer la naturaleza de los datos de que dispensas que encontraste sugieren.

Jaime Alvarado

Comentario

Hola Jaime, efectivamente al igual que tú, creo que hay relación entre María de Islas, la mujer de Cristóbal Lozano y María de Islas y Moctezuma.
Pero hay algo que no me concuerda. En algunas ocasiones he leído que dicen que María de Islas, la mujer de Cristóbal Lozano, es hija de Francisco González Martínez y de Magdalena de Lavezzares. Y la dispensa que yo encontré menciona que Magdalena de Lavezzares tuvo una hermana llamada María de Islas, pero fue la mujer de Andrés Martín Camacho. Lo que no puedo comprender son los rangos en las fechas.
¿Entonces María de Islas y Moctezuma es tía de María de Islas, mujer de Cristóbal Lozano? Las fechas que tengo me hacen ubicarlas como hermanas más bien, pero dos hermanas con el mismo nombre tampoco me concuerda.
Esta es la anotación que hice en mis notas: "... sabe que son bisnietos de dos hermanas que lo fueron doña María de Islas y doña Magdalena de Lavezzares, quien tuvo por hijo a Bernardino de Islas, y Bernardino de Islas a Nicolás de

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Comentario

Disculpen Jorge Luis y Jaime:Yo tambien tengo una confucion que me gustaria aclarar,yo desiendo de Bernardino De Islas nacido en 1607 en Nochistlan,Zacatecas,y murio en 05 enero 1680,hijo de Francisco Gonzalez Martinez y de Maria Magdalena de la Vezzari ,en tonces el apellido de Islas de donde lo adopta ?,de su tia Maria de Islas?Yo desciendo de Juan de Dios Felix y de Bernardina de Islas,hija de Bernardino de Islas y de Mariana de Sandoval Cortes,hija de Julio Moscoso y Sandoval y de Cathalina Cortez.Bueno esta seria otra controversia que me gustaria aclarar con ustedes.
Jose Luis Felix.
Perris California.

> From: georgio_2386@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 20:53:10 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] María de Islas y Moctezuma.
>
> Hola Jaime, efectivamente al igual que tú, creo que hay relación entre María de Islas, la mujer de Cristóbal Lozano y María de Islas y Moctezuma.
> Pero hay algo que no me concuerda. En algunas ocasiones he

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Jose Luis Felix, Juan Alvarez and list members,

My Spanish reading skills are very limited mostly to the vital records that I have located online and from various member sharing/postings...

My husband (Florentino L Corbera aka Tino)is related to Francisco Gonzalez Martinez y Magdalena de la Besares (this couple is Tino's 9th GGparents). They the parents of:

Bernardino Gonzales de Isla, married on 21 Apr 1631 in Nochistlan, Zac. to (Mariana Moscoso y Sandoval, daughter of Juan Moscoso y Sandoval "el Viejo," y Catalina Cortes)... Bernardino and Mariana are Tino's 8th GGparents...they the parents of:

1. Petrona de Isla married Diego Delgadillo (I have 13 children in file for this couple)

2. Mariana Sandobal Isla married 12 Oct 1661 to (Nicolas Estrada Mexia, son of Lorenso Mexia y Isabel Ines/Ynes Estrada).( I only have two children in file for this couple).

3. Bernardina Sandobal Isla - bapt 29 May 1651 Nochistlan. I do not have marriage/spousal information on Bernardina...

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Pat:The family line is the same,only the names have some variations like(Petrona,Petra,Petronila) married with Diego Delgadillo.Is the same person.
This is the information I have of Bernardina de Islas.
Acta de Bautismo Transcrita de Bernardina de Islas:En veinte i nueve de mayo de seissientos sinquenta años bautice y puso los santos olios a Bernardina ija de Bernardino de Islas Mariana de Sandobal,fueron padrinos ,Diego Delgadillo i Petra de Islas Testigos,besinos de este partido de Nochistlan firma Antonio de LLamas.
Solicitud de Matrimonio de Juan de Dios Felix y Bernardina de Islas:Juan de Dios Felis,soltero,nacido en la ciudad de Zacatecas,y Asistente a mas de 10 años en la jurisdiccion de Jerez,hijo legitimo de Nicolas Felis,difunto y de Francisca de Peralta.Pretende contraer matrimonio eclesiastico en Jerez con Bernardina de Islas,feligres y vecina del pueblo de Nochistlan. Firmo.Testigos: 1.- Pedro Carrillo,vecino de la Jurisdiccion.Declaro conocer al pretenso desde muy niño

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Comentario

Jose Luis Felix,

Thank you for replying to my posting...it appears that you and my husband are related, sharing common ancestors of Bernardino de Islas y Mariana de Sandoval.

I will be forwarding Tino's lines from your direct line ancestor Bernandina's two sisters...both being Tino's direct lines...

Think you so much for sharing this wonderful information...

To be continued...
Pat Silva Corbera
Florentino L Corbera (aka Tino)

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 20, 2013, at 2:56 PM, jose luis felix wrote:

> Pat:The family line is the same,only the names have some variations like(Petrona,Petra,Petronila) married with Diego Delgadillo.Is the same person.
> This is the information I have of Bernardina de Islas.
> Acta de Bautismo Transcrita de Bernardina de Islas:En veinte i nueve de mayo de seissientos sinquenta años bautice y puso los santos olios a Bernardina ija de Bernardino de Islas Mariana de Sandobal,fueron padrinos ,Diego Delgadillo i Petra de Islas Testigos,besinos de este

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Hello, speaking of these Lozanos and Islas, can someone tell me who are the parents of Cristóbal Martín Lozano the husband of María González de Isla....and does he have a sister - Catalina Lozano De Frias or (is this same lady) Catalina Ruiz de Lozano who is married to Bernardo Ruiz De Esparza, thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: Patricia Corbera
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Cc: Juan Alvarez
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] María de Islas y Moctezuma.

Jose Luis Felix,

Thank you for replying to my posting...it appears that you and my husband are related, sharing common ancestors of Bernardino de Islas y Mariana de Sandoval.

I will be forwarding Tino's lines from your direct line ancestor Bernandina's two sisters...both being Tino's direct lines...

Think you so much for sharing this wonderful information...

To be continued...
Pat Silva Corbera
Florentino L Corbera (aka Tino)

Sent from my iPad

On

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

The only Ruiz de Esparza that I have in my husband's ancestry is a Francisca Ruiz de Esparza b. abt 1651 Mexico - married 6 Mar 1669 El Sagrario, Aguascalientes, Mexico to Nicolas Duran. Sorry but I do not have the names o Francisca's parents.
Nicolas is the son of Juan Simon Duran and Regina de Aguayo.
Pat Silva Corbera

----- Original Message -----
From: "phyls esparza"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 9:44:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] María de Islas y Moctezuma, who is her husband?

Hello, speaking of these Lozanos and Islas, can someone tell me who are the parents of Cristóbal Martín Lozano the husband of María González de Isla....and does he have a sister - Catalina Lozano De Frias or (is this same lady) Catalina Ruiz de Lozano who is married to Bernardo Ruiz De Esparza, thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: Patricia Corbera
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Cc: Juan Alvarez
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 2:26 PM
Subject: Re

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Comentario

I also descend from Cristóbal Martín Lozano and María González de Isla. I
provided info on his parents at
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/21352based on the 10 Volume
work
*Retoños de España* by Mariano González Leal.

The parents of Catalina de Lozano, wife of Bernardo Ruiz de Esparza, are
mentioned in the testament of Bernardo which was transcribed by Bill
Figueroa at http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/15316

2013/7/23 phyls esparza

> Hello, speaking of these Lozanos and Islas, can someone tell me who are
> the parents of Cristóbal Martín Lozano the husband of María González de
> Isla....and does he have a sister - Catalina Lozano De Frias or (is this
> same lady) Catalina Ruiz de Lozano who is married to Bernardo Ruiz De
> Esparza, thanks
>

Comentario

Jose Luis Felix,

Thank you for replying to my posting...it appears that you and my husband are related, sharing common ancestors of Bernardino de Islas y Mariana de Sandoval.

I will be forwarding Tino's lines from your direct line ancestor Bernandina's two sisters...both being Tino's direct lines...

Think you so much for sharing this wonderful information...

To be continued...
Pat Silva Corbera
Florentino L Corbera (aka Tino)

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 20, 2013, at 2:56 PM, jose luis felix wrote:

> Pat:The family line is the same,only the names have some variations like(Petrona,Petra,Petronila) married with Diego Delgadillo.Is the same person.
> This is the information I have of Bernardina de Islas.
> Acta de Bautismo Transcrita de Bernardina de Islas:En veinte i nueve de mayo de seissientos sinquenta años bautice y puso los santos olios a Bernardina ija de Bernardino de Islas Mariana de Sandobal,fueron padrinos ,Diego Delgadillo i Petra de Islas Testigos,besinos de este

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Jose Luis Felix, Juan Alvarez and list members,

My Spanish reading skills are very limited mostly to the vital records that I have located online and from various member sharing/postings...

My husband (Florentino L Corbera aka Tino)is related to Francisco Gonzalez Martinez y Magdalena de la Besares (this couple is Tino's 9th GGparents). They the parents of:

Bernardino Gonzales de Isla, married on 21 Apr 1631 in Nochistlan, Zac. to (Mariana Moscoso y Sandoval, daughter of Juan Moscoso y Sandoval "el Viejo," y Catalina Cortes)... Bernardino and Mariana are Tino's 8th GGparents...they the parents of:

1. Petrona de Isla married Diego Delgadillo (I have 13 children in file for this couple)

2. Mariana Sandobal Isla married 12 Oct 1661 to (Nicolas Estrada Mexia, son of Lorenso Mexia y Isabel Ines/Ynes Estrada).( I only have two children in file for this couple).

3. Bernardina Sandobal Isla - bapt 29 May 1651 Nochistlan. I do not have marriage/spousal information on Bernardina...

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Edgar Olguin Diaz
hola
ramirez
me podrias ayudarme
donde puedo encontrar esta dispensa de esta pareja de jose diaz de leon y catarina de islas? ya que menciona a maria de islas
o me podrias pasar el enlace
ya que yo desciendo de maria de islas y moctezuma y andres martin sotomayor
te lo agradeceria mucho
saludos

Comentario

Edgar Olguin Diaz
Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez
te lo agradezco mucho amigo
por el dato que me mandastes
ya que con este documento se comprueba
de que maria de islas y magdalena de labesares
muchas gracias
estamos en contacto

Comentario

Estimados miembros,

No sé si este dato ayude con Maria de Isla y Moctezuma pues no tengo un vínculo claro, pero encontré esta dispensa del Arzobizapdo de Guadaljara en 1705 que menciona a un Marcos de Montezuma "cacique de Chalco, arzobizpado de Mexico:"

La mención está en la página derecha hacia abajo:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18380-25218-21?cc=1874591&wc…

La dispensa empieza en la imagen 54

Ahora va lo complicado, la extracción de la información:
(1) Marcos de Montezuma casó con (2)Magdalena de Escobar. Ellos fueron padres de:
(3)María de Escobar, difunta antes de 1705. No sé porque usaba el apellido materno.
María casó con (4)Joseph de Guzmán y tuvieron un hijo (5) Alvaro de Guzmán ca. 1667.
Ahora, asumiendo 30 años en promedio por generación eso pondría el natalicio de María de Escobar en 1637 y el de su padre Marcos de Montezuma en 1607.

En realidad la dispensa se enfoca en Alvaro,de 38 años en 1705 quien está emparentado en cuarto

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Estimados Jaime y Jorge,

Al parecer sigue siendo una gran incognita, o más bien una serie de incógnitas lo relacionado a María de Isla Moctezuma Lavezares, ó fueron varías personas?

Gracias a Datos que en gran parte fueron investigados por Don Guillermo Tovar, sabemos con claridad que Benito de Isla casado con Magdalena Lavezares fueron padres de

Magdalena de Lavezares y

María de Isla

La primera debió ser la mayor y nacer cerca de 1585, casó con Fco González Martínez por 1605 y tuvieron a Bernardino de Isla González en 1607 en Nochistlán

En cuanto a María de Isla comienza la confusión, ya que una dama así llamada casó por 1610-1615 con Cristóbal Martínez Lozano y tuvieron al parecer los siguientes hijos:

Jacinto nc 1612
Cristóbal
Isabel que casó 26-feb-1637 con Diego Delgado
Leonor b 22-may-1617 , que casó en 1650 con Bernabé Merino
María de Isla Lozano que casó por 1636 con Juan de Araisa Medina
Magdalena Lozano Isla b7-sep-1619 que casó 15-feb-1635 Miguel

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Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Encontré ya el dato que pensaba nos daría el apellido Moctezuma de la María de Isla que usaba ese apellido y que casó en 1667 con Agustín López de la Cerda.

Ella como ya lo dije era nieta de María de Isla Lavezares y Andrés Martín de Sotomayor; era hija de Joseph Martín Sotomayor Isla que casó el 1-sep-1638 con..........ANA VICENTE MONTAÑÉS DÍAZ MEDEL.

Este dato lo aporta un trabajo de Mary Lou Montagna y Ofelia Márquez aparecido en el Genealogical Journal Vol IV de 1998. De acuerdo a esto :

Ana Vicente Montañés bautizada 28-may-1626, fué hija de Juan Montañés Vicente y su PRIMERA esposa Sebastiana Díaz Medel Domínguez.

Entonces, para que su hija María apareciera como Moctezuma, debía ser porque entre la sangre Díaz Medel o en la Domínguez viniera mezclada, ya que Juan Montañés era peninsular vecino de Salamanca, España y sus padres eran de León, España.

Mary Lou Montagna nos da los datos de los padres y abuelos de Sebastiana Díaz Medel, así, la tarea de buscar

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Comentario

Edgar Olguin Diaz

buenos dias peredo

una pregunta

de donde son originarios la pareja miguelo diaz y maria medel?
aqui mencionas que son de guanajuato

tienes informacion de ellos? como matrimonio testamento dispensas ...

yo soy descedientes de pedro alonso de los inojos y ana dominguez medel

te lo agradeceria mucho
que tengas un excelente dia
saludos

Comentario

Carlos Peredo

Edgar buenos días

Lo que tengo respecto a maría Medel y Miguel Díaz es lo que publicó Mary Lou Montagna en una edición de Somos Primos de 1998 :

THE GENEALOGY OF JUAN MONTANEZ AND HIS DESCENDANTS
IN AGUASCAL1ENTES, JALISCO, SAN LUIS POTOSI, AND ZACATECAS

By MARY LOU MONTAGNA

Published in the Society of Hispanic Historical and Ancestral Research,
Journal IV, (c) 1998 edited by Mary Lou Montagna and Ophelia Marquez

Ahí Mary Lou nos comparte el contenido del testamento de Juan Montañés fechado el 26-sep-1648 en que que declara que su primer esposa fue Sebastiana Díaz, hija de Miguel Díaz vecino de Guanajuato y María Medel; también menciona que los abuelos de Sebastiana eran por el lado paterno Martín Alonso y Juana Sánchez y que por el materno eran Pedro Medel vecino de Lagos y Ana Domínguez.

En lo anterior habrá que aclarar porqué el papá de Miguel Díaz se llamó Martín alosno, supongo que su nombre completo sería Martín Alonso Díaz, pero falta comprobarlo.

Saludos

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Comentario

Edgar Olguin Diaz
buenas tardes peredo

una pregunta donde puedo encontrar este testamento?

tienes el archivo de este testamento?
me lo podrias pasar te lo agradezceria mucho

que tenga sun excelente dia
saludos

Cristobal Macias

Published by dcalonso –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

I'm trying to see if anyone has information on a Cristobal Macias, probably
Cristobal Macias Valadez, he would be a child of one of the early Macias
Valdez, and he was p

Comentarios

Comentario

Hola Danny,

I have some Macias Valades in my paternal ancestry. However, I found no Cristobal Macias among my records.

Out of curiosity, I entered a couple of names @ FamilySearch and came up with these records:

Joseph Damasio Masias Balades
Baptism: 04 Oct 1733 @ Nuestra Señora de la Asuncion, Jalostotitlan, Jalisco, Mexico
Birth: 22? Sep 1733 (Espanol, 12? days old)
Parents: Cristobal Masias Balades, Maria Exmere Guilda (Hermenegilda?) Gutierres
Padrinos: Juan de Dios Gutierres, Petronila Delgadillo
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N57Q-74D
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N57Q-746
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GB94-4T?i=389&cc=18745…
Image: 390, Record # 2315, pg. 351, Film # 004238928

Vicente Ferrer Gomez & Maria Cayetana Masias Balades
Marriage: 21 Apr 1755 @ Nuestra Señora de la Asuncion, Jalostotitlan, Jalisco, Mexico
Groom’s parents: Joseph Gomez, Thereza Arias Maldonado
Bride’s parents: Cristobal Masias Balades

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Comentario

Danny:
Es posible, aunque no se puede asegurar a ciencia cierta, que se trate del sacerdote Cristobal Macias Barreto, quien atendia los feligreses de Teocaltiche y Mezticacán, y al parecer este Cristobal Macias Barreto es el mismo hijo de Blas Macias y Catalina Ramirez, cuyo bautizo menciona Marcelina Macias.

Saludos

Comentario

Marcelina and Miguel

I think my Cristobal Macias is probably the same as one of your Cristobal Macias, but I don't think each of your Cristobal Macias's are the same. I don't think the priest from Teocaltiche known as Cristobal Macias Barreto is the same as the Cristobal Macias that was baptized in 1553 in Mexico City. My Spanish is not very good, but on Historias y Recuerdos de Encarnacion de Diaz it says:

En documentos de la época, el Bachiller Cristóbal Macías, fue registrado también como "El Padre Cristóbal Macías Barreto", el cual a través de prestanombres recibió varias mercedes, la primera fue hecha el 8 de Abril de 1563, por la Real Audiencia de la Nueva Galicia a Pedro Barbero como "un sitio de Ganado Mayor, tres leguas de la estancia del Padre Cuenca, que llaman de Los Sauces, junto a una ciénega de tule y carrizo, junto a la dicha ciénega, esta por la parte de abajo una mata de encinas gruesas de bellotas dulces, que están en un llano, junto al propio rió y muchas tunas

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Thank you Consuelo. I think those Cristobal Macias's were born too late to
be my Cristobal Macias, who I think was probably born in the late 1500s or
maybe early 1600s, but I appreciate your response.

Danny C. Alonso

Comentario

Hola Danny:

No se gran cosa sobre los tempranos Macías pero encontré el siguiente registro:

"México, Distrito Federal, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1514-1970", database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJ8Y-1JMY : 28 July 2015), Cristobal Macias Ramirez, 1553.

Espero que te sea de utilidad.

Marcelina

Batres in Zacatecas/Aguascalientes

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Genealogy Research

Hola a todos. I am researching the Batres line in Zacatecas/Aguascalientes. This was my paternal grandfather’s mother’s line.

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Comentario

What are the names of the specific people you're looking for? It's easier
to search if we know the couple's name.

Danny C. Alonso

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 5:00 PM, Spam wrote:

> Hola a todos. I am researching the Batres line in
> Zacatecas/Aguascalientes. This was my paternal grandfather’s mother’s line.
> I have only been able to go back to late 1800s using familysearch.org
> http://familysearch.org/&gt;. Does anyone have family information or ideas
> on how to expand the search in this area? I’m glad to share what I have
> found so far with anyone out there who may have connections to this family
> name.
>
> Estoy en proceso de investigar la familia Batres en Zac./Aguas. Ésta fue
> la familia de la madre de mi abuelo paterno. Hasta ahora sólo llego a fines
> de los años 1800 usando familysearch.org .
> ¿Alguién tiene más información familiar ó ideas en cómo mejorar la búsqueda
> en este ámbito? Dispuesto a compartir lo que he descubierto con quienquiera
> tenga mas conexiones con

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